Whats the difference between V-Twin engine and single cylinder engine?

[Redir]

Hi there,
wld like to know whats the difference between V-Twin engine and single cylinder engine? (comparing with the same stroke eg:- 4 stroke engine)

Any advantages and disadvantages between the two type of engine?
eg:- maintenance wise (how much engine oil use? how many spark plug use?) , pick up, engine vibration... etc

Thanks in advance...

[kifakw]

Do you mean V twin engine versus IL-4 engine?

[Redir]

IL-4 engine?.... sorry not sure abt that

mmmm....how abt i give an example
a V-twin engine from honda varadero 125 and a single cylinder engine from derbi terra 125

any diff between them?

[JackOHJack]

single cylinder

v twin

in short, a v twin has 2 cylinders.

so, single cylinder vs 2 cylinders

in reality though, i never ride v twin b4, so dunno diff leh?

single cylinder on a small bike, may b able to feel the vibration quite a bit, i suppose.

[mild_slevin]

if I'm not wrong, V twin have better torque than standard in-line four engine.

To my curiousity, I wonder why super four have such crisp and smooth engine sound compare to a CUB. I'm not talking about the cap of the engine, but rather interested in which part of it does the magic.

[mild_slevin]

Originally Posted by Redir

IL-4 engine?.... sorry not sure abt that

mmmm....how abt i give an example
a V-twin engine from honda varadero 125 and a single cylinder engine from derbi terra 125

any diff between them?

IL-4 = In Line 4 engine. Example are Honda CB400, Fazer 600.

[kaiq]

In short. V-twin => better pick-up speed but lower top speed. It's also noiser and "rougher".

[Demon]

For big capacity bikes (class 2), only the Enduro bikes fall into these categories. Both have their strength and weakness.

Originally Posted by Redir

Hi there,
wld like to know whats the difference between V-Twin engine and single cylinder engine? (comparing with the same stroke eg:- 4 stroke engine)

Any advantages and disadvantages between the two type of engine?
eg:- maintenance wise (how much engine oil use? how many spark plug use?) , pick up, engine vibration... etc

Thanks in advance...

Typically, given the same engine capacity, more cylinders translate to smoother ride, and better top speed. However Single Cylinders are better at low down power which is better for technical riding.

Being a single cylinder especially with big capacity, it inherently vibrates more than a V-twin, thus it is affectionately known as Thumpers

Some thumpers have two spark plugs, so these bikes will have as many plugs as some V-twins.

Being a Single, it has less moving parts, requires less tuning such as valve clearance, carb balancing, thus lower maintenance. Having one big engine block instead of two smaller ones mean there is more room thus better access which means ease of repair and maintenance especially when doing emergency repair in the middle of trail.

Engine oil capacity depends more on the engine capacity and its design, ie. wet sump or dry sump than if it's a Thumper or V-Twin.

[JackOHJack]

Originally Posted by mild_slevin

if I'm not wrong, V twin have better torque than standard in-line four engine.

To my curiousity, I wonder why super four have such crisp and smooth engine sound compare to a CUB. I'm not talking about the cap of the engine, but rather interested in which part of it does the magic.

in line 4 meaning it has 4 cylinders ma. so in order to produce a certain torque, the load is shared among the 4 - less vibration = less noise. whereas in a cub, if we full throttle for torque, can feel the engine damn hiong, coz more vibration.

analogy - if u use 1 leg to "run" 2.4km, confirm that leg shagged, and u sure make a lot of noise. but if use 2 legs to run 2.4km, the load is shared, not that shagged, and less noise made.

i think for multi cylinders there is also the difference of simultaneous combustion vs sequential combustion. meaning all 4 explode at the same time vs 2 by 2. difference is again less or more vibration/ moment produced.

[Demon]

Originally Posted by JackOHJack

i think for multi cylinders there is also the difference of simultaneous combustion vs sequential combustion. meaning all 4 explode at the same time vs 2 by 2. difference is again less or more vibration/ moment produced.

there is no such thing as simultaneous firing, it will break the crank shaft.

Even for engine with as many as 16 cylinders, there is always a firing order and one at time. Typically, if the cylinders are lay out in a V-configuration, the firing order will always fire on alternate bank to minimise stress on the crank shaft.

[DM]

if we were to compare 2 engines of the same displacement side by side,
lesser cylinders = more torque but less hp
more cylinders = less torque but more hp

[SV650]

Originally Posted by Demon

there is no such thing as simultaneous firing, it will break the crank shaft.

