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Thread: COE Analysis

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    victorp
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    Default COE Analysis



    This is my first post on this forum so pardon me if I break any rules.

    I had been following the COE (cat D) for the recent 1 year and after following multiple emails with LTA, I believe the cause for the high COE is due to the dealer being able to bid the COE.

    I enquired with LTA and received an email from them on 9th June 2015 with the following statement:

    Bidding for these COE categories must be made in the name of the buyer. Once the COE is obtained, the vehicle has to be registered in the name of the bidder. Therefore, there must be a genuine buyer behind each bid, and the dealers cannot bid for a COE without a buyer and hope to subsequently re-sell the COE to profit from it.
    I thus replied with information of my bike. I was issued a COE that the dealer bid 3 month before I purchased my bike. Given their statement, I could only think that the dealer is able to foresee that I will walk into their shop and buy from them, thus they bid a COE on my behalf 3 month before. But they replied on 14th September 2015, after multiple chaser, with the following statement:

    With regards to your COE query, a COE can only be bidded in the name of the buyer. LTA does not however restrict the subsequent transfer of ownership. For motorcycles, it is a common practice that dealers register the ownership under their name and then transfer the ownership to the new buyer.
    We all know that to own a vehicle, we need the COE. What is stopping the dealer to bid high for the COE when they bear no cost as that will be paid by us, the rider.

    I understand that some rider here will be asking why do I think that the dealer will bid such a high price for COE? So let me explain why I thought so.

    - Firstly, every dealer/bike shop can have the physical bike, but only the shop that has the COE can sell those bike. COE for bike can be used for all cc, from your scooter to your harley so this COE (cat D) is very versatile. This encourage the dealer to bid for a lot of COE so that they can proceed with the sales.

    - Secondly, if you look at the information LTA provided (transparent system), the bid amount distribution varies with huge differences. Search for the information here, Distribution of Successful Bids, and you will be surprised. People are actually bidding >40% of the QP. Do let me know with your replies here that you will bid with an amount of $10k and more for the COE as I don't know of any rider who would does that. BUT!!! The dealer will, as there will always be riders needing a ride and do they have a choice when LTA release the COE bidding result and the dealer just tell you "bo bian".

    I know that it is easy for the dealer to do everything for us. And also the joy of getting a new bike within a few days after signing the paper. But we need to wake up as this is really bad for people who need the bike in their course of work. The solution is simple, only allow the dealer to bid with a actual buyer or disallow transfer of the COE for the first 3 month.

    Although I can profit from selling my bike, amazing that I can sell my bike now for the same price I paid for it 4 years back, I would rather everyone who wish to ride be able to do so.

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    simeone82
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    Hi, I was also following the COE trend this few months. Always last 1 or 2 mins, suddenly got as much as 50 bidders get in and causes the COE to shoot up..Yesterday as much as 70 bidders at last min get in and COE becomes $6300...If only COE is not transferrable, then I believe it will goes down. When I went to mah motor to view RS4 125 they had so many COEs on hand to offer me that I can get my bike by 2 to 3 working days....So I am not surprised that everyone, dealer etc with the kiasu mentality chiong in to bid the COEs..Well market trend so just have follow.. good for those that sold their bike for profit but then if buy another bike also it wont be cheap...

     

     
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    victorp
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    Bro simeone82, you are right about the last min surge in the COE price. I personally saw that almost every time and across all COE Category. I believe this is a tactics to stop normal people from coming into the bid and push them off. They are mostly cash rich and COE is also as good as cash, always got people needing it.

    I will bid for my own COE from now on, do not get from the shop no matter how they persuade you (unless they give you a huge discount). Lets all do our part in making the riding community alive again.

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    Orleng
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    http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums...=1#post8358015

    low opportunity cost for dealers. They stand to lose $200. One sales, the interest they stand to earn on the current COE alone *let's assume the rest of the bike is paid for in cash, and that the COE is $6k, with interest at 4%, that's already $240. Even with 50% COE utilisation, under such unlikely scenarios, the dealer is not going to lose any money by bidding for more than he can use. So why not bid?

