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Thread: Caution buying used bikes

  1. #101
    blackness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac View Post
    Interesting thread. Btw TS started this thread by cautioning against buying from private sellers. I disagree. I would rather buy from private sellers than shops. Shops are more likely to do some works to cover up defects as compared to private sellers. Sellers most likely would have checked with shops' take in price before pricing their sales. Why let shops earn if you can sell it yourself? Shops also normally take in at ridiculously low price to make money.

    With regards to sellers' pricing, it is demand and supply, and up to both parties to negotiate. I personally think it is wrong to go around disturbing ppl's thread, in the name of doing justice. Everyone has their own perception of fair value. Some value Honda's reliability, some value certain Italian brands, some prefer German, some just like the bike. So they decide for themselves how much they willing to pay. You definitely can't say all bikes got ZERO value end of 10 years. Basically no matter what you or I say, the market forces will determine the sales.

    Btw I found this previous thread started by the TS, highlighting the important part in bold.



    http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums...ces?highlight=
    Hahaha and the TS is posting unconstructive replies himself.

    To others out there. You have to accept the fact: bike prices are rising, whether it's second or first hand. If you don't want to spend much on a brand new, you only have 3 options:
    1) suck thumb and buy an expensive secondhand
    2) don't own a bike at all
    3) keep lurking at the second hand market waiting for a good deal, which you may never get what you want

  2. #102
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    Now we have people telling us to accept buying bikes at high prices. Buyers out there, what do you think?

     

     
  3. #103
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    while you're at it, include car buyers too.

    tell car buyers not to accept that current car prices especially secondhand are very high.

    car buyers out there, what do you think?

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    while you're at it, include car buyers too.

    tell car buyers not to accept that current car prices especially secondhand are very high.

    car buyers out there, what do you think?
    Ya...ask in mycarforum. Dun need shoot here shoot there. Be mature

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    Dun need shoot here shoot there. Be mature
    sure bro. i'll ask again my points in a very mature, professional manner.

    1) Depreciation is an approximate percentage drop based on market demand. it is generally accepted that any japanese car/bike will depreciate up to 20% immediately upon purchase, and thereafter approximately 10% annually. buy a new GSX-R1000 for (i think) $32K, and immediately as a secondhand its value is about 80%, about $25.6k, even one month after purchase. thereafter in its second year, its value drop about another 10%, about $23k. this depreciation rate may climb higher the older the bike gets. continental bike/car though has lower depreciation percentage.

    is this calculation of depreciation wrong?

    2)a brand new Ducati Panigale by my estimation is about $45k. going by your formula, this bike's depreciation is $45k / 10 years = $4.5k annually. a brand new GSX-R100o is $32k. same formula, depreciation of $3.2k annually. feel free to correct my price. by this calculation, the ducati has a higher depreciation than the suzuki.

    is this correct? if your formula is correct but ducati supposed to have lower depreciation, please explain the discrepancy. or is your formula correct and ducati indeed has a higher depreciation than a suzuki?

    3)for several years since car COE went sky-high, second hand car prices also went up. price of 6-year old hyundai avante from dealer (not unrealistic private seller) is 45-50k; the same price as the car when it was brand new six years ago.

    are we to expect the trend to be different for bikes? or are drivers suppose to in some way also 'not accept' these high prices? how do we go about 'not accepting' these prices and still be able to buy bike/car at 'reasonably low' prices?

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    Ya...ask in mycarforum. Dun need shoot here shoot there. Be mature
    on a personal note. tread starter asking someone to be mature? have you forgot how you called me an idiot after enquiring on my Super 4 and getting an unfavourable reply. or you need a screenshot to remind you.

  7. #107
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    he's probably a professional market analyst who deals with statistics and depreciation trends of fixed assets. we childish commoners will never apprehend his concept.

    teambhp i suggest you consolidate all good deals, classify them into class 2,2A,2B, so that our fellow riders can buy a bike that's not overpriced. This is more constructive than simply shooting down expensive bike sales. A mature person like you should also answer questions. I refer to my previous post with 3 options to which you answered
    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    Now we have people telling us to accept buying bikes at high prices. Buyers out there, what do you think?
    do you have other options for potential buyers out there?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamsk View Post
    Let say I buy that busa at $7.5k and renew coe immediately at 6k. So total I would have forked out $13.5k to ride the busa for another 10yrs. So depreciation will be $1350 per year. Does this calculation make sense?

    bro, wud u do this? essentially fork out 13.5K CASH for a 10 yr old hayabusa?
    Liverpool revival has started....

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by kzone View Post
    bro, wud u do this? essentially fork out 13.5K CASH for a 10 yr old hayabusa?
    Up for awareness

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    so sianz... COE still so high, no $$$ to buy new bikes.
    Old bikes prices also going up, not worth it to buy...

    but still itchy to change bike... sianz. any bike rental companies here?
    Liverpool revival has started....

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    That's why I single out that Busa in earlier posts. Crazy price. As for whether body is worth 4k,we won't be able to give a fair value until the bike is brought to shop for inspection.
    Wait, I thought you said all the bikes with expired COE are worth zero, what do you need to inspect?

