Stator or Starter?

[scrambyjess]

Juz got a cbr1000 '06, A couple of times when I tried to start after refuelling or 15-30mins interval, the engine juz cranks *sometimes juz 'click' and wont start. After a couple of more tries the engine does eventually fires up. Read on forum the problem is quite common among the older cbr models including mine, culprit usually lies on the stator or rectifier/regulator. Heard from other friends the who faced the same problem on their yamaha the problem is with the starter motor, as the ignition just 'click' and wouldn't start. How can I find out which is really giving me the problems? Charging system or starter motor? its hard for my mech to diagnose as the problem acts up randomly.. My battery is brand new 12cells ballastic. Volt meter before ignition is 12.6 -13, during riding is 13.9 - 14. Thank you for any suggestions.

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[ezzyoiler]

A CDI failure is the last thing on your mind....

a dying cdi most times caused other weak.. electrical/electronics failures..

many may have replaced those failures before the dying cdi is identified and scewing it up..
check this out...for all you know this may be it..

[Lexanez]

Mmm, get your starter carbon brushes checked, might be them if your batteries are working fine.

[kinwei]

A CDI failure is the last thing on your mind....

a dying cdi most times caused other weak.. electrical/electronics failures..

many may have replaced those failures before the dying cdi is identified and scewing it up..
check this out...for all you know this may be it..

FI bike no more CDI. Timing by ECU and spark by the ignition coil.

Yes, I also suspect starter brush wearing out.

[naim]

either that or cud be ur starter relay.

[ben1112]

FI bike no more CDI. Timing by ECU and spark by the ignition coil.

Yes, I also suspect starter brush wearing out.

I 2nd that. Your voltage readings are fine, so it means the electric juice goes all the way to the starter relay. If the starter relay clicks, probably means its fine too. So after the relay is the starter motor. Service yr starter motor free of carbon and check brushes. Sometimes carbon buildup between the motor armature plates and short the motor out.

[naim]

Nt sure if its d same wif other bikes, but my phantom had this problem oso wif a faulty relay. Got click frm relay but it doesnt start. Shorted d relay then can crank.

[ben1112]

Nt sure if its d same wif other bikes, but my phantom had this problem oso wif a faulty relay. Got click frm relay but it doesnt start. Shorted d relay then can crank.

May be. If starter service alr still cannot, most likely it would have been isolated to the relay.

[ezzyoiler]

FI bike no more CDI. Timing by ECU and spark by the ignition coil.

Yes, I also suspect starter brush wearing out.

pardon my ignorance...
is there a rectfier on the bike??/

check this...if this goes haywire...it doesa lot of damage to other circuits too.

[kinwei]

pardon my ignorance...
is there a rectfier on the bike??/

check this...if this goes haywire...it doesa lot of damage to other circuits too.

All bikes still have rectifier to convert AC to DC.

[ezzyoiler]

i thought condenser dischsrge ignition...cdi...is being the dominant system..
efi...electronic fuek injection.....believe also need this cdi...capacitor to store energy to the high tension coil for discharge..
efi maybe have other energy storage ....please correct me if i am wrong.trying o figure out how the energy is stored prior to discharge...anyone??

[scrambyjess]

Reading from forums and it all revolves around stator, rectifier and starter motor..

[ben1112]

i thought condenser dischsrge ignition...cdi...is being the dominant system..
efi...electronic fuek injection.....believe also need this cdi...capacitor to store energy to the high tension coil for discharge..
efi maybe have other energy storage ....please correct me if i am wrong.trying o figure out how the energy is stored prior to discharge...anyone??

Hi bro, cdi = capacitive discharge ignition. Means the electrical charge is stored in a capacitor and fires to the HT coil to bump up the voltage to a few Ks Volt. EFI = Electronic fuel injection. Means the fuel is injected into the intake port of the engine electronically via a fuel injector.

These are two different things. An EFI bike can also have a CDI.

As for yr last question. The electrical charge is store in the capacitor of the CDI and triggered when the flywheel mark/bump passes through the pickup coil and sends a pulse to the CDI to fire the HT coil and Spark plug. I hope you can understand how i put it.

[ben1112]

pardon my ignorance...
is there a rectfier on the bike??/

check this...if this goes haywire...it doesa lot of damage to other circuits too.

Hi, on most bikes the Voltage rectifier and regulator are housed in a single unit. A rectifier is use to convert a sine wave AC signal into a linear DC output. A regulator ensures the voltage is kept below a certain amount. Therefore these work hand in hand to provide a stable 12-14V DC from a fluctuating AC voltage produced buy the Stator Coil.

[ezzyoiler]

Hi bro, cdi = capacitive discharge ignition. Means the electrical charge is stored in a capacitor and fires to the HT coil to bump up the voltage to a few Ks Volt. EFI = Electronic fuel injection. Means the fuel is injected into the intake port of the engine electronically via a fuel injector.

These are two different things. An EFI bike can also have a CDI.

As for yr last question. The electrical charge is store in the capacitor of the CDI and triggered when the flywheel mark/bump passes through the pickup coil and sends a pulse to the CDI to fire the HT coil and Spark plug. I hope you can understand how i put it.