    Like everyone has said, only way to remove the last min sky-high rush would be to take dealers out of the equation, but that will not happen.
    Last edited by Orleng; 23-06-2016 at 06:41 PM.
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    Looks like a template answer given by LTA. But then again whats new? You can try bidding for your own COE. However unless you have a gigantic stack of cash then I highly doubt you will get any. What you are persuading others to do is to bid for themselves. Good idea but then again the bikeshop can just not sell you the bike. So back to square one.
    Last edited by duo; 24-06-2016 at 10:12 AM.
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    I think it good to try to bid for own COE especially when is like $1 dollars then try $100 or something. Yes even if for example you successful bidded for a $1 dollar COE, the dealer can say oh own COE have to top up how much etc.. No loan need top up how much etc..Bike shop wins in the end.

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    Orleng
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    Y'know. Since it costs only $200 to bid for a coe, as a group, we can mess with the shops. Since they're usually the ones with large volumes of coe.


    Whole load of riders bid 10k, raise the coe, then no one uses it. We each lose $200, but can leave the shops holding expensive coe for 6mths.

    If they don't utilise, it will be recycled back into the next quarter's coe allocation, potentially dropping prices for that 1 bidding cycle.

    Just a theory.

    Of course if the shops know when the large bunch of unused coe will be recycled, they could make more bids and keep the prices inflated.
    Smile! Tomorrow will be worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orleng View Post
    Y'know. Since it costs only $200 to bid for a coe, as a group, we can mess with the shops. Since they're usually the ones with large volumes of coe.


    Whole load of riders bid 10k, raise the coe, then no one uses it. We each lose $200, but can leave the shops holding expensive coe for 6mths.

    If they don't utilise, it will be recycled back into the next quarter's coe allocation, potentially dropping prices for that 1 bidding cycle.

    Just a theory.

    Of course if the shops know when the large bunch of unused coe will be recycled, they could make more bids and keep the prices inflated.
    Might work but then again shops can just offer longer instalment plans and people will still buy no matter what the price is. They simply drag the instalment longer and make it 'affordable'.
    Last edited by duo; 24-06-2016 at 02:39 PM.
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    hachi
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    I advocate the self bidding COE, in fact it only takes 5 mins or less to do it via the ATM.
    Using dealer's account, you can throw 50-100 bids at a time unlike individual self bid.
    In this case, the system is skew towards dealers not individual buyer like myself.
    It is always the last 1-20 mins where all bids come in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hachi View Post
    .......
    It is always the last 1-20 mins where all bids come in.
    as u say, the coe system have been rigged, set to skew high, its no longer a fair system.
    did all forgot tat once the cat A or B coe hit S$5k? when it was >S$70k.
    for tat month, garmen lost of 1 billion income, guess whom(mbt) was replaced.
    it the same thing in ebay bids, at the end, bid price will sudden shot up.....

    ps;
    look at bike population in sillypore, b4 2010 if coe for bikes r consumed (tat means new bikes) it will increase bike population by 2% annually but not growth, strange?
    after 2010, growth suppose to be 1%. no growth but further shrinkage, many scrapped their bikes due to high coe.

    compare to coe cat A/B, growth of 5% steadily, have triple car population since 2000.
    Last edited by stsoh; 24-06-2016 at 08:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stsoh View Post
    as u say, the coe system have been rigged, set to skew high, its no longer a fair system.
    did all forgot tat once the cat A or B coe hit S$5k? when it was >S$70k.
    for tat month, garmen lost of 1 billion income, guess whom(mbt) was replaced.
    it the same thing in ebay bids, at the end, bid price will sudden shot up.....

    ps;
    look at bike population in sillypore, b4 2010 if coe for bikes r consumed (tat means new bikes) it will increase bike population by 2% annually but not growth, strange?
    after 2010, growth suppose to be 1%. no growth but further shrinkage, many scrapped their bikes due to high coe.

    compare to coe cat A/B, growth of 5% steadily, have triple car population since 2000.
    Not strange. It's the system and simple math.

    http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums...=1#post8358082

    Quote Originally Posted by Orleng View Post
    The biggest problem with the motorcycle COE supply chain is simply this.

