Caution buying used bikes

[teambhp]

Dear Readers

There are many bikes on sales in this forum. Some are from direct owners and some are from bikeshops.

I would like to caution about buying from direct owners. Some of the questions you should think about are

1) Owner has changed a lot of parts on the bike, added accesssories etc. Some even overhauled the engine and claim that bike is in good condtion. Think about it! Why would anyone in the world spend money to repair the bike, then sell it off to you?

2) All bikes have wear and tear items. The older the bike, the more problematic it is. Yet there are sellers claiming that the bike is in prefect condtion. How is that possible? Even new bikes are not prefect.

3) Assuming you find a really good offer. Seller dilligently maintain bike. Outlook is good. Wear and tear parts replaced and there are receipts to prove. You want to buy from him/her. Please think again. Outlook can be done nicely. Parts can be replaced by a good seller. One word of caution though....Internal leaks within the engine that cannot be seen by the naked eye.

For example, if the bike has excessive oil consumption problem, you will not know it till you have clocked up some mileage. By the time you know, it is too late. How about coolant seeping into the combustion chamber slowly? It will be months later before the bike will give out smoke. Do you have recourse? Anwer is NO.

Therefore, please buy with care and ride safe.

[matthias76]

Your vested interest might invite flamers. But I can attest to your claims having bought both from direct owners and bikeshops myself.

I have said before in other posts, it doesn't really matter if you do not research well into the bike that you are buying. Most bikeshops offer a 1 to 3 months guarantee on the purchase while Direct Sellers don't. Some may think a 1 to 3 months is worth crap, but I would say its valuable time for a person to see whether the bike needs significant repair.

However, if the bikeshop is a black shop, there isn't any difference. They will have the tricks of the trade to repair cheap and put a problematic bike out for sale also.

Good shop value their reputation. So does good people. The difficulty is finding one.

[teambhp]

Let the flamers come. I am just cautioning all bikers here. From I read in the sales section, a lot of direct owners are claiming that their bike is in good condition. Really? Think again

[matthias76]

Let the flamers come. I am just cautioning all bikers here. From I read in the sales section, a lot of direct owners are claiming that their bike is in good condition. Really? Think again

I applaud your effort and have no intention of flaming you at all. Hope you dun misunderstand.

Perhaps there is a greater problem of the newer type of sellers as mentioned - people who flip bikes with direct sellers for a higher price.

The benefits of buying from a shop currently may be slightly better than getting it off a direct seller. Given that most direct seller nowadays mark up their prices due to COE. In such cases, I would rather buy from a shop I trust instead.

[teambhp]

I applaud your effort and have no intention of flaming you at all. Hope you dun misunderstand.

Perhaps there is a greater problem of the newer type of sellers as mentioned - people who flip bikes with direct sellers for a higher price.

The benefits of buying from a shop currently may be slightly better than getting it off a direct seller. Given that most direct seller nowadays mark up their prices due to COE. In such cases, I would rather buy from a shop I trust instead.

So far,no flamers yet. I am providing a free service by highlighting those sellers asking for crazy prices.

[kzone]

if u're really serious about buying, request for the bike to be inspected at the workshop of ur choice then make an offer after the assesment.

[teambhp]

if u're really serious about buying, request for the bike to be inspected at the workshop of ur choice then make an offer after the assesment.

That would be a good idea. If the owner reject, then you know something is wrong

[beginner444]

if u're really serious about buying, request for the bike to be inspected at the workshop of ur choice then make an offer after the assesment.

I second that, and they are becoming more and more greedy, suka suka jack up the price, sshit lah.

[Siphon]

Buy from shop, you are covered by lemon law. Buy from "owner" you are not covered.

Sometimes buyer/seller will also give sob stories to make you lower price and such... end of the day you are the one deciding. Whether you want to sell or not to sell. Its always a hard choice because it deals with the heart. But recently i'm feeling there are more and more "heartless" people just out to make a profit... sad.

[teambhp]

Buy from shop, you are covered by lemon law. Buy from "owner" you are not covered.