THANK YOU...
someone mentioned efi no cdi...i am surprised ..i thought my god i am obsolete..

[kinwei]

THANK YOU...
someone mentioned efi no cdi...i am surprised ..i thought my god i am obsolete..

Well, you can always try finding a CDI inside a EFI bike. I believe all EFI are using another method (Inductive Ignition system?) which I don't know the actual term. CDI are almost obsolete, in a way.

Anyway I found a link which might be informative,

http://www.gill.co.uk/products/digit...n/1_whyuse.asp

[ben1112]

Well, you can always try finding a CDI inside a EFI bike. I believe all EFI are using another method (Inductive Ignition system?) which I don't know the actual term. CDI are almost obsolete, in a way.

Anyway I found a link which might be informative,

http://www.gill.co.uk/products/digit...n/1_whyuse.asp

I agree with you that CDIs are slowly becoming obsolete. But currently is transitioning from CDI/Carb to full EFI. There are still some bikes that are inbetween, particularly lower end FI systems.

[kinwei]

There are still some bikes that are inbetween, particularly lower end FI systems.

This is informative. I thought all EFI have convert to the new system because my past few EFI bikes are all on the new system. Learnt something today.

[ezzyoiler]

Inductive discharge ignition systems were developed in the 19th century as a means to ignite the air-fuel mixture in the combustion chamber of internal combustion engines. The first versions were magnetos, which were offered as a more effective alternative to the older-design hot-tube ignitors that had been utilized earlier on hot tube engines. With the advent of small stationary engines; and with the development of the automobile, engine-driven tractors, and engine-driven trucks; first the magneto and later the distributor-type systems were utilized as part of an efficient and reliable engine ignition system on commercially-available motorized equipment. These systems were in widespread use on all cars and trucks through the 1960s. Manufacturers such as Ford, General Motors, Chrysler, Citroen, Mercedes, John Deere, International Harvester, and many others incorporated them into their products. The inductive discharge system is still extensively used today. Most people today are familiar with it as a "points-type" ignition system.


these inductive ignition system are found pre 1970...where platinum points needed to be cleaned/changed regularly..

the cdi is still the dorminent systm..
latest system have the a high tenion coils in the spark plug cover/cap...ie individual ht coil..eliminating the ht cable....older versions have 1 large capacitor for all spark plugs

[ben1112]

Very good sharing. Thanks all.

[ezzyoiler]

an example of a intergrated ht coil in spark cap....making it a very compact andsmall unit...thus the high tension cable is not neccesary...

[ezzyoiler]

thisis sometime know as coil on plug...cop for short...
another image...this are found in cars....i have not seen any on bikes yet..not surprised on the latest bike.

[kinwei]

an example of a intergrated ht coil in spark cap....making it a very compact andsmall unit...thus the high tension cable is not neccesary...

Yup. This is the ignition coil. Which is why I stated previously, timing by ECU and spark by the ignition coil. Meaning the power come straight from the rotor/stator unit to the ignition coil then to the spark plug. Timing is control by ECU. No more going thru a capacitor and hence no CDI. Or am I wrong? Or should the correct term called Electronic ignition? Hahaha, I am also confused liao.

[kinwei]

thisis sometime know as coil on plug...cop for short...
another image...this are found in cars....i have not seen any on bikes yet..not surprised on the latest bike.

This look interesting. Haven't see this on cars before. Most of the cars I seen, have the same ignition coil found on bikes. This is more on high performance car? I doubt it will applies for bike cause usually engine space is quite compact. Usually air box above the plug at least thats what happening on most sport bike. The normal ignition coil will be more compact.

[ezzyoiler]

i am no mechanic...but the source of energy comes from capacitor..after charging by battery or the alternator....so what replaces the capacitor..
the ecu is just a controller...which controls the various function.s...???..just like the cdi, but more complex....
in the cdi sys..pulsar coil in the stator send signal to cdi to instruct the capaxitor the timing of energy of discharge.ie send the energy to the ht coils..so what repkaces this energy storage/discharge method??

[kinwei]

i am no mechanic...but the source of energy comes from capacitor..after charging by battery or the alternator....so what replaces the capacitor..
the ecu is just a controller...which controls the various function.s...???..just like the cdi, but more complex....
in the cdi sys..pulsar coil in the stator send signal to cdi to instruct the capaxitor the timing of energy of discharge.ie send the energy to the ht coils..so what repkaces this energy storage/discharge method??

Apperantely the modern vehicle are really using the inductive ignition method. Meaning no more charging up using a capcitor. Meaning just using the alternator (stator and magnet) to provide the high voltage to the ign coil without the need of going thru a capacitor. Anyway I found another article which might prove informative?

http://www.nzefi.com/inductive-ignition-systems/

I also just google here and there for information. It only then I knew about this inductive ignition system. But I'm pretty sure there is no more CDI in at least those EFI bikes I had. Cause I DIY mainly, I couldn't find any CDI module inside.

Just learning here through friendly discussion

[ezzyoiler]

i see..
the individual high tension coil on plug..dwell time is able to store the reqired enegy in between discharge...so no need capacitor..
thank you for the infor..