    Factored growth is set at 0.25%.

    10% (as of now) of deregistered motorcycle (and all other categories) is transferred to Cat E (Open Cat)


    http://www.lta.gov.sg/content/dam/lt...locationRV.pdf

    looking at the latest VQS. 90 "Growth COE" for Cat D.

    2258 Motorcycles scrapped from Apr - June

    225 Of those COEs go to Cat E

    2033 Replacement Cat D COE available.

    6 Expired Unusued COEs Apr-Jun (those unused COEs forfeited)

    2258 (deregistered in apr-jun) - 225 + 90 + 6 = 2129 available COE available from Jul-Oct.

    2258 - 2129 = 129 less motorcycles. And this is for the 3mth period.


    There were 144,467 motorcycles on the road last year. at 0.25% growth. that's 361 "New COE" in total for this year. Whilst we lost 10% of our deregistered to Cat E.

    It's not due to traffic congestion. It's basically, the 10% of Cat D deregistered COEs going to Cat E. It is going to be perpetual negative growth. Will never increase ever again. The replacement rate is lower than the % rate going to Cat E.

    Why motorcycle COE going to Cat E? It just creates more congestion. At the same time, it generates more money. And rids Singapore of motorcycles.

    I am a rider, I don't like it either, but, Ownself Check Ownself.
    Last edited by Orleng; 25-06-2016 at 10:54 AM.
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    Let's just do some more simple sums.

    For example, the 225 COEs that went to CAT E, let's take the current Cat E COE pricing of $57,390 minus current Cat D COE $6,303.

    ($57 390 - $6 303) * 225 = $11 494 575. Per quarter. Let's take a conservative estimate of $10mil per quarter. Under the current system, using this simplified example, the govt is making $40M a year. As compared to if they returned all COE back to Cat

    This is not factoring in the Cat D "Annual Growth".
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    victorp
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    When the shop indicate the machine price, that is the price they are selling and they should not inflat the price if we are not getting COE from them. If they do so, that will be against the law where they proved that they are profiting from bidding the COE and this gives me a very good proposition to bring this up to whoever will listen. My email to LTA can't prove that the shop is jacking up the COE price, thus if I can get a quotation from the shop that there are dual pricing for those buying with COE and for those without, we will be able to stop these "bidding under dealers" rules.

    But I don't think they will be selling with dual price as that will fall under price discrimination which is against the law. So all I'm asking is for all those who wants to buy a bike to bid their own COE. Let the shop lock their cash on those COE they bid. We should be paying the same price as what the shop offers as we are all paying for the same COE, and this is a small move from us to stop this ridiculous COE pricing.

    Deposit is only $200 and from what I read, this $200 goes to paying the COE as well. Bid a price you are comfortable with as I can't fix an amt for everyone to bid, that will be market manipulation. What I'm suggesting here is a change in our way of buying. Yes, we will have to wait longer before we get to ride the bike, but I personally feel that it's worth it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorp View Post
    When the shop indicate the machine price, that is the price they are selling and they should not inflat the price if we are not getting COE from them. If they do so, that will be against the law where they proved that they are profiting from bidding the COE and this gives me a very good proposition to bring this up to whoever will listen. My email to LTA can't prove that the shop is jacking up the COE price, thus if I can get a quotation from the shop that there are dual pricing for those buying with COE and for those without, we will be able to stop these "bidding under dealers" rules.

    But I don't think they will be selling with dual price as that will fall under price discrimination which is against the law. So all I'm asking is for all those who wants to buy a bike to bid their own COE. Let the shop lock their cash on those COE they bid. We should be paying the same price as what the shop offers as we are all paying for the same COE, and this is a small move from us to stop this ridiculous COE pricing.