     

     
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    Quote Originally Posted by di_andrei View Post
    Wait, I thought you said all the bikes with expired COE are worth zero, what do you need to inspect?
    Yes.it's zero value. But if you buying to renew coe,then better get an inspection. You dun wanna be saddled with a problematic bike

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    nonetheless, i still disagree with the idea that a bike's value drop to $0 upon COE expiry. i think $4k is a fair price for the haya with expiring COE. plus 7k for COE, that works out to one-third the price of a brand new haya, for a ten-year old that can go another ten years. that guy's asking price is way too high, but neither is the bike worthless.
    Spot on. A lot of second hand asking prices are too high, but we have to remember, these are ASKING prices, not the price that these bikes end up selling at. Buyers often negotiate a discount. Regardless, the bike is not worthless at the end of the COE period and depreciation cannot be calculated as price divided by remaining COE years.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    Yes.it's zero value. But if you buying to renew coe,then better get an inspection. You dun wanna be saddled with a problematic bike
    Zero value? Do you have a free 10 year old Hayabusa? Because I'm very interested.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by di_andrei View Post
    Zero value? Do you have a free 10 year old Hayabusa? Because I'm very interested.
    You sound like a child. Go toys r us

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    You sound like a child. Go toys r us
    i will re-ask di_andrei's point in a mature manner.

    if a bike's value is zero at ten years as you have claimed, why then is there a need to assess the condition of the hayabusa to determine its worth? does it not mean that regardless of whether the bike is in good or poor condition, its worth is still zero?

    i await your response to all the questions that have been raised thus far.

    thank you.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    i will re-ask di_andrei's point in a mature manner.

    if a bike's value is zero at ten years as you have claimed, why then is there a need to assess the condition of the hayabusa to determine its worth? does it not mean that regardless of whether the bike is in good or poor condition, its worth is still zero?

    i await your response to all the questions that have been raised thus far.

    thank you.
    Yes, its still zero. U can scrap it as smelly metal to get cash

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    sure bro. i'll ask again my points in a very mature, professional manner.

    1) Depreciation is an approximate percentage drop based on market demand. it is generally accepted that any japanese car/bike will depreciate up to 20% immediately upon purchase, and thereafter approximately 10% annually. buy a new GSX-R1000 for (i think) $32K, and immediately as a secondhand its value is about 80%, about $25.6k, even one month after purchase. thereafter in its second year, its value drop about another 10%, about $23k. this depreciation rate may climb higher the older the bike gets. continental bike/car though has lower depreciation percentage.

    is this calculation of depreciation wrong?

    2)a brand new Ducati Panigale by my estimation is about $45k. going by your formula, this bike's depreciation is $45k / 10 years = $4.5k annually. a brand new GSX-R100o is $32k. same formula, depreciation of $3.2k annually. feel free to correct my price. by this calculation, the ducati has a higher depreciation than the suzuki.

    is this correct? if your formula is correct but ducati supposed to have lower depreciation, please explain the discrepancy. or is your formula correct and ducati indeed has a higher depreciation than a suzuki?

    3)for several years since car COE went sky-high, second hand car prices also went up. price of 6-year old hyundai avante from dealer (not unrealistic private seller) is 45-50k; the same price as the car when it was brand new six years ago.

    are we to expect the trend to be different for bikes? or are drivers suppose to in some way also 'not accept' these high prices? how do we go about 'not accepting' these prices and still be able to buy bike/car at 'reasonably low' prices?
    If a buyer can accept these prices, then fine.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by calebike View Post
    on a personal note. tread starter asking someone to be mature? have you forgot how you called me an idiot after enquiring on my Super 4 and getting an unfavourable reply. or you need a screenshot to remind you.
    Yep. I need a screenshot. If not,dun tarnish my name

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackness View Post
    he's probably a professional market analyst who deals with statistics and depreciation trends of fixed assets. we childish commoners will never apprehend his concept.

    teambhp i suggest you consolidate all good deals, classify them into class 2,2A,2B, so that our fellow riders can buy a bike that's not overpriced. This is more constructive than simply shooting down expensive bike sales. A mature person like you should also answer questions. I refer to my previous post with 3 options to which you answered
    do you have other options for potential buyers out there?
    Other options,if wanna buy, pay more for old n new bikes. If not, wait it out

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    Yes, its still zero. U can scrap it as smelly metal to get cash
    Thank you for the reply. And may I ask that you be maturein your response as well.

    To add further to di_andrei's point, if this is the case, why did you say that the hayabusa should be sent for inspection to see if it is worth 4k or any amount for that matter? Does this not mean that regardless of the bike's condition, it is still zero value?

    And to add further still, it is generally accepted that the value of secondhand goods, be it bikes or cars or any product, is actually how much it can be sold for in the secondhand market. People generally will not buy a ten year old bajaj pulsar at any price because nobody thinks it can last another ten years. Therefore its value is zero. On the other hand, people would be willing to buy a ten year old ducati, and therefore it has value which would be the average price it sells for.

    Is this concept of secondhand value wrong?

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

     

     
  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    If a buyer can accept these prices, then fine.
    Thank you again. However, you have not directly answered my question.

    Is my concept of depreciation wrong?

    Going by your formula, does it mean a ducati has a higher depreciation than an equivalent suzuki? If not, why does your formula show a discrepancy?

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    Thank you for the reply. And may I ask that you be maturein your response as well.

