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Thread: Possible petition against using PSB approve helmets only

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    icz3r
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    Post Possible petition against using PSB approve helmets only



    Hi all i know this is a very old thread http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums...no-PSB-sticker!
    but looking at everyones views why not we pentioned against it? I don't know if it has been done before.

    That DOT,SNELL & ECE standards should also be recognized due to their trustworthy and international recognition.

    It should be recognized in at least some degree.

    What are your views?

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    Isopropyl
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    i doubt it will happen.

    i think by now most should know it all about money. no PSB approved where the money coming from?

     

     
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    you dunno our PSB standards is even more atas than DOT, ECE, SNELL standards meh?

    All other testing agencies in the world have to bow to PSB and seek their approval..
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    icz3r
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    Quote Originally Posted by aRcHeR View Post
    you dunno our PSB standards is even more atas than DOT, ECE, SNELL standards meh?

    All other testing agencies in the world have to bow to PSB and seek their approval..
    Understood. But at least we have to try so that some lee way can be given. PSB testing may also not be the best as compared to dot and ece.
    If we manage to mass about 10-50k we would have somw voice.

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    They continue approve electrical products lah haha

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    Every county adopts differeng standards for different items of use.

    Helmets

    USA - DOSS 218 & SNELL M2005
    Europe - EN22.05

    As these are the biggest markets to the helmets manufacturers, thus the labeling seen on helmets today.

    Singapore's Standard for Helmets is certified under PSB by LAW. And Singapore is consider a very small market for these Helmet manufacturers and thus have to be batch tested in order to obtain the PSB Certification aka PSB Sticker.

    Bottom line is... Having a petition will not work mainly because PSB is the foundation of all items used in Singapore. Basicaly SS aka Singapore Standard.

    I too wear a non-PSB Label Helmet, but a ECE EN22.05 Certified Helmet. Because like most riders locally, its a risk I take in terms eyes of the LAW as I persoanlly have seen how PSB testing facilities which I have no/and will not comment.

    Been riding for a while since the early 90s, have yet to hear or experienced any rider being pull over for not wearing a PSB Helmet.

    Well... my personal safety is more important than the *€£# Sticker, LOL!!!
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    many ppl wear non psb approve helmets bec some shop sell them and are cheaper than the official distributor example shoei and arai helmets. I have not know anyone who got caught wearing non psb approve helmet, but if sway sway something happen will it be affected by the pay out by those personal accident insurance

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    icz3r
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    Ok roger.
    Just though we can do something for all the riders in Singapore.

    Anyways for a good read you can click the link below
    https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&r...61190604,d.aGc

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    Quote Originally Posted by icz3r View Post
    Ok roger.
    Just though we can do something for all the riders in Singapore.

    Anyways for a good read you can click the link below
    https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&r...61190604,d.aGc
    well written good job

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    Quote Originally Posted by icz3r View Post
    Ok roger.
    Just though we can do something for all the riders in Singapore.

    Anyways for a good read you can click the link below
    https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&r...61190604,d.aGc
    really well written.. for a new bird like me who hasn't even passed TP yet, i'm considering what kind of helmet to get in the future when i do ride on the roads.. currently using evo rs959 v3 for my learning..
    what's mentioned in the article is really helpful.. it doesn't make sense for a $40 bucks psb approved helmet to be in the same league as those worn in Moto GP.. guess our money is really flowing to some dubious avenues.. haih..

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    di_andrei
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    The question is - do we know of any examples of riders being stopped and fined for using an unapproved high-end full face helmet (Arai, Shoei, Nolan, AGV, Caberg, Schuberth, Shark)? Because I think the TP is likely to apply common sense and not fine people unless they use a sub-standard helmet, skull cap type, or other helmets not really ment for motorbike riding.

    What I'm saying is why bother with a petition, if the current rule has no impact on us?

     

     
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    I wrote in to TP/LTA before on PSB approved helmets. They are aware that there are many good quality helmets that are not approved because it is too costly for the dealer to do so. (Case-in-point: HJC and Shark full face helmets worn by MotoGP/WSBK racers.) They told me that they will review the regulation and will be soliciting feedback from the industry and the public. However I doubt the approval system will be scrapped. The process will probably be tweaked to make it easier and less costly for helmets to get tested.