    Deposit is only $200 and from what I read, this $200 goes to paying the COE as well. Bid a price you are comfortable with as I can't fix an amt for everyone to bid, that will be market manipulation. What I'm suggesting here is a change in our way of buying. Yes, we will have to wait longer before we get to ride the bike, but I personally feel that it's worth it.
    Will it be against any law if the shop refuse to sell the bike to you using your own COE?
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorp View Post
    When the shop indicate the machine price, that is the price they are selling and they should not inflat the price if we are not getting COE from them. If they do so, that will be against the law where they proved that they are profiting from bidding the COE and this gives me a very good proposition to bring this up to whoever will listen. My email to LTA can't prove that the shop is jacking up the COE price, thus if I can get a quotation from the shop that there are dual pricing for those buying with COE and for those without, we will be able to stop these "bidding under dealers" rules.

    But I don't think they will be selling with dual price as that will fall under price discrimination which is against the law. So all I'm asking is for all those who wants to buy a bike to bid their own COE. Let the shop lock their cash on those COE they bid. We should be paying the same price as what the shop offers as we are all paying for the same COE, and this is a small move from us to stop this ridiculous COE pricing.

    Deposit is only $200 and from what I read, this $200 goes to paying the COE as well. Bid a price you are comfortable with as I can't fix an amt for everyone to bid, that will be market manipulation. What I'm suggesting here is a change in our way of buying. Yes, we will have to wait longer before we get to ride the bike, but I personally feel that it's worth it.
    Quote Originally Posted by duo View Post
    Will it be against any law if the shop refuse to sell the bike to you using your own COE?
    Exactly. Nothing to stop the shop from charging "Administrative" or "Paperwork processing" fees.

    Also, they could just state that the price you are getting if you have the bid for the COE is a "Discounted" price. If you supply your own coe, discount does not apply.
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    victorp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orleng View Post
    Exactly. Nothing to stop the shop from charging "Administrative" or "Paperwork processing" fees.

    Also, they could just state that the price you are getting if you have the bid for the COE is a "Discounted" price. If you supply your own coe, discount does not apply.
    If they were to do that, make sure we record the conversation. This is a very good point for us to prove a point that the shop profit from bidding the COE. All fee that should be charged must be the same disregarding the fact that whoever bid the COE. Don't see the point where they charge an administrative fee when we are doing the job of bidding the COE.

    But having said so, if they were to give you a discounted price for taking their COE, please take it!! Do your homework, compare the machine price. They might be clearing their COE when giving discount thus it will be a good deal.

    Do note that COE need to be transferred within 3 month. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorp View Post
    If they were to do that, make sure we record the conversation. This is a very good point for us to prove a point that the shop profit from bidding the COE. All fee that should be charged must be the same disregarding the fact that whoever bid the COE. Don't see the point where they charge an administrative fee when we are doing the job of bidding the COE.

    But having said so, if they were to give you a discounted price for taking their COE, please take it!! Do your homework, compare the machine price. They might be clearing their COE when giving discount thus it will be a good deal.

    Do note that COE need to be transferred within 3 month. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    A,B,D 6months. C,E 3months.

    "Administrative" for processing the registration of vehicle and submission of documents etc. They can always claim these fees are "waived" for direct purchases whereby they supply an already registered vehicle (COE applied).

    The "discount" would be their "normal price" whereas the inflated price quoted if you utilise your own COE is the "normal" price.

    They have the rights to offer you a discount or offer to waive paperwork fees.

    If what you are saying is true, then we should go after all F&B establishments that charge corkage.



    That aside, I'm pretty sure there are riders who have indeed bid for and obtained coe on their own. As I recall seeing some ads for bike sales stating that it's "0" transfers done before.

    Whether the shop wants to sell you the vehicle if you have your own COE, is entirely up to them. They're not compelled to do so.
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    Sometimes we can't help but to just follow the market trend. Consumer are always on the losing ends regardless of what goods or products. For example food and drinks, increase in price in wholesaler, your nearby hawker or chai fan stall will take the chance to increase as well citing rising costs. Public transport, transport will raise cost citing raising COES, or number of years never raise prices so must raise.

    Yeah bike shop or dealer always like to charge what admin fees. Of course you can walk away from the deal but for how long you are ok without the bike or car that you wanted? number of months, or years?