Even for engine with as many as 16 cylinders, there is always a firing order and one at time. Typically, if the cylinders are lay out in a V-configuration, the firing order will always fire on alternate bank to minimise stress on the crank shaft.

Interesting statement on "all 4 explode at the same time vs 2 by 2".

Redir,
In Singapore market, most of the bikes come in 1 cylinder (Thumper), 2 cylinders (V-Twin / Parallel Twin / Boxer), 3 cylinders (Triple.) and 4 cylinders (V-4 / In-Line 4). You would probably see Triples in class 2 bikes as I've not come across any triples for class 2A bikes to my best knowledge.

Depending on your personnal preference of bikes, single cylinder & V-twins gives more torque (i.e better pick up) but limited by top speed. In-line 4, lesser torque, but better top speed. That is characteristics of the engine design.

Most engines come with 1 spark plug per cylinder. There are some exception, with twin spark plugs per cylinder. Routine maintenance wise, it's pretty much the same, be it single or in-line 4 (i.e. engine oil, spark plug, oil filter, air filter etc). When it comes to major maintenance (usually recommended at 80,000km for most bikes), then it's gonna cost a little more for valve clearance when it comes to in-line 4 as compare to single cylinder or v-twin. This is the result of more mechanical parts for in-line 4 engines.

As some of the guys have explained, single / v-twins have more vibration as compare to in-line 4. It boils down to personnal preference. For me, I am riding a V-twin for 8.5 years and I'm addicted to the vibration. I'll feel something is missing if I hop onto an in-line 4 because I'm so accustomed to the vibration and torque of V-twins.

[JackOHJack]

Originally Posted by Demon

there is no such thing as simultaneous firing, it will break the crank shaft.

Even for engine with as many as 16 cylinders, there is always a firing order and one at time. Typically, if the cylinders are lay out in a V-configuration, the firing order will always fire on alternate bank to minimise stress on the crank shaft.

Originally Posted by SV650

I guess JackOHJack got the sequential combustion from some articles on the new R1. Interesting on how he put the message across.

Redir,
In Singapore market, most of the bikes come in 1 cylinder (Thumper), 2 cylinders (V-Twin / Parallel Twin / Boxer), 3 cylinders (Triple.) and 4 cylinders (V-4 / In-Line 4). You would probably see Triples in class 2 bikes as I've not come across any triples for class 2A bikes to my best knowledge.

Depending on your personnal preference of bikes, single cylinder & V-twins gives more torque (i.e better pick up) but limited by top speed. In-line 4, lesser torque, but better top speed. That is characteristics of the engine design.

Most engines come with 1 spark plug per cylinder. There are some exception, with twin spark plugs per cylinder. Routine maintenance wise, it's pretty much the same, be it single or in-line 4 (i.e. engine oil, spark plug, oil filter, air filter etc). When it comes to major maintenance (usually recommended at 80,000km for most bikes), then it's gonna cost a little more for valve clearance when it comes to in-line 4 as compare to single cylinder or v-twin. This is the result of more mechanical parts for in-line 4 engines.

As some of the guys have explained, single / v-twins have more vibration as compare to in-line 4. It boils down to personnal preference. For me, I am riding a V-twin for 8.5 years and I'm addicted to the vibration. I'll feel something is missing if I hop onto an in-line 4 because I'm so accustomed to the vibration and torque of V-twins.

eh? that was what i gathered from the following articles:

1) Chopper v twin engine
http://www.custom-choppers-guide.com/v-twin.html

"But a Harley engine has two pistons, and the crankshaft has only one pin (in the design above, which is a common design, there are two crank pins for the connecting rods which the pistons connect to), and both pistons are connected to it.

So the pistons fire almost at the same time. Whereas in the example above they fire at different intervals."

2) Ducati MotoGP 2003 engine design http://www.motorcycledaily.com/04feb...atimotogp.html

"But further analysis led us to decide that the best solution was a ‘double twin’ and therefore we designed an engine with four round pistons which, thanks to a simultaneous two-by-two firing order, reproduce the working cycle of a twin. This will generate the ‘big bang’ effect, making the rear tyre work in a way that extends its duration and improves rider feeling when exiting curves."

ps ps, no 4 explode at the same time. think at most is 2 by 2 vs 1 by 1 by 1 by 1...