    That said, I don't think TP will stop you if you wear a good quality non-PSB-approved helmet (e.g. imported Arai full face, HJC RPHA-10, etc.) TPs are riders themselves, and they know that your imported Arai is much safer than an PSB-approved LAB open face. They would rather catch speeding buses or overloaded lorries.
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    no wonder, whenever i helmet browse, sales person never fail to indicate

    "FOR EXPORT USE ONLY"


    hell, even ah boy helmets are psb approved lol...
    looking for drz parts, any parts will do!

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    As long as PSB is a profitable venture, the broke ass govt. aint gonna change the rules. One of the best ways though would be to just buy non-psb helmets to the point that dealers start complaining. The govt will respond by cracking down. Then we respond to the crackdown by writing to the international community and helmet manufacturers and start shaming Singapore.

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    "One rider, who gave his name only as Boy, said: “You mean to tell me that a made-in-China $40 PSB-approved helmet is better than my $800 non-PSB approved helmet, which is worn by riders in MotoGP?"
    - best part of the whole report.

    One possible solution is for the world to agree to the standard. And all insurance companies to agree to insurance coverage for it. That's what people are concerned about when they put a psb approved helmet on.

    My agv with psb sticker is about 200dollars more than the one without... sigh... Pay and pay lo...

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    123456789000
    Last edited by vvv; 30-07-2015 at 11:41 AM.

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    Welcome to Singapore

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    This PSB regulation really makes the selection a lot lesser, really hope this will be changed in the future..

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    mechwira
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    i also have not heard of anyone being fined for wearing a proper high-end helmet without psb sticker. i myself have been stopped for routine checks several times wearing different HJC full face and the TP did not even bother to check for sticker, even though i was asked to removed the helmet. of coz all my hjc have had stickers, but they're on the inside and not visible unless TP really check, but they have never bothered.

    i do have heard of ppl being fined for obvious unsafe helmets, such as half helmets or heavy tints. my conclusion is therefore that TP applies common sense in enforcement rather than a strict sticker-or-no-sticker.

    in any case, i dun think this issue is relevant today. 15 years ago when i first started riding, not a single full face helmet carried the psb sticker, because the authorities and some riders actually believed full face helmets to be pure fashion and actually unsafe for use. today almost all mid-range full face like hjc or shark already carry sticker by default. i therefore find the issue rather moot. i have no problem getting a full face that i like which is also certified.

    i also have not heard of any accident victim being denied compensation from insurance because he was wearing uncertified helmet. technically, the insurance company must prove that the helmet was unsafe and increased the injury; the court will not accept a simple "no sticker therefore no compensation". if the rider was wearing a genuine bu uncertified arai, the insurance company should have no argument because the helmet would have been safe by PSB standards anyway. by contrast, if the rider was wearing a skull cap helmet, then indeed the insurance company can argue for reduced compensation on account of that helmet increasing the injury compared to a proper certified helmet. but i have not heard of any of these cases.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    For me I'm not worry about having PSB or not. I am more worried of those fake Arai spoiling the market of real Arai. Really scare one day garmen banned Arai because too many uncertified fake Arai on the street... you get the idea...

    But I think TP catch is those with obviously issues, eg like tinted visors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiq View Post
    For me I'm not worry about having PSB or not. I am more worried of those fake Arai spoiling the market of real Arai. Really scare one day garmen banned Arai because too many uncertified fake Arai on the street... you get the idea...

    But I think TP catch is those with obviously issues, eg like tinted visors.
    i agree the fake arai is a real problem, though i donno how widespread is it in s'pore today. in any case, govt will not be able to ban arai helmets just for all the fake ones. thats coz arai is a valid business entity, and their genuine products as long as technically meeting our safety standards cannot be banned just because of fake arai, which is not the fault of genuine arai.

    what can happen is they issue circular to TP telling them to check for PSB sticker everytime they see any arai helmet, to ensure the helmet is tested safe (by PSB of coz), as opposed to an unsafe untested imitation. this means if you have a genuine arai but no PSB sticker, then you cannot prove to the TP that your helmet is genuine; plus TP will no longer care if genuine arai, because circular has been issued: must check means must check, no sticker means must summon.

    and then eventually for easier enforcement they will then extend this compulsory checks to all high end helmets in case any high end of other brand also have pirated version. then we're back to square one.

    the bigger question for me is as a biker why the hell would you put on your head a fake helmet for which the guy who makes it has no concern about its quality other than its looks.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

     

     
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    Probably those fake Arai have better quality than those open-faced helmets with PSB - better cushion linings, better visor, better stuffs etc IF you compare with a cheapo PSB helmet.