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    While I agree that dealers have no incentive to bid low, since they just transfer the cost to the buyer, the responsibility is still with us, the buyers, who choose to pay for it.

    What I find a lot more upsetting is the transfer from CAT D to CAT E COE - how can the LTA justify transferring the COE from deregistered bikes to the "Open" category? The result is an increase in the number of cars, and a decrease in the number of bikes on the road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by di_andrei View Post
    While I agree that dealers have no incentive to bid low, since they just transfer the cost to the buyer, the responsibility is still with us, the buyers, who choose to pay for it.

    What I find a lot more upsetting is the transfer from CAT D to CAT E COE - how can the LTA justify transferring the COE from deregistered bikes to the "Open" category? The result is an increase in the number of cars, and a decrease in the number of bikes on the road.
    Perhaps just perhaps that was their objective. So more cars on the road = country is successful = the citizens are wealthy. As we all know majority of the people still thinks riding a bike is for the poor. So if more bikes on the road it will give the opposite image. Also there is still the thinking that successful = owning a car. Also to suck more from the citizens.
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    victorp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orleng View Post
    "Administrative" for processing the registration of vehicle and submission of documents etc. They can always claim these fees are "waived" for direct purchases whereby they supply an already registered vehicle (COE applied).

    The "discount" would be their "normal price" whereas the inflated price quoted if you utilise your own COE is the "normal" price.

    They have the rights to offer you a discount or offer to waive paperwork fees.
    Yes, they have the rights to do so and even the right to not sell you the vehicle. What I'm trying to say is if they did as what you said, then this is a very good point to prove that they are profiting from bidding the COE. Else I don't see the point of charging extra when we use the COE we bid ourselves. Corkage is charged because the restaurant profit from the beverages they sell, but they will lose out on that profit if you bring yours.

    Just need a kind soul, who is buying a bike now, and had successfully bid a COE to give me all these evidence. I will do my best to follow up with the email to LTA and going to MP. What we can do is let all riders believe that it is possible to bid our own COE and still buy the bike at machine price instead of making everyone here think that there is no way out but just pay up.

    Like what bro hachi said, bidding only takes 5 min via ATM and he too encourage bidding the COE ourselves.

    Let's work towards that and solve the problem instead of making everyone believe that it is impossible.

    Bro Orleng, not trying to go against you but just trying my best to change the system. A little too much to ask for so need everyone's help here. Take a look at the next bidding especially the last 20 min and tell me if I'm the only poor guy where everyone else start their bid 5k and above or something is really wrong here.

    Quote Originally Posted by di_andrei View Post
    What I find a lot more upsetting is the transfer from CAT D to CAT E COE - how can the LTA justify transferring the COE from deregistered bikes to the "Open" category? The result is an increase in the number of cars, and a decrease in the number of bikes on the road.
    Actually a percentage of all category when de-register their vehicle will be transferred to CAT E, not just CAT D. But think the government just want $$. Transfer a CAT D COE to CAT E = 60k more profit as compared to just from CAT A to CAT E where they only earn like 20k more.

     

     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orleng View Post
    Y'know. Since it costs only $200 to bid for a coe, as a group, we can mess with the shops. Since they're usually the ones with large volumes of coe.


    Whole load of riders bid 10k, raise the coe, then no one uses it. We each lose $200, but can leave the shops holding expensive coe for 6mths.

    If they don't utilise, it will be recycled back into the next quarter's coe allocation, potentially dropping prices for that 1 bidding cycle.

    Just a theory.

    Of course if the shops know when the large bunch of unused coe will be recycled, they could make more bids and keep the prices inflated.
    So u mean only $200 is deducted when u make a bidding? If so, I'm on board but let's find sufficient ppl 1st. I suggest to bid $20K. Shall we target the bidding closest to national day?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yahmarhuh View Post
    So u mean only $200 is deducted when u make a bidding? If so, I'm on board but let's find sufficient ppl 1st. I suggest to bid $20K. Shall we target the bidding closest to national day?
    Bro, we will need at least 500 riders with $200 to blow for this to work. The shop will just tell those buyer to wait for the next bidding exercise. And if some fellow riders really need a ride fast, this will be damaging to them.