[SV650]

Originally Posted by JackOHJack

eh? that was what i gathered from the following articles:

1) Chopper v twin engine
http://www.custom-choppers-guide.com/v-twin.html

"But a Harley engine has two pistons, and the crankshaft has only one pin (in the design above, which is a common design, there are two crank pins for the connecting rods which the pistons connect to), and both pistons are connected to it.

So the pistons fire almost at the same time. Whereas in the example above they fire at different intervals."

2) Ducati MotoGP 2003 engine design http://www.motorcycledaily.com/04feb...atimotogp.html

"But further analysis led us to decide that the best solution was a ‘double twin’ and therefore we designed an engine with four round pistons which, thanks to a simultaneous two-by-two firing order, reproduce the working cycle of a twin. This will generate the ‘big bang’ effect, making the rear tyre work in a way that extends its duration and improves rider feeling when exiting curves."

ps ps, no 4 explode at the same time. think at most is 2 by 2 vs 1 by 1 by 1 by 1...

1. The pistons fire almost the same time, but not firing together. It's almost the same due to the angle difference between the 1st and 2nd cylinder. i.e 45 / 60 / 90 deg V-Twin.

2. Moto GP bike engine design is very different from production bikes running on the road. Production bikes fire one cylinder at anyone time.

[JackOHJack]

Originally Posted by SV650

1. The pistons fire almost the same time, but not firing together. It's almost the same due to the angle difference between the 1st and 2nd cylinder. i.e 45 / 60 / 90 deg V-Twin.

2. Moto GP bike engine design is very different from production bikes running on the road. Production bikes fire one cylinder at anyone time.

thx for clearing it up!

[SV650]

[endlessloop]

The interesting thing of the much touted 2010-to-be-released Honda VFR1200F is that it's V4 firing interval is configured to be essentially "two parallel twin".

[Redir]

thanks everyone for the info.....

[JackOHJack]

Originally Posted by endlessloop

The interesting thing of the much touted 2010-to-be-released Honda VFR1200F is that it's V4 firing interval is configured to be essentially "two parallel twin".

which means it's gonna be among the pioneer for bike production "2 by 2"? fwa, means more torque?

[endlessloop]

Originally Posted by JackOHJack

which means it's gonna be among the pioneer for bike production "2 by 2"? fwa, means more torque?

For race bikes and large displacement performance bikes, huge amount of torque will almost be there. Issue is the huge torque may displace tyre grip. So the aim at this level, will be to deliver and maximise high torque, at the right time, at the limit of grip.

The VFR1200 may be trying to give the best of both worlds:
- Imitate the twin-big bang of twins that seem to be able to maximise grip
- Yet provide 4 cylinders to up revs (and for civilian use, tame smoother ride).
So 4 cylinders timed to deliver like twin, but really having higher revs.
You can see that in current Honda RCV, Yamaha M1 and Kawasaki MotoGP race bikes. Also in the current crossplane crank inline4 2010 R1.

The timing intervals can be described almost like wave patterns (like sin-wave) along a torque and a time axis.

I suspect it is not two 100% overlapping waves, but two overlapping-but slightly apart waves.

I rode before the STX1300, also a V4. Compared to previous big bore inline4, I really could gas the big fellow out of corners with much greater confidence without fear of losing grip. Could be the big-bang effect. I think the VFR1200 is a follow up and further refinement of what this Honda already had.

[DM]

on the topic of engines, does anybody know where in the rpm range is an inline engine's sweet spot? eg. 0-100%, 0 represents 0 rpm and 100% being redline.. is there a specific range where inline 4 engines can be ridden without stressing the engine too much but at the same time, still exploiting it's power?

[refuscra]

i am a spam whore.

[endlessloop]

Originally Posted by Flea.

on the topic of engines, does anybody know where in the rpm range is an inline engine's sweet spot? eg. 0-100%, 0 represents 0 rpm and 100% being redline.. is there a specific range where inline 4 engines can be ridden without stressing the engine too much but at the same time, still exploiting it's power?

Each bike model has different engine characteristic. It's better to have it's horsepower/torque chart.

To illustrate, here is a Honda Super4 horsepower chart.



Go to http://media.photobucket.com/image/h...cc15-12-07.jpg
to see the large picture.

When the torque curve is rising (that is, becoming steeper in angle), the engine is becoming more efficient. The sensation the rider has is usually the engine feels more and more powerful, more and more meaty, or more and more tight. And the engine urge you to twist the throttle even more. Think Kawasaki ZX-10 Ninja.