    To add further to di_andrei's point, if this is the case, why did you say that the hayabusa should be sent for inspection to see if it is worth 4k or any amount for that matter? Does this not mean that regardless of the bike's condition, it is still zero value?

    And to add further still, it is generally accepted that the value of secondhand goods, be it bikes or cars or any product, is actually how much it can be sold for in the secondhand market. People generally will not buy a ten year old bajaj pulsar at any price because nobody thinks it can last another ten years. Therefore its value is zero. On the other hand, people would be willing to buy a ten year old ducati, and therefore it has value which would be the average price it sells for.

    Is this concept of secondhand value wrong?
    Why you still dun get it? Never mind lah..I am beyond words already. Just say whatever you like

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    Dear Readers

    There are many bikes on sales in this forum. Some are from direct owners and some are from bikeshops.

    I would like to caution about buying from direct owners. Some of the questions you should think about are

    1) Owner has changed a lot of parts on the bike, added accesssories etc. Some even overhauled the engine and claim that bike is in good condtion. Think about it! Why would anyone in the world spend money to repair the bike, then sell it off to you?

    2) All bikes have wear and tear items. The older the bike, the more problematic it is. Yet there are sellers claiming that the bike is in prefect condtion. How is that possible? Even new bikes are not prefect.

    3) Assuming you find a really good offer. Seller dilligently maintain bike. Outlook is good. Wear and tear parts replaced and there are receipts to prove. You want to buy from him/her. Please think again. Outlook can be done nicely. Parts can be replaced by a good seller. One word of caution though....Internal leaks within the engine that cannot be seen by the naked eye.

    For example, if the bike has excessive oil consumption problem, you will not know it till you have clocked up some mileage. By the time you know, it is too late. How about coolant seeping into the combustion chamber slowly? It will be months later before the bike will give out smoke. Do you have recourse? Anwer is NO.

    Therefore, please buy with care and ride safe.
    Up for awareness

  25. #125
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    Going by your logic, every bike that renews COE is all worth the same value ie the prevailing COE PQP, since the machine value is zero upon expiry

    hwah!!! 10 yr old Ducati classic also same value as Phantom if renew COE....I also want....lol

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by filtered View Post
    Going by your logic, every bike that renews COE is all worth the same value ie the prevailing COE PQP, since the machine value is zero upon expiry

    hwah!!! 10 yr old Ducati classic also same value as Phantom if renew COE....I also want....lol
    hahahaha! but too bad, want cheap bikes must go toy r us. Maybe they have hayabusa there.

  27. #127
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    guys, why pick on teambhp's flawed logic when he also got a valid point which is that many 2nd hand bike sellers are asking for ridiculous amount espescially those nearing end of COE expiry. Let's ignore his unique "philisophy" of zero value after coe expiry which we all know is nonsense. He spending time to highlight overpriced bikes in this sales thread is commendable as it will help to give the newbies another perspective to a bike's value other than the seller's own.

    maybe the rest of us can balance this thread by providing real current examples of attractively priced bikes posted in the sales section here.
    Liverpool revival has started....

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by kzone View Post
    guys, why pick on teambhp's flawed logic when he also got a valid point which is that many 2nd hand bike sellers are asking for ridiculous amount espescially those nearing end of COE expiry. Let's ignore his unique "philisophy" of zero value after coe expiry which we all know is nonsense. He spending time to highlight overpriced bikes in this sales thread is commendable as it will help to give the newbies another perspective to a bike's value other than the seller's own.

    maybe the rest of us can balance this thread by providing real current examples of attractively priced bikes posted in the sales section here.
    i have never argued against the idea that a)one must be sure of the bike's condition before buying, and b)some sellers are asking for unrealistically high prices, and don't buy at such ridiculous prices.

    i would think the above is common sense, but maybe common sense is not common and its good advice nonetheless. i said so before that indeed some of the examples given are too high prices.

    i think at the end of the day, people started by politely pointing out that the concepts of depreciation and secondhand are completely wrong, which come on, this is a forum thats what its for isn it? but if it degenerates because the person insists he is correct, does not answer clear counterpoints and instead dismisses the valid counterpoints as immature, well.....

    i just think it is good that people correct wrong concepts, because if not others might take wrong concepts to be true.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    Dear Readers

    There are many bikes on sales in this forum. Some are from direct owners and some are from bikeshops.

    I would like to caution about buying from direct owners. Some of the questions you should think about are

    1) Owner has changed a lot of parts on the bike, added accesssories etc. Some even overhauled the engine and claim that bike is in good condtion. Think about it! Why would anyone in the world spend money to repair the bike, then sell it off to you?

    2) All bikes have wear and tear items. The older the bike, the more problematic it is. Yet there are sellers claiming that the bike is in prefect condtion. How is that possible? Even new bikes are not prefect.

    3) Assuming you find a really good offer. Seller dilligently maintain bike. Outlook is good. Wear and tear parts replaced and there are receipts to prove. You want to buy from him/her. Please think again. Outlook can be done nicely. Parts can be replaced by a good seller. One word of caution though....Internal leaks within the engine that cannot be seen by the naked eye.

    For example, if the bike has excessive oil consumption problem, you will not know it till you have clocked up some mileage. By the time you know, it is too late. How about coolant seeping into the combustion chamber slowly? It will be months later before the bike will give out smoke. Do you have recourse? Anwer is NO.