    But then again, this will be headline news if we managed to pull this through. Hahahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorp View Post
    Yes, they have the rights to do so and even the right to not sell you the vehicle. What I'm trying to say is if they did as what you said, then this is a very good point to prove that they are profiting from bidding the COE. Else I don't see the point of charging extra when we use the COE we bid ourselves. Corkage is charged because the restaurant profit from the beverages they sell, but they will lose out on that profit if you bring yours.

    Just need a kind soul, who is buying a bike now, and had successfully bid a COE to give me all these evidence. I will do my best to follow up with the email to LTA and going to MP. What we can do is let all riders believe that it is possible to bid our own COE and still buy the bike at machine price instead of making everyone here think that there is no way out but just pay up.

    Like what bro hachi said, bidding only takes 5 min via ATM and he too encourage bidding the COE ourselves.

    Let's work towards that and solve the problem instead of making everyone believe that it is impossible.

    Bro Orleng, not trying to go against you but just trying my best to change the system. A little too much to ask for so need everyone's help here. Take a look at the next bidding especially the last 20 min and tell me if I'm the only poor guy where everyone else start their bid 5k and above or something is really wrong here.



    Actually a percentage of all category when de-register their vehicle will be transferred to CAT E, not just CAT D. But think the government just want $$. Transfer a CAT D COE to CAT E = 60k more profit as compared to just from CAT A to CAT E where they only earn like 20k more.
    They charge a different price because the shop profits from interest charged on the COE (assuming one takes a loan), but they will lose out on that profit if you bring yours. It would be hard pressed to justify that the "administrative charges" is tantamount to pricing discrimination, or rather to quantify that it is so. Unless there is an industry standard rate for such services rendered. Likewise, you can't go after say an electronics goods retailer that offers you a discounted price for taking up their instalment scheme. Yes, they are profiting from bidding for the COE, as do many car sales agencies. Is it illegal? Doubt so.

    The idea is sound, that everyone bids for their own COE. If I were buying a bike, I definitely would. Just saying that if I then approached a shop and they charged me additional administrative fees, or are unable to offer me a "discounted" price, or tell me that their stocks are booked for customers using their services/admin to sort out COE. We could be at a loss if that's the case.

    In the car sector, people would have tried the same before.

    The shops are bidding at the last hour, everyone knows that. Fact is that most riders will not be paying cash up front, so they will need finance companies to step in with the loans. These companies are likely to have a vested interest in ensuring that the COEs remain high as well so that they can benefit from the interest charged. If not the bike shop, the finance companies will bid or find a way to encourage the bike shops to bid.

    These finance companies can always reject your loan application if not applied by a shop. The shop that sells you the bike. Said shop may charge you more for registering the COE in your name, then transferring to them, to enable a loan be worked out with the finance companies.

    So, unless everyone starts paying their bike in full cash, we're going to have to accept the fact that the COEs will remain inflated. The only way it will go down is if people collectively stop buying bikes for 6 months or more to dump losses onto the bike shops holding TCOE.
    Smile! Tomorrow will be worse.

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    yes, you are losing $200 if you allow the COE to be expired and lapse. have you given a thought that you might in fact be pushing the COE price up? If the shop bidded for $6,000 and with your $20,000. you pushed the COE price up to $19,XXX? when the COE hits the roof by then, COE true market value is way above market. from $19,000 maybe take 10 years to come down to $6,000?

    you have to understand that your bidded COE can be unused and unregistered, so does the shop bidded COE can be unused and unregistered.

    ultimately the shop has cash to play with the system, consumer do not have. the COE system is smart yet screwed and unfair at the same time.
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    let's wait for govt to impose loan restriction on bikes too. but with the relaxing of loan on cars, doesn't look like its gonna happen. next big change will be satellite erp, lets see.

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    Guys, not sure if this is good news... My friend had enquired 2 bike shop, and they allow buying of bike without COE... Although the price is not less 100% of the current COE, but it's like 95%++ still... Like what bro Orleng said, they might charge an admin fee...