Sometimes buyer/seller will also give sob stories to make you lower price and such... end of the day you are the one deciding. Whether you want to sell or not to sell. Its always a hard choice because it deals with the heart. But recently i'm feeling there are more and more "heartless" people just out to make a profit... sad.

Here are some of the bikes that i will highlight. I will keep this list updated and leave it to the buyers to make their conclusion.

1)TDM 900
COE expire 2 Oct 2017 (Left around 1.5 yr or so)
Selling price $8500
Depreication per year= $5666

2)Super 4 Spec 3
COE expire July 2017 (Left around 2 yr)
Selling price $8500
Depreication per year= $4250

3)Super 4 Spec 3 Bol'dor
COE expire 19 Jan 2017 (Left around 1.5yr)
Selling price $8000
Depreication per year= $5333

[kzone]

Here are some of the bikes that i will highlight. I will keep this list updated and leave it to the buyers to make their conclusion.

1)TDM 900
COE expire 2 Oct 2017 (Left around 1.5 yr or so)
Selling price $8500
Depreication per year= $5666

2)Super 4 Spec 3
COE expire July 2017 (Left around 2 yr)
Selling price $8500
Depreication per year= $4250

3)Super 4 Spec 3 Bol'dor
COE expire 19 Jan 2017 (Left around 1.5yr)
Selling price $8000
Depreication per year= $5333

haha! more expensive then my 1.6L car I just sold recently.. depreciation $4k a year only

good list bro! appreciate the efforts!

[teambhp]

Here are some of the bikes that i will highlight. I will keep this list updated and leave it to the buyers to make their conclusion.

1)TDM 900
COE expire 2 Oct 2017 (Left around 1.5 yr or so)
Selling price $8500
Depreication per year= $5666

2)Super 4 Spec 3
COE expire July 2017 (Left around 2 yr)
Selling price $8500
Depreication per year= $4250

3)Super 4 Spec 3 Bol'dor
COE expire 19 Jan 2017 (Left around 1.5yr)
Selling price $8000
Depreication per year= $5333

4)HD Sportster 883R
COE expire Oct 2017 (Left around 2.5 year)
Selling price $14000
Depreciation per yr = $5600

[teambhp]

4)HD Sportster 883R
COE expire Oct 2017 (Left around 2.5 year)
Selling price $14000
Depreciation per yr = $5600

http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums...Honda-CB1000-S
This one depreciation super high. COE less than 1 yr

[teambhp]

4)HD Sportster 883R
COE expire Oct 2017 (Left around 2.5 year)
Selling price $14000
Depreciation per yr = $5600

http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums...883-R-For-Sale

[kzone]

I was camping at the sales thread in this forum to look out for cheap buys for bikes nearing COE expiring.... but dont have. I thought with high COEs now, many wud find it not worthilw to renew COE so wud let go their 9ish old bikes cheap.. but instead, the prices of such bikes balooned!

wonder what will happen to these bikes since unlikely to find buyers

[teambhp]

I was camping at the sales thread in this forum to look out for cheap buys for bikes nearing COE expiring.... but dont have. I thought with high COEs now, many wud find it not worthilw to renew COE so wud let go their 9ish old bikes cheap.. but instead, the prices of such bikes balooned!

wonder what will happen to these bikes since unlikely to find buyers

As long as you not desperate, take your time to chose, there will be no profits for these sellers. What for let these people get your hard earn money? A yamaha diversion 900 asking for close to 15k.would you buy?

[kzone]

As long as you not desperate, take your time to chose, there will be no profits for these sellers. What for let these people get your hard earn money? A yamaha diversion 900 asking for close to 15k.would you buy?

yes agree... I'm just wondering what will happen to these bikes... I respect the time u take to go thru the sales posts to identify these bikes... would it be too much trouble if u can also update when is sold and if there are any indication on the final selling price.

for some bikes, I wud say that the bike value is not zero after coe expiry. That's why I'm curious to know the final selling point to gauge the value of a bike upon its COE expiry cos unlike cars where u can use the parf as a guide

[200sx]

teambhp, you reinforced my concept on buy and selling in Singapore. the price is crazy and I wouldn't pay more then 800$ per year for a bread and butter transport.