    Therefore, please buy with care and ride safe.
    1)He could be desperate, he could have alot of money or he could simply not care, not everyone is the same. You can't just lump everyone to have the same mindset as you do

    2)Perfect condition means its is problem free and runs without a hitch, I have had 10 year old bikes that needed nothing much, didnt break down. It could also be low mileage and never revved to the moon, kept in a corrosion free environment therefore very little wear and tear to speak of.

    3)Internal leaks you as the first owner of the bike also won't know until it rears its ugly head. Anyway define internal leaks.

    By your cautionary, don't buy bikes. Anyway if its cheap because it might have problems then gamble ah

  30. #130
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    Ok guys... How about pointing out attractively priced bikes in the sales section? Are there really any?

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    i have never argued against the idea that a)one must be sure of the bike's condition before buying, and b)some sellers are asking for unrealistically high prices, and don't buy at such ridiculous prices.

    i would think the above is common sense, but maybe common sense is not common and its good advice nonetheless. i said so before that indeed some of the examples given are too high prices.

    i think at the end of the day, people started by politely pointing out that the concepts of depreciation and secondhand are completely wrong, which come on, this is a forum thats what its for isn it? but if it degenerates because the person insists he is correct, does not answer clear counterpoints and instead dismisses the valid counterpoints as immature, well.....

    i just think it is good that people correct wrong concepts, because if not others might take wrong concepts to be true.
    agree with your last sentence... hope we have done enough so others can rightly identify what's right and what's flawed.

    now time to identify good buys!
    Liverpool revival has started....

     

     
  32. #132
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    Now awaiting people here to point out the value for money bikes

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    COE till April 2008 (slightly less than 3 yrs to expiry)
    Selling 11k
    Dep per year=$3666


    http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums...400-Revo-w-ABS

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    COE till April 2008 (slightly less than 3 yrs to expiry)
    Selling 9.8k
    Dep per year=$3266


    http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums...ition-for-sale

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    Liverpool revival has started....

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by kzone View Post
    teambhp, this one only $500plus per year. lol

    http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums...1984)-COE-2024
    Yep. We are providing info only.the buyers decide

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by kzone View Post
    wha...... you're kidding right....?



    oh wait.... you are!

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

  38. #138
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    Sharing my personal experience as a 1st timer 2B just passed rider hunting for bike.

    As usual, sourcing for a bike of my choice within my budget. Arrange to go viewing. At CP, test ride short distance (50m), have a bit of feel of the bike, look c look c......
    - Bike looks ok. just a bit of crack at the rear, looks ok to me.
    - Ride feel, a bit off balance, can't tell if it's the rider or the bike, also its on those tiled type carpark... so I blame on me (the rider)

    Then come my uncle, experienced biker, brought along a mechanics to help access the bike ..... OMG.....
    When I test ride, can't feel much (the only experience I have is Driving centre bike which is pretty crap, during expressway familiarisation ride at 80+ km/h the bike vibrate till like going to fall apart......
    Feedback.....
    - Fork not balanced (seems like the bike experience some frontal accident, but can be fix, not $XXX, commented hopefully the rider who goot the accident is ok.... !!! @_@)
    - Engine area (to me seems like simply dirty, but mech advice, engine gasket somewhere no good liao, got sign of slow leakage !!!)
    - sprocket ware off liao. time to replace
    - Chain might need replacement as well
    - tyre harden liao, better to replace for safety
    - brake working good... (heng)....

    OMG.... Bike over priced as well as advice by both Mech and my uncle.... okie.....

    End up I didn't buy the bike.


    Lesson... if you have uncle/auntie or relatives or friends have been riding for a long time, experienced, know people who can advice or help, seriously seek their help or advice in getting your first 2nd hand bike.
    Really more for safety and piece of mind riding.
    SG road already not safe for biker with tonnes of car simply change lane without signal, squeeze or push us bikers from behind staying so bloody close for comfort........

    So the last thing we want is a not reliable bike....

    Just sharing my personal experience... ; )

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    wha...... you're kidding right....?



    oh wait.... you are!
    errr.. I'm just stating facts
    Liverpool revival has started....

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    Quote Originally Posted by battle View Post
    Sharing my personal experience as a 1st timer 2B just passed rider hunting for bike.

    As usual, sourcing for a bike of my choice within my budget. Arrange to go viewing. At CP, test ride short distance (50m), have a bit of feel of the bike, look c look c......
    - Bike looks ok. just a bit of crack at the rear, looks ok to me.
    - Ride feel, a bit off balance, can't tell if it's the rider or the bike, also its on those tiled type carpark... so I blame on me (the rider)

    Then come my uncle, experienced biker, brought along a mechanics to help access the bike ..... OMG.....
    When I test ride, can't feel much (the only experience I have is Driving centre bike which is pretty crap, during expressway familiarisation ride at 80+ km/h the bike vibrate till like going to fall apart......
    Feedback.....
    - Fork not balanced (seems like the bike experience some frontal accident, but can be fix, not $XXX, commented hopefully the rider who goot the accident is ok.... !!! @_@)
    - Engine area (to me seems like simply dirty, but mech advice, engine gasket somewhere no good liao, got sign of slow leakage !!!)
    - sprocket ware off liao. time to replace
    - Chain might need replacement as well
    - tyre harden liao, better to replace for safety
    - brake working good... (heng)....