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    The COE bidding exercise had started once again... For those who wish to find out more, please visit https://www.onemotoring.com.sg/1m/coe/coeDetail.html

    The "happening" period will be 7th July between 2 to 4pm... You might be able to observe big jump in the COE pricing of a few thousand...
    Last edited by victorp; 04-07-2016 at 07:51 PM.

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    Noticed the COE increases a bit more? Some observations, it seem like there are less new big bikes around...Unlike the 07-09 golden era, where there were latest models everywhere...
    Bikes Owned: LC125 RXZ135 GSXR400RP CB400VS CB400Spec2 SV650 02CBRF4i FZ1000 CBR929 05YZF-R6 CBR150 HondaSonic125 Yamaha_CygnusX125 KymcoGrandink_250 Hornet_250 04_Yamaha_Tmax Silverwing 400 FZ6_S2 GSXR600K7

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    Quote Originally Posted by kifakw View Post
    ultimately the shop has cash to play with the system, consumer do not have. the COE system is smart yet screwed and unfair at the same time.
    Well, the Gov will say it is a free market, I used this statement when I was in stat board as well.. The power of leverage makes thing seem cheap...
    Going to transfer my pocket rocket tomorrow....Looking for my 20th bike....Hopefully COE can come plummeting down.
    Advocate of self bidding as the upfront cost of bidding compared to car is not that high...Why people just cannot self bid. Once this culture has been established, there is no need to pay interests for this taxation....
    Bikes Owned: LC125 RXZ135 GSXR400RP CB400VS CB400Spec2 SV650 02CBRF4i FZ1000 CBR929 05YZF-R6 CBR150 HondaSonic125 Yamaha_CygnusX125 KymcoGrandink_250 Hornet_250 04_Yamaha_Tmax Silverwing 400 FZ6_S2 GSXR600K7

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    coe so expensive now..........................................
    I have Mother Teresa's heart <3

     

     
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    Quote Originally Posted by hachi View Post
    Advocate of self bidding as the upfront cost of bidding compared to car is not that high...Why people just cannot self bid. Once this culture has been established, there is no need to pay interests for this taxation....

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    ll today be any different from last month....Why COE has not bear yet....
    Bikes Owned: LC125 RXZ135 GSXR400RP CB400VS CB400Spec2 SV650 02CBRF4i FZ1000 CBR929 05YZF-R6 CBR150 HondaSonic125 Yamaha_CygnusX125 KymcoGrandink_250 Hornet_250 04_Yamaha_Tmax Silverwing 400 FZ6_S2 GSXR600K7

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    Today is a very depressing day... The dealers triumph once again in the game of "COE Bidding"... There might be individual bidding at such high amount, definitely, not just dealers... I believe such individual must be really in need of the COE as no one will be in the right state of mind to pay $6k for a piece of paper when you can even get it at $1... *Yes, I am dreaming

    Not sure am I the only one who thinks that COE at $6k is overrated as there seems to be no issue with the shop selling their bike... I will ride my bike for another 5 more years then... hahaha

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    Last 7 mins, over 100 bids came in and surge to 6k, I am thinking if the jokers just bid $200, it would stayed here. I seldom see FBL bikes running around....If really drop to $1 will just get myself a cheap new bike for 5-6k, I never had a new bike before....
    Bikes Owned: LC125 RXZ135 GSXR400RP CB400VS CB400Spec2 SV650 02CBRF4i FZ1000 CBR929 05YZF-R6 CBR150 HondaSonic125 Yamaha_CygnusX125 KymcoGrandink_250 Hornet_250 04_Yamaha_Tmax Silverwing 400 FZ6_S2 GSXR600K7

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorp View Post
    Today is a very depressing day... The dealers triumph once again in the game of "COE Bidding"... There might be individual bidding at such high amount, definitely, not just dealers... I believe such individual must be really in need of the COE as no one will be in the right state of mind to pay $6k for a piece of paper when you can even get it at $1... *Yes, I am dreaming