[teambhp]

teambhp, you reinforced my concept on buy and selling in Singapore. the price is crazy and I wouldn't pay more then 800$ per year for a bread and butter transport.

800 per year depreciation is it? Nowadays hard to find.even a r6 that left one year coe still asking for 6k.

[hachi]

Well, I can shared my experiences on purchasing over 19 bikes in my 17 years of riding. Out of my 19 bikes, 2 were lemons and almost cost half as much to repair. As all of them are paid in cold hard cash, profit can be made even you have rode for 10-20 months.
But I do have a habits of maintaining my rides, outlook plays an important part in the sale.
You need a certain experiences in identify problem bikes, check for leaks, outlook, if the bike is in good condition, most likely it should be clean and shiny as the owner takes good care of it. Listen to the sound and request for a test ride if possible, have the owner pillion you due to insurance issue.
Look for the confidence that the owner has in his bike. Usually class 2 bikes are better cared by its owners than smaller bikes. Check for wrapped rotors, sneaky suspension and unusual sound during the journey. After the ride, chat with the owner and park the bike on a clean parking lot to check for unsuspected leak which may suggest a repair as some seals or crack in the engine will only be shown when the bike is heated up.
If in doubt just walk away. And I dont knwo how to check for good condition scooter till now. LOL

[teambhp]

Well, I can shared my experiences on purchasing over 19 bikes in my 17 years of riding. Out of my 19 bikes, 2 were lemons and almost cost half as much to repair. As all of them are paid in cold hard cash, profit can be made even you have rode for 10-20 months.
But I do have a habits of maintaining my rides, outlook plays an important part in the sale.
You need a certain experiences in identify problem bikes, check for leaks, outlook, if the bike is in good condition, most likely it should be clean and shiny as the owner takes good care of it. Listen to the sound and request for a test ride if possible, have the owner pillion you due to insurance issue.
Look for the confidence that the owner has in his bike. Usually class 2 bikes are better cared by its owners than smaller bikes. Check for wrapped rotors, sneaky suspension and unusual sound during the journey. After the ride, chat with the owner and park the bike on a clean parking lot to check for unsuspected leak which may suggest a repair as some seals or crack in the engine will only be shown when the bike is heated up.
If in doubt just walk away. And I dont knwo how to check for good condition scooter till now. LOL

When it comes to sports bikes, hard to detect problems as engine n gearbox is covered by fairings. Someone suggest bring to workshop for inspection n it's a good idea. Do not be taken by beautiful words from sellers. Am I too hard on sellers? Yes. and why so? Because they are asking high prices. You,as the buyer, should demand the best since you are paying for it

[200sx]

5) Diversion 900
COE expire 2023
Selling 16k
Depreciation per yr = $2k

Problem is the bike only have the COE value of 2k. the appropriate depreciation of a COE bike should be around 1k. You pay 16k, straight you lost 14k if you want to sell to shop unless you found a super enthusiast of Diversion which I doubt so.

[teambhp]

5) Diversion 900
COE expire 2023
Selling 16k
Depreciation per yr = $2k

Problem is the bike only have the COE value of 2k. the appropriate depreciation of a COE bike should be around 1k. You pay 16k, straight you lost 14k if you want to sell to shop unless you found a super enthusiast of Diversion which I doubt so.

You know what? Some shops also do not want to take in this model

[wat3v3r]

I totally agree.

If owner wishes to mask the problems, not matter what, the naked eye will not be able to see.

I had recently bought a used bike to realise that the owner had glued the oil seal back to prevent an overhaul of the engine. Which will not last for a few months due to the heat involved.

I beacon to all out there to do your inspections carefully and to make sure that the seller's character could be trusted.

[filtered]

How abt bikes which can be considered 'classics' or 'collectors item', since no longer in production?

For example bikes below? How would you value them?

http://www.singaporebikes.com/used_b...ic_sport_1000/

http://www.singaporebikes.com/used_b...lassic_gt1000/

[teambhp]

How abt bikes which can be considered 'classics' or 'collectors item', since no longer in production?