    OMG.... Bike over priced as well as advice by both Mech and my uncle.... okie.....

    End up I didn't buy the bike.


    Lesson... if you have uncle/auntie or relatives or friends have been riding for a long time, experienced, know people who can advice or help, seriously seek their help or advice in getting your first 2nd hand bike.
    Really more for safety and piece of mind riding.
    SG road already not safe for biker with tonnes of car simply change lane without signal, squeeze or push us bikers from behind staying so bloody close for comfort........

    So the last thing we want is a not reliable bike....

    Just sharing my personal experience... ; )
    for most bikes, I would factor in the cost of replacing those stuffs you mentioned even without testing. Exception is if i'm certain the owner treat the bikes with lust n is literally n hopelessly in love with his bikes. This type very easy to identify...
    Liverpool revival has started....

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by battle View Post
    Sharing my personal experience as a 1st timer 2B just passed rider hunting for bike.

    As usual, sourcing for a bike of my choice within my budget. Arrange to go viewing. At CP, test ride short distance (50m), have a bit of feel of the bike, look c look c......
    - Bike looks ok. just a bit of crack at the rear, looks ok to me.
    - Ride feel, a bit off balance, can't tell if it's the rider or the bike, also its on those tiled type carpark... so I blame on me (the rider)

    Then come my uncle, experienced biker, brought along a mechanics to help access the bike ..... OMG.....
    When I test ride, can't feel much (the only experience I have is Driving centre bike which is pretty crap, during expressway familiarisation ride at 80+ km/h the bike vibrate till like going to fall apart......
    Feedback.....
    - Fork not balanced (seems like the bike experience some frontal accident, but can be fix, not $XXX, commented hopefully the rider who goot the accident is ok.... !!! @_@)
    - Engine area (to me seems like simply dirty, but mech advice, engine gasket somewhere no good liao, got sign of slow leakage !!!)
    - sprocket ware off liao. time to replace
    - Chain might need replacement as well
    - tyre harden liao, better to replace for safety
    - brake working good... (heng)....

    OMG.... Bike over priced as well as advice by both Mech and my uncle.... okie.....

    End up I didn't buy the bike.


    Lesson... if you have uncle/auntie or relatives or friends have been riding for a long time, experienced, know people who can advice or help, seriously seek their help or advice in getting your first 2nd hand bike.
    Really more for safety and piece of mind riding.
    SG road already not safe for biker with tonnes of car simply change lane without signal, squeeze or push us bikers from behind staying so bloody close for comfort........

    So the last thing we want is a not reliable bike....

    Just sharing my personal experience... ; )
    Thanks for sharing

     

     
  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    Dear Readers

    There are many bikes on sales in this forum. Some are from direct owners and some are from bikeshops.
    Exactly, avoid bikeshops because they are profit driven and they would not know the definition of 'paiseh' and 'feeling of guilt' after working in one of the darkest industry in SG for so many years(according to CASE, motorcycle dealer industry receive one of the highest complaints, just below the likes of mobile phone industry and cars industry)
    I would like to caution about buying from direct owners. Some of the questions you should think about are

    1) Owner has changed a lot of parts on the bike, added accesssories etc. Some even overhauled the engine and claim that bike is in good condtion. Think about it! Why would anyone in the world spend money to repair the bike, then sell it off to you?
    Can be many reasons why they wanna sell, could be because they are sick of a persistence prob, but trust me, SG people are generally too thin skinned to do this unless they are profit driven to do something like bikeshop, direct owners may makes plenty of effort to hide the prob, or they would rather just reveal it to you in fear of being expose by you. Because it would be massively paiseh and I can vouch for you SGrean are extremely afraid of paiseh. In addition, because most SG non mechanic industry people are dumb nuts in manual labour, mechanics works, even qualified engineer knows nuts, as most of us dont even have a own garages to experiment even the most basic step of changing engine oil, so its near mission impossible if they want to DIY to hide a very complex problem. This is not the case for bikeshop. I can tell you the most common reason people like to use for performance bike, is that they want to tone down and downgrade as performance litre bikes are not feasible in SG. They wanna quit the games bike.

    2) All bikes have wear and tear items. The older the bike, the more problematic it is. Yet there are sellers claiming that the bike is in prefect condtion. How is that possible? Even new bikes are not prefect.
    Some owner claims that, but if I sell the bike I wont say that, i'd reveal my bike flaws on the spot to the best of my knowledge. Your quite stupid if u believe an old bike is perfect flawless conditions. Its still better some of my bikeshop experience, they dont even rode the bike, yet they just claim their 10 years old SP are in perfect condition because it is the standard procedure and part of the scripts to sell any bikes. They literally read a model script as they can't possibly think and write a new script for every bikes they sell, not trying to be offensive, but bikeshop dealers are usually managed by mechanics with low education. They cant prepare a detailed report of the current health status/history of the bike for hundreds of bikes they are selling, unlike individual direct owners who tends to have a better track of their bike history and some are even to write a full detailed report, more transparent than the government's financial statement.