    Compare with real Arai... neber read any comparison review on it before...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiq View Post
    Probably those fake Arai have better quality than those open-faced helmets with PSB - better cushion linings, better visor, better stuffs etc IF you compare with a cheapo PSB helmet.

    Compare with real Arai... neber read any comparison review on it before...
    You say probably, i say maybe. I would never put on a fake arai, and yes i would rather put on a cheapo but certified helmet like givi or gpr or wateva rather than a fake arai.

    My logic is simple. At least i know with the cheapo certified helmet it has at least passed some minimum standard. Obviously i would rather have my ECE certified full face any day, but i'm just comparing a cheapo psb and a fake arai.

    Furthermore, with a 'real' brand, even if the manufacturer cut cost he will at least have a minimum standard if for no other reason than to protect his brand name. The manufacturer of the fake arai on the other hand couldn care less if his helmet splits in half falling off the table; he has no need to protect any brand name.

    But thats just me.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    Helmets with PSB stickers seem to be more enforced in driving schools than on the road.
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    Dont insurance companies ask if you're wearing PSB approved helmets when you're claiming from them after an accident?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kicson View Post
    Dont insurance companies ask if you're wearing PSB approved helmets when you're claiming from them after an accident?
    i am wondering about this as well? anyone with experience regarding this?

    personally, i would buy a helmet with certification from reputable organisation such as snell, dot, ece, sharp etc, not saying psb is bad, but we don't know how they test the helmets, very little or no information provided, whereas the international standards lay out the different tests they did to the helmets

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    Im curious about this too. The instructors at CDC always try n scare us that insurance cannot claim

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    i'm going to try to explain how insurance works.

    when you are in an accident, even if you wear psb helmet, even if you were in the right, the relevant insurance company can give any bullcrap reason not to pay you compensation. it can be as stupid as the other guilty party refusing to bring his car in for assessment. thats because it is not a 'crime' for an insurance company to play you out in any way they can.

    and so, if they can use non-psb helmet as an excuse, they will tell you fly kite. but its not just non-psb helmet, they can give any stupid reason.

    your only recourse is to engage your own private lawyer to sue and claim the insurance company. this is then taken to court. when (or if) a court has decided how much compensation you deserve, thats when the insurance company suck thumb must comply, because it is now a court order.

    if the helmet issue is brought to court, technically speaking a non-psb helmet will not automatically deny you of compensation; in fact the insurer must prove to the court that your non-psb helmet was unsafe and contributed to your damages/injury. if the insurer bring the helmet sample, drop it in front of judge and it breaks into pieces, suck thumb your insurer win, they dun need give you full compensation. on the other hand, if the helmet passes all psb tests even though your retailer didn send it for testing, you win, the judge will order full compensation. including your lawyer fee (i think).

    of coz, if your insurer in the first place dun play you out, then all this is avoided. most times though, the insurers are fully aware how the court will decide and whether they are playing you out. which is why most times, a lawyer's letter to your insurer is all it takes to get things going. only if they know they are in the right will they bother calling your bluff and challenging your lawyer in court.

    know your rights. in the past few years i realize there are less knowledgeable ppl out there who have been denied full compensation because the insurer give nonsense reasons and the victim mistakenly thinks its the end of it coz insurer say dowan to pay, nothing more to say.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    i'm going to try to explain how insurance works.

    when you are in an accident, even if you wear psb helmet, even if you were in the right, the relevant insurance company can give any bullcrap reason not to pay you compensation. it can be as stupid as the other guilty party refusing to bring his car in for assessment. thats because it is not a 'crime' for an insurance company to play you out in any way they can.

    and so, if they can use non-psb helmet as an excuse, they will tell you fly kite. but its not just non-psb helmet, they can give any stupid reason.

    your only recourse is to engage your own private lawyer to sue and claim the insurance company. this is then taken to court. when (or if) a court has decided how much compensation you deserve, thats when the insurance company suck thumb must comply, because it is now a court order.

    if the helmet issue is brought to court, technically speaking a non-psb helmet will not automatically deny you of compensation; in fact the insurer must prove to the court that your non-psb helmet was unsafe and contributed to your damages/injury. if the insurer bring the helmet sample, drop it in front of judge and it breaks into pieces, suck thumb your insurer win, they dun need give you full compensation. on the other hand, if the helmet passes all psb tests even though your retailer didn send it for testing, you win, the judge will order full compensation. including your lawyer fee (i think).