For example bikes below? How would you value them?

http://www.singaporebikes.com/used_b...ic_sport_1000/

http://www.singaporebikes.com/used_b...lassic_gt1000/

I am not expert in this area. Therefore I will leave it to someone more knowledgeable to comment

[kzone]

btw, I have a FW plate phantom TA200. COE expiring June 2018 (non renewable). original egistration date June 2003. What's a fair price to let go now?

[teambhp]

btw, I have a FW plate phantom TA200. COE expiring June 2018 (non renewable). original egistration date June 2003. What's a fair price to let go now?

Bro..u set the price. Buyers then decide whether to buy your bike. It's not right for anyone to dictate a price for you

[kzone]

Bro..u set the price. Buyers then decide whether to buy your bike. It's not right for anyone to dictate a price for you

actually I already plan to ask 10k for my bike so wanna check wats the sentiment out there... but first need to find a bike to buy before I sell mine..

[200sx]

Hi Kzone bro, if ppl are nice enough since COE increased, I think its fair to say we use the current COE price multiply by the left over years plus about 200$ for your TA200 body. $2100 is a fair price. if not since its not renewable, ppl use the paper value of your COE which will be about 1000+200 body? 1.2k will be the price shop is going to take it in.

[di_andrei]

I'm confused, why do you assume the value of the bike is zero upon COE expiry? Are all the listed bikes renewed with 5 year COE only? Even with no COE left, some bikes are still quite valuable. Yes, there are good and bad deals out there, but generally speaking people buy used because it's cheaper. 9 times out of 10 buying used will result in lower depreciation per year compared to buying new. Should I make a new thread cautioning people against wasting money to buy new, and listing all the good deals?

[rogngts]

Cos bike will need to be scrapped.. No COE no bike or you buy new from shop and do not register it.. keep at home and polish.

I'm confused, why do you assume the value of the bike is zero upon COE expiry? Are all the listed bikes renewed with 5 year COE only? Even with no COE left, some bikes are still quite valuable. Yes, there are good and bad deals out there, but generally speaking people buy used because it's cheaper. 9 times out of 10 buying used will result in lower depreciation per year compared to buying new. Should I make a new thread cautioning people against wasting money to buy new, and listing all the good deals?

[di_andrei]

Cos bike will need to be scrapped.. No COE no bike or you buy new from shop and do not register it.. keep at home and polish.

Or you can renew COE? As long as COE can be renewed and the bike runs, the value is not zero, and could in fact be quite a lot depending on the bike of course.

[teambhp]

Or you can renew COE? As long as COE can be renewed and the bike runs, the value is not zero, and could in fact be quite a lot depending on the bike of course.

Yes, if one renew the coe, then the bike will have paper value. Anything above that depends on how much the seller n buyer wanna deal

[teambhp]

I'm confused, why do you assume the value of the bike is zero upon COE expiry? Are all the listed bikes renewed with 5 year COE only? Even with no COE left, some bikes are still quite valuable. Yes, there are good and bad deals out there, but generally speaking people buy used because it's cheaper. 9 times out of 10 buying used will result in lower depreciation per year compared to buying new. Should I make a new thread cautioning people against wasting money to buy new, and listing all the good deals?

Of course it's zero value upon coe expiry. Unlike cars,bikes have no part value

[mechwira]

Of course it's zero value upon coe expiry. Unlike cars,bikes have no part value

this can't be right.

how can ten year old bike with COE about to expire, but with buyer having option of renewing COE, be worthless in the secondhand market?

granted the seller has to be realistic with his pricing, but zero value? nobody willing to buy?

show me a 2005 R1 for sale where i can just take and pay COE to LTA. i may be interested.

[teambhp]

this can't be right.

how can ten year old bike with COE about to expire, but with buyer having option of renewing COE, be worthless in the secondhand market?

granted the seller has to be realistic with his pricing, but zero value? nobody willing to buy?

show me a 2005 R1 for sale where i can just take and pay COE to LTA. i may be interested.