    3) Assuming you find a really good offer. Seller dilligently maintain bike. Outlook is good. Wear and tear parts replaced and there are receipts to prove. You want to buy from him/her. Please think again. Outlook can be done nicely. Parts can be replaced by a good seller. One word of caution though....Internal leaks within the engine that cannot be seen by the naked eye.
    Bikeshop dont bother about this as well, saw a poor dude who just passed 2B bought a TZM150, bike comes with 1 week warranty. For the first 1 week, the bike was perfect, but exactly 7 days later, once the warranty ended, the whole clutch system broke down. He thought it was a nice deal until the 8th day. Amateur owners in SG usually donno how to do advanced work to hide your mentioned 'internal leaks within the engine that cannot be seen by the naked eye', while the risk of such incident is not 100% foolproof with direct owners purchase, the likelihood with shops is even higher because the shop dealers have mechanics to do the advanced/dark work to hide the prob. I have witnessed it, experienced it.

    For example, if the bike has excessive oil consumption problem, you will not know it till you have clocked up some mileage. By the time you know, it is too late. How about coolant seeping into the combustion chamber slowly? It will be months later before the bike will give out smoke. Do you have recourse? Anwer is NO.

    Therefore, please buy with care and ride safe.
    Know shop that did something worse to the above TZM dude. Poor dude.
    Coolant seeping into combustion chamber, u confirm cannot rev decently anymore. Remember to at least rev your bike.


    All in all, buying from direct owners can be dangerous and risky too depending on your human skills to judge the person.
    Buying from shop is even far far more dangerous as the dealer are much much more experience than you and if he ever decides to chop you, no matter how street smart of a person you are, you will be at the losing hand.
    Are you from a bikeshop yourself? lol
    Last edited by guangwei; 21-05-2015 at 07:09 PM.
    17 Nov 2011 - April 2013, NSR150 SP
    12 June 2013 - 23 Jan 2015, CBR400RRR
    23 February 2015 - 29 February 2016, YZF R6 2006
    12 March 2016 - 12 May 2017, CBR1000RR05
    July 2017 - Current, YZF R1 2008/CBF150

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by battle View Post
    Sharing my personal experience as a 1st timer 2B just passed rider hunting for bike.

    As usual, sourcing for a bike of my choice within my budget. Arrange to go viewing. At CP, test ride short distance (50m), have a bit of feel of the bike, look c look c......
    - Bike looks ok. just a bit of crack at the rear, looks ok to me.
    - Ride feel, a bit off balance, can't tell if it's the rider or the bike, also its on those tiled type carpark... so I blame on me (the rider)

    Then come my uncle, experienced biker, brought along a mechanics to help access the bike ..... OMG.....
    When I test ride, can't feel much (the only experience I have is Driving centre bike which is pretty crap, during expressway familiarisation ride at 80+ km/h the bike vibrate till like going to fall apart......
    Feedback.....
    - Fork not balanced (seems like the bike experience some frontal accident, but can be fix, not $XXX, commented hopefully the rider who goot the accident is ok.... !!! @_@)
    - Engine area (to me seems like simply dirty, but mech advice, engine gasket somewhere no good liao, got sign of slow leakage !!!)
    - sprocket ware off liao. time to replace
    - Chain might need replacement as well
    - tyre harden liao, better to replace for safety

    - brake working good... (heng)....

    OMG.... Bike over priced as well as advice by both Mech and my uncle.... okie.....

    End up I didn't buy the bike.


    Lesson... if you have uncle/auntie or relatives or friends have been riding for a long time, experienced, know people who can advice or help, seriously seek their help or advice in getting your first 2nd hand bike.
    Really more for safety and piece of mind riding.
    SG road already not safe for biker with tonnes of car simply change lane without signal, squeeze or push us bikers from behind staying so bloody close for comfort........

    So the last thing we want is a not reliable bike....

    Just sharing my personal experience... ; )
    The above 3 bolded quite easy to identify without testing. Fork not balance can be identified if u test ride. Engine area, did you whack? :/
    Go to http://bikez.com/ find the bike model, check the max power output at certain xxx rpm, note down the max power rpm and go view the bike, the bike need to be able to whack to the max power rpm easily at least smoothly to be identified apparent fine. You dont need to whack his bike to red line tho. Thats all I know.
    17 Nov 2011 - April 2013, NSR150 SP
    12 June 2013 - 23 Jan 2015, CBR400RRR
    23 February 2015 - 29 February 2016, YZF R6 2006
    12 March 2016 - 12 May 2017, CBR1000RR05
    July 2017 - Current, YZF R1 2008/CBF150

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by teambhp View Post
    There are weird people here who think that their bike has a lot of value even when coe left 1 to 2 yrs.by the way, there are also crook direct sellers asking shops to cheaply do n cover up the defects. Unsuspecting buyers will fall for it.

    One guy say that buyers are smart. Not really true.. If not, we will not reading be tales of woe here.
    Some bikes depreciate extremely slowly. RVF is 15 years old and its machince value is still 50% of what it was at retail 15 years ago.
    Some SP250 are going passed 10k and people buys it. Hell RVF was going 7k-9k back then when I just passed 2A in 2013, with 5 years COE and people buys it.
    Japanese bikes known to have longer lifespan than european bikes and popular model depreciate slower.
    The value of bike does not always depend on COE years. COE have its own value. Bike machine have its own value.