    of coz, if your insurer in the first place dun play you out, then all this is avoided. most times though, the insurers are fully aware how the court will decide and whether they are playing you out. which is why most times, a lawyer's letter to your insurer is all it takes to get things going. only if they know they are in the right will they bother calling your bluff and challenging your lawyer in court.

    know your rights. in the past few years i realize there are less knowledgeable ppl out there who have been denied full compensation because the insurer give nonsense reasons and the victim mistakenly thinks its the end of it coz insurer say dowan to pay, nothing more to say.
    Wow, thanks for the explanation. So the moral of the story is fight on if you are in the right - non-PSB helmet, if safe, shouldn't be an issue. Were you in the insurance industry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fand View Post
    Wow, thanks for the explanation. So the moral of the story is fight on if you are in the right - non-PSB helmet, if safe, shouldn't be an issue. Were you in the insurance industry?
    no. not in industry.

    just happened to have a colleague a few years ago involved in car accident where other party suspected drunk. when tried to submit claim against other party's insurer, the insurer essentially said "Sorry, if drunk then we are not liable, and we've been asking him to bring his car for assessment and he has been ignoring us, so we really can't do anything".

    so my colleague engaged private lawyer. who sent a letter to the insurer. and immediately the insurer chased their client to submit car for assessment and invited my colleague and lawyer for settlement discussion.

    the helmet issue is just something i read in general about how the court works.


    and to clarify, the idea that "non-psb helmet if safe shouldn be an issue" is only if/when it gets fought over in court. before it reaches the court, TP still can saman you for wearing non-psb, and if you want to avoid the helmet issue altogether then of coz wearing psb in the first place automatically makes the insurer unable to bring up the issue at all. AND you have to aware of the possibility that it turns out the non-psb helmet really wont pass PSB test after all, in which case you're screwed.
    Last edited by mechwira; 27-12-2015 at 05:39 PM.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    Yes sometimes tp will ask you if your helmet is psb approved when you get into an accident.
    Esp if you riding something like a harley or vespa
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    The PSB regulation don't know how long will it take to secure bikers from using helmet during riding. Hopefully in the future this regulation will maintain accordingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    i'm going to try to explain how insurance works.

    when you are in an accident, even if you wear psb helmet, even if you were in the right, the relevant insurance company can give any bullcrap reason not to pay you compensation. it can be as stupid as the other guilty party refusing to bring his car in for assessment. thats because it is not a 'crime' for an insurance company to play you out in any way they can.

    and so, if they can use non-psb helmet as an excuse, they will tell you fly kite. but its not just non-psb helmet, they can give any stupid reason.

    your only recourse is to engage your own private lawyer to sue and claim the insurance company. this is then taken to court. when (or if) a court has decided how much compensation you deserve, thats when the insurance company suck thumb must comply, because it is now a court order.

    if the helmet issue is brought to court, technically speaking a non-psb helmet will not automatically deny you of compensation; in fact the insurer must prove to the court that your non-psb helmet was unsafe and contributed to your damages/injury. if the insurer bring the helmet sample, drop it in front of judge and it breaks into pieces, suck thumb your insurer win, they dun need give you full compensation. on the other hand, if the helmet passes all psb tests even though your retailer didn send it for testing, you win, the judge will order full compensation. including your lawyer fee (i think).

    of coz, if your insurer in the first place dun play you out, then all this is avoided. most times though, the insurers are fully aware how the court will decide and whether they are playing you out. which is why most times, a lawyer's letter to your insurer is all it takes to get things going. only if they know they are in the right will they bother calling your bluff and challenging your lawyer in court.

    know your rights. in the past few years i realize there are less knowledgeable ppl out there who have been denied full compensation because the insurer give nonsense reasons and the victim mistakenly thinks its the end of it coz insurer say dowan to pay, nothing more to say.
    that was long, but thank you, at least I am more knowledgeable now! So I guess, just buy a PSB approved helmet to be safe, in terms of both rider protection and insurance claim. Of course, choose the helmet that is also tested with other testing organisations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by euphonium07 View Post
    that was long, but thank you, at least I am more knowledgeable now! So I guess, just buy a PSB approved helmet to be safe, in terms of both rider protection and insurance claim. Of course, choose the helmet that is also tested with other testing organisations.
    I second that. We r typical kiasu singaporeans. Everything must double confirm

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