You should not be surprised that bikes with coe to expire are useless in the markets.why? Reason is because coe is at 6.5k now n the possibility of it going even higher is there. Is it worth to renew coe for an old bike? Of course not. Please dun get started saying previous owners has maintained it well etc.old bikes are old bikes n wear n tear area can never escape one.

However if coe is about 2k plus, these useless bikes suddenly become valuable n buyers dun mind buying to renew. The savings they get from renewing coe at a low price can be used to repair the bikes.

Bike shops also hesitate to take in such useless bikes.what if coe hits 9k? It makes no business sense to renew n sell cos the number of buyers will be limited.

[mechwira]

You should not be surprised that bikes with coe to expire are useless in the markets.why? Reason is because coe is at 6.5k now n the possibility of it going even higher is there. Is it worth to renew coe for an old bike? Of course not. Please dun get started saying previous owners has maintained it well etc.old bikes are old bikes n wear n tear area can never escape one.

However if coe is about 2k plus, these useless bikes suddenly become valuable n buyers dun mind buying to renew. The savings they get from renewing coe at a low price can be used to repair the bikes.

Bike shops also hesitate to take in such useless bikes.what if coe hits 9k? It makes no business sense to renew n sell cos the number of buyers will be limited.

i agree.

but thats because in this post you finally pointed out that a bike's resale value is tied to demand. there is currently low demand for ten year old renewable bike because current coe is high. if coe drops significantly as you say, then demand does go up and the bike does have value even though coe is expiring.

you have previously only used the bike's parf value to determine its price, saying that an expiring coe bike has no value because it has no parf.

and my point is the bike's secondhand price is parf + demand. not just parf. and demand you cannot easily calculate by some formula.

[calebike]

You should not be surprised that bikes with coe to expire are useless in the markets.why? Reason is because coe is at 6.5k now n the possibility of it going even higher is there. Is it worth to renew coe for an old bike? Of course not. Please dun get started saying previous owners has maintained it well etc.old bikes are old bikes n wear n tear area can never escape one.

However if coe is about 2k plus, these useless bikes suddenly become valuable n buyers dun mind buying to renew. The savings they get from renewing coe at a low price can be used to repair the bikes.

Bike shops also hesitate to take in such useless bikes.what if coe hits 9k? It makes no business sense to renew n sell cos the number of buyers will be limited.

your argument holds true for the cheaper bikes. because it is no longer worth to renew the COE. can the same be said for the majority of your class 2 bikes? lets not get carried away and apply this to the 20yo bikes (incoming 3rd COE). Worth is a relative, is it worth to pay 6.5k to renew a 5k wave? is it worth to pay 6.5k to renew 30k beemer?

your point about old bikes being old bikes. and wear and tear being unavoidable. so regardless of the condition of the old bike, you advocate non-renewal of COE as it is a waste of money? when COE hits 9k, it makes no business sense to renew and sell certain makes and models. the bike market will closely emulate the car market. continentals everywhere. german automakers taking the top sales spots.

[di_andrei]

this can't be right.

how can ten year old bike with COE about to expire, but with buyer having option of renewing COE, be worthless in the secondhand market?

granted the seller has to be realistic with his pricing, but zero value? nobody willing to buy?

show me a 2005 R1 for sale where i can just take and pay COE to LTA. i may be interested.

Exactly. Do you see many free bikes around? If the value of all bikes with expiring COE was zero then there should be many free bikes. I would also like to add my name to the interest list when tembhp starts giving away free bikes with expiring COE.

[kzone]

Exactly. Do you see many free bikes around? If the value of all bikes with expiring COE was zero then there should be many free bikes. I would also like to add my name to the interest list when tembhp starts giving away free bikes with expiring COE.

Q behind me! k, seriously, not free bikes lar... But I am expecting lesser demand for 9+ year old bikes as COE rises cos its now more ex to renew COE and lesser people willing to pay to 6+K in cash to renew COE. So this in theory should reduce demand. On the flip side, because COE is so high, current owners will try to ride their bikes till the last day before moving on to new bikes... but I'm still curious what will happen to these mid range bikes when the 10yrs is up. Are ppl renewing or simply scrap the bikes?