When the torque curve is totally flat (engine efficiency is maintained), the rider will not feel the pull. But as you turn the throttle more, the rpm of the engine will rise. Even when the engine efficiency is maintained, the rising rpm means more work done and the bike will accelerate.
While the rider may not feel the bike is powerful, a flat torque curve is desireable to go fast. It is found in well designed race bikes, as well as road-going sport bikes (think Honda). It lets the rider dare to apply throttle withhold being intimidated.

When the torque curve is dipping (engine efficiency drops), the rider will feel the engine becoming soft, or dead spot, or becoming stretchy like a rubber band.

If you see most bike's engine chart, torque curve will start to rise at the beginning, then it becomes flat, then it eventually declines.
The horsepower will rise generally throughout, it peaks somepoint well AFTER the torque curve declines.


So to answer your question, the sweet spot is usually starts from where the torque curve starts to rise, to it becomes flat, to where peak horsepower is. That is the time to change to the next highest gear. If no more higher gear, that's it. That's the fastest your bike can go.

So for the Super4, based on the attached chart, it's sweet spot is actually very big. From about 6.5K to 12.5k rpm. You can actually see the twin torque hill (effect of the Super4 twin cam VTEC).

If the bike is well designed, I am guessing if you upshift at 12.5k rpm, the next gear will start the engine ramming up at somewhere around 8k-9k rpm, so you have about 3k-4k of rpm to pull before it's time to upshift again. I'm not riding a super4 now. Someone can help confirm my this guess.

This is for if you really want to go real fast.
Having such a long sweep spot, if you want to conserve fuel, you can "short shift". That is upshift to the next highest gear, well before you hit 12.5K rpm.
How soon or how long you want to drag is up to you. But the Super4 is so well designed that it offers a very broad stretch of sweep spot where the engine delivers it's power. And this sweet spot is accessible at a relatively low 6.5k rpm.

[Blahhh]

Originally Posted by mild_slevin

To my curiousity, I wonder why super four have such crisp and smooth engine sound compare to a CUB. I'm not talking about the cap of the engine, but rather interested in which part of it does the magic.

Because of it's inline-four engine. Simply say, cub = 1 piston, 1 carb, s4 4 pistons, 4 carbs, 16 valves. Which is why R125s, R150s, CBR125 will never sound anything like its bigger brothers..

As soon as I read the topic, I knew this question was posted by someone new to riding who wants to make a decision between a 2b single cylinder bike and a 2b vtwin bike... so please, keep that inline four, or torque curve range thing out of the way, you all are going to confuse the poor guy ..

My opinion on the matter is, a vtwin need to have some omph to feel its power. So I will definitely stay away from a 125cc/200cc vtwin engine..

[kifakw]

v twin engine produces a very unique sound. eg rvf, hd, dragstar, vtr.

[^kY^]

Originally Posted by SV650

1. The pistons fire almost the same time, but not firing together. It's almost the same due to the angle difference between the 1st and 2nd cylinder. i.e 45 / 60 / 90 deg V-Twin.

2. Moto GP bike engine design is very different from production bikes running on the road. Production bikes fire one cylinder at anyone time.

its just a matter of time before all this things get into production bikes... The 2009 R1 for eg already has cross plane crank shaft that results in a rather non-uniform firing pattern...

[thenation]

Originally Posted by kifakw

v twin engine produces a very unique sound. eg rvf, hd, dragstar, vtr.

RVF has a V-Four engine. It sounds quite different from a V-Twin powered bike.

[kifakw]

Originally Posted by thenation

RVF has a V-Four engine. It sounds quite different from a V-Twin powered bike.

forgot that rvf vfr is a V4 instead of a V2

yups, do agree RVF sounds very different from V twin powered.

[SV650]

Originally Posted by ^kY^

its just a matter of time before all this things get into production bikes... The 2009 R1 for eg already has cross plane crank shaft that results in a rather non-uniform firing pattern...

Yup.

[Redir]

thanks blahhh...and the rest of u..who had contributed to the discussion....

[KeraKing]

if u thinking about 2b bikes, don't think too much.
get a two stroke bike.
faster, yet easier to mantain and simpler engine.

Originally Posted by Blahhh

My opinion on the matter is, a vtwin need to have some omph to feel its power. So I will definitely stay away from a 125cc/200cc vtwin engine..