    Ducati depreciates faster from my quick observation. Maybe its becus its rare for european bikes to live past 2 COE cycles. Its very common for Honda bikes to go past 2 COE cycle. SP, CBR400RR, SP250. TZM, R6, R1.

    However IMHO, the % of depreciation does not have a modelled fixed percentage, but there is a common trend that I notice is that the % of depreciation are usually determined in an exponential to lower value every year. Something like, the older the bikes goes, the slower the depreciation rate. I'm 100% sure its not a simple fix % like depreciates 15% of its retail value every year. lol ;/

    Say a brand new bike to a 1 year bike, would depreciates by 25% of its value for the first year, but for the 1st year to the 2nd year of the bike lifespan, the depreciation would be at a lower depreciation rate at 20% of its value at 1 year old, then when you compare a 9 years old bike and a 10 years old bike, the depreciation would go slower and slower, say a 8 years old bike to 9 years old bike would by then properly depreciate by 10%, and a 9 years old bike would depreciate maybe just 8% of its value when it had transitted to 10 years old. However the unexpected sudden surge or fluctuation of COE bidding will affect how this theory works.
    All this assuming the bike is a similar particular example you are using.

    If you want a rough fomulae then its properly something something like % of depreciation = 25-1.5^n, (fomulae applies until % of depreciation drop to maybe 2% and the bike value is near 0)
    where n is the age of the bike. This fomulae does not works for every bike, every bikes depreciates at a different rate depending on its popularity and rarity. Again this does not take into consideration the variety of COE changes during the bike's lifespan.

    But but, from quick observation, europe bikes depreciates faster.
    if the below fomulae, % of depreciation = 25-1.5^n works for certain popular japanese bike, than the fomulae, % of depreciation = 25-1.45^n would works for a certain popular european bike
    (fomulae applies until % of depreciation drop to maybe 2% and the bike value is near 0)
    Last edited by guangwei; 21-05-2015 at 08:08 PM.
    17 Nov 2011 - April 2013, NSR150 SP
    12 June 2013 - 23 Jan 2015, CBR400RRR
    23 February 2015 - 29 February 2016, YZF R6 2006
    12 March 2016 - 12 May 2017, CBR1000RR05
    July 2017 - Current, YZF R1 2008/CBF150

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by guangwei View Post
    Some bikes depreciate extremely slowly. RVF is 15 years old and its machince value is still 50% of what it was at retail 15 years ago.
    Some SP250 are going passed 10k and people buys it. Hell RVF was going 7k-9k back then when I just passed 2A in 2013, with 5 years COE and people buys it.
    Japanese bikes known to have longer lifespan than european bikes and popular model depreciate slower.
    The value of bike does not always depend on COE years. COE have its own value. Bike machine have its own value.

    Ducati depreciates faster from my quick observation. Maybe its becus its rare for european bikes to live past 2 COE cycles. Its very common for Honda bikes to go past 2 COE cycle. SP, CBR400RR, SP250. TZM, R6, R1.

    However IMHO, the % of depreciation does not have a modelled fixed percentage, but there is a common trend that I notice is that the % of depreciation are usually determined in an exponential to lower value every year. Say a brand new bike to a 1 year bike, would depreciates by 25% of its value for the first year, but for the 1st year to the 2nd year of the bike lifespan, the depreciation would be at a lower depreciation rate at 15%, then when you compare a 9 years old bike and a 10 years old bike, the depreciation would be slower and slower, say a 8 years old bike to 9 years old bike would by then properly depreciate by 10%, and a 9 years old bike would depreciate maybe just 8% of its value.
    All this assuming the bike is a similar particular example you are using.

    But but, from quick observation, europe bikes depreciates faster.
    hi bro.

    interesting opinions. but we both agree depreciation is based on secondhand market value of the bike, which depends completely on market demand and definitely not zero upon ten years, yes? coz enuff explaining bike value not zero at ten years and depreciation not price divide by remaining coe. i also run out of words already...

    with regards your claim % depreciation does not have modelled fixed percentage, i agree. one can only approximate. my numbers are also generalizations like yours. especially in current climate where COE very suddenly climb, market demand has been thrown out of whack. thats why people are paying for 6 year old hyundais for the same price as when the car was brand new 6 years ago, resulting in zero depreciation. it is impossible for anyone to determine exact figures. only shops which regularly sell secondhand vehicles can give the closest approximation, as the trend of secondhand prices is at their fingertips.

    i oso agree that it is rarer to see conti bikes lasting beyond 2 COE cycles. but i'd like to suggest that this does not necessarily co-relate to its depreciation. as rare as these bikes are, so long as the much smaller numbers of enthusiasts pay a higher proportion of the original price of the conti compared to more common buyers buying japanese equivalents, then thats your indication of relative depreciation, not their rarity.

    maybe if we compare depreciation of conti vs jap at twenty years, perhaps we see the jap now having a lower depreciation, because no enthusiast wants the conti anymore, resulting in the value being zero or close to zero. whereas common buyers still buy the jap bike, so the jap bike still has value. but i would be very surprised if we compare secondhand price of successfully sold conti vs jap bikes less than ten years, and we find the jap bikes hold their percentage value better than the conti. i would be very interested if you have evidence of this. otherwise, i am still more inclined to believe the conti has lower depreciation.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by guangwei View Post
    The value of bike does not always depend on COE years. COE have its own value. Bike machine have its own value.
    ah-ha. yes.