[di_andrei]

Of course it's zero value upon coe expiry. Unlike cars,bikes have no part value

Absolute nonsense, please **** off.

[teambhp]

Bike has little PARF value. I merely take the selling price divide by the number of years left to give you guys the depreciation figure per year. Worth to buy? It's your money, so you guys decide.

[calebike]

Of course it's zero value upon coe expiry. Unlike cars,bikes have no part value

Bike has little PARF value. I merely take the selling price divide by the number of years left to give you guys the depreciation figure per year. Worth to buy? It's your money, so you guys decide.

so does a bike have little or no parf value?

[teambhp]

The new bike market will mostly be from Bmw, ducati,Harley riders

[matthias76]

Teambhp is providing a simple evaluation of bike values in this thread. And some of his views are harsh but pragmatic. It doesn't matter how much you (seller) think your bike is worth, cos as long as you do not renew your COE at the 10 year mark, your bike is as good as scrap metal. The best you can recover cost is to dismantle and sell off your parts (if they are as what you claimed, well maintained yadah yadah...)

There are exceptions to this rule of course. Classics and Class 2 bikes which have otherwise intrinsic value tied to the bike itself instead of the COE. There could be a reason as to why the seller is not renewing the COE (when its about 2- 3 months left) for myriad of reasons. But given the intrinsic value of such bikes, I doubt the seller would allow it to be scrapped when the COE time is up.

As for those 10/20 years bike with renewed COE asking for sky-high prices on the machine, this is definitely human nature and a cost-replacement model. I doubt that there are many kind-hearted souls around to float other people boats by selling their 2nd-hand bike at a cheap price without factoring their own cost for getting a new bike. Even if there are such kind souls around, there are plenty of "prata-flippers" who will suck these deals up and screw up the 2nd-hand market in a flash.

Lastly, please keep the civility in this thread. We can agree to disagree. No one is perfect here, and collective wisdom (acquired in civil discussion) beats self-assumed omniscience EVERY TIME.

[di_andrei]

Teambhp is providing a simple evaluation of bike values in this thread. And some of his views are harsh but pragmatic.

Teambhp is providing a biased view based on vested interest. Yes, of course there are many bad deals available second hand. There are also many many good deals. The view that a new bike is always a better "deal" is complete nonsense.

[kzone]

Teambhp is providing a biased view based on vested interest. Yes, of course there are many bad deals available second hand. There are also many many good deals. The view that a new bike is always a better "deal" is complete nonsense.

not always but its starting to be like that, which is the trend for cars now where the depreciateion for new cars can be lower than used cars. In the recent past, used bikes has always been the more economical choice both in absolute amount as well as average depreciation costs... now its changing.

Teambhp may have vested interest and quite closed up mindset... and its good that he shares his thoughts rather than just accept the "norm" and his highlighting of bikes with ridiculous asking price will actually help both potential buyers as well as the seller himself.

Can you likewise give current examples of the "many many good deals". I'm trying to look out for one myself.. but dont seem to notice these good deals

[teambhp]

not always but its starting to be like that, which is the trend for cars now where the depreciateion for new cars can be lower than used cars. In the recent past, used bikes has always been the more economical choice both in absolute amount as well as average depreciation costs... now its changing.

Teambhp may have vested interest and quite closed up mindset... and its good that he shares his thoughts rather than just accept the "norm" and his highlighting of bikes with ridiculous asking price will actually help both potential buyers as well as the seller himself.

Can you likewise give current examples of the "many many good deals". I'm trying to look out for one myself.. but dont seem to notice these good deals

Haha.. I agree with you that good deals are rare.

[teambhp]

Teambhp is providing a biased view based on vested interest. Yes, of course there are many bad deals available second hand. There are also many many good deals. The view that a new bike is always a better "deal" is complete nonsense.

A new bike has less depreciation than an old bike. A new r6 is selling for around 25k at Hong leong. Its depreciation is 2.5k per year.why not you find a second hand r6 that depreciation less than that?