    at ten years, if you choose to de-register bike and scrap, LTA pays you $0. its de-registration value is $0.

    but if you choose to sell the bike at ten years, and on average your ten your old model successfully sells for maybe $4k, then the secondhand value of your bike is $4k. not $0. but if nobody wants to buy that bike, like a ten year old bajaj pulsar, its secondhand value would indeed be $0.

    two different values, because two different options: de-register, or sell. and when we just say 'value', we always talk about its secondhand value. further, depreciation is based on secondhand value, not de-registration value.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    hi bro.

    interesting opinions. but we both agree depreciation is based on secondhand market value of the bike, which depends completely on market demand and definitely not zero upon ten years, yes? coz enuff explaining bike value not zero at ten years and depreciation not price divide by remaining coe. i also run out of words already...

    with regards your claim % depreciation does not have modelled fixed percentage, i agree. one can only approximate. my numbers are also generalizations like yours. especially in current climate where COE very suddenly climb, market demand has been thrown out of whack. thats why people are paying for 6 year old hyundais for the same price as when the car was brand new 6 years ago, resulting in zero depreciation. it is impossible for anyone to determine exact figures. only shops which regularly sell secondhand vehicles can give the closest approximation, as the trend of secondhand prices is at their fingertips.

    i oso agree that it is rarer to see conti bikes lasting beyond 2 COE cycles. but i'd like to suggest that this does not necessarily co-relate to its depreciation. as rare as these bikes are, so long as the much smaller numbers of enthusiasts pay a higher proportion of the original price of the conti compared to more common buyers buying japanese equivalents, then thats your indication of relative depreciation, not their rarity.

    maybe if we compare depreciation of conti vs jap at twenty years, perhaps we see the jap now having a lower depreciation, because no enthusiast wants the conti anymore, resulting in the value being zero or close to zero. whereas common buyers still buy the jap bike, so the jap bike still has value. but i would be very surprised if we compare secondhand price of successfully sold conti vs jap bikes less than ten years, and we find the jap bikes hold their percentage value better than the conti. i would be very interested if you have evidence of this. otherwise, i am still more inclined to believe the conti has lower depreciation.
    I see people selling their near 20 years old RVF at close to 10k and it works after some negiotating, but I never know or commonly see any europe bike still sellable at 20 years old. :/
    17 Nov 2011 - April 2013, NSR150 SP
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    23 February 2015 - 29 February 2016, YZF R6 2006
    12 March 2016 - 12 May 2017, CBR1000RR05
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  48. #148
    mechwira
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    Quote Originally Posted by guangwei View Post
    I see people selling their near 20 years old RVF at close to 10k and it works after some negiotating, but I never know or commonly see any europe bike still sellable at 20 years old. :/
    yeah bro. thats why i said perhaps at twenty years, maybe we see a reversal of the depreciation trend of conti vs jap. but i think comparing <10 yr bikes, i would be surprised if this also holds true. you have examples? i stand corrected (and very surprised) if you do.

    also, i'd like to suggest that maybe the RVF is now unique in that it has been considered a 'collectible' and is therefore a one-off among jap bikes of twenty years. some bikes because of their history and reputation (regardless of make) become like this. i'll bet a Ductai 916 also has such a trend. and RS250. all considered collectibles and hold their value. not so for a GSX-R400 right?


    i doubt we the same of most other twenty year old jap bikes.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    yeah bro. thats why i said perhaps at twenty years, maybe we see a reversal of the depreciation trend of conti vs jap. but i think comparing <10 yr bikes, i would be surprised if this also holds true. you have examples? i stand corrected (and very surprised) if you do.
    At below 10 years old bike, and applying to my above said formulae, the % of depreciation are closer when comparing european bikes and jap bikes. the difference widen with age.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechwira View Post
    yeah bro. thats why i said perhaps at twenty years, maybe we see a reversal of the depreciation trend of conti vs jap. but i think comparing <10 yr bikes, i would be surprised if this also holds true. you have examples? i stand corrected (and very surprised) if you do.

    also, i'd like to suggest that maybe the RVF is now unique in that it has been considered a 'collectible' and is therefore a one-off among jap bikes of twenty years. some bikes because of their history and reputation (regardless of make) become like this. i'll bet a Ductai 916 also has such a trend. and RS250. all considered collectibles and hold their value. not so for a GSX-R400 right?


    i doubt we the same of most other twenty year old jap bikes.
    Some jap bikes do depreciate crazily fast too, like GSXR because suzuki completely abandons it, so I guess its hard to generalise which origin bikes depreciates faster. But a ducati 916 and RS250 is definitely noway as common as a CBR400RRR, RVF, and old spec1/2. You see there are more japanese bike that depreciates slow than europe bikes that depreciates slow.
    17 Nov 2011 - April 2013, NSR150 SP
    12 June 2013 - 23 Jan 2015, CBR400RRR
    23 February 2015 - 29 February 2016, YZF R6 2006
    12 March 2016 - 12 May 2017, CBR1000RR05
    July 2017 - Current, YZF R1 2008/CBF150

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