    Not sure am I the only one who thinks that COE at $6k is overrated as there seems to be no issue with the shop selling their bike... I will ride my bike for another 5 more years then... hahaha
    To have the latest bike they will do anything. Plus nowadays seen many new bikes with p-plates. But then again maybe in the areas I frequent. Not sure about other places though. Also many shops makes it 'affordable' with zero downpayment and loans that stretch up to 5 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by hachi View Post
    Last 7 mins, over 100 bids came in and surge to 6k, I am thinking if the jokers just bid $200, it would stayed here. I seldom see FBL bikes running around....If really drop to $1 will just get myself a cheap new bike for 5-6k, I never had a new bike before....
    Lucky I got to get a new one before the COE starts to increase tremendously. Actually years ago had planned to change bike and get a FBM plate. But seeing how things are guess got to cancel that plan.
    KRGT-1
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    It more like no choice but to follow the trend. it insane to pay high prices for a 2b bike.. Heck the price can even get you a decent class 2 bike but no choice.
    Well now if COE drop tremendously, I also will be scared my old 2b bike can't sell but to keep for full 10 years liao...

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    Quote Originally Posted by simeone82 View Post
    It more like no choice but to follow the trend. it insane to pay high prices for a 2b bike.. Heck the price can even get you a decent class 2 bike but no choice.
    Well now if COE drop tremendously, I also will be scared my old 2b bike can't sell but to keep for full 10 years liao...
    For me I would would buy a new bike only if I will be riding the bike more than 5 years. If not then just a used one will do. However been noticing alot of those who just passed and bought brand new bikes. Used less than 2 years then sell off to upgrade and the cycle repeats. Maybe they can afford it. I dunno. Current bike is brand new back when the COE was just 3 digits. Now its multiplied more than 10 folds! Guess will be riding it till its time to scrap seeing how crazy the COE is.
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    COE for CAT D can go lower for sure... Total Quota is 409, but 44 unused... Such a waste...

    Due to my browser refresh rate, I cannot be sure that I'm right.. But I did saw the jump from 5k to 6k in the last min, this means that many people put their reserve at more than 6k and when the quota is not enough at the 5k mark, it jump straight to 6k...

    And if you know how the bidding system works, you will know that it is almost impossible to have such a high unused rate... Meaning a dealer bid 45 COE at price X and only 44 are available... Thus this price X is pushed out of the successful bid range... Of cos this could also be the case where 45 individuals bid the same amount, and due to the transparency of this bidding system, what actually happened could only be our best guess...


    https://www.lta.gov.sg/content/ltawe...ement-coe.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorp View Post
    Everyone can only bid one application except for companies. So we all know who really pushes the COE up...

     

     
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    this is how coe works. bike shop bid for coe (without buyer). coe must be registered within 6 mths of successful bidding. buyer comes buy new bike. bike shop take sweet time say bidding on your behalf, but they monitoring see if coe go higher. near shelf life, they give u their stock coe. coe start from date of register but u will not know when they bid for it. reason : coe rebate.

    buyer walks in buy bike without coe, bike will cost more than coupled with coe.

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    I was recently introduced to this guy by a friend of mine. He had purchased a black kawasaki ninja without COE bundled.

    My friend, knowing that I'm very into lower the COE, arranged a meet up for me with this guy. Asked him several question but I believe you guys are more interested in the following question.

    Q: Is it really more expensive to buy the bike without COE?
    A: Yes and no according to him. He said that the bike price coupled with COE is normally fixed. So long you buy with the COE, the price of the bike this month and the next will be the same, unless the COE price changed drastically. But when buying without COE, most shop will use that "fixed price" less the COE of that month. If a bike is $10k with COE, and COE cost $1k this month, the bike will cost $9k without COE. But if the COE price is $2k next month, the bike will cost $8k. This is a simple scenario and in real life, the bike will cost $9.1k instead of just $9k. How you save $$ is by bidding the COE when it is $1k and buy the bike when the COE is $2k. But there is no control over the COE for the next month so I ignore it.

    Q: Will the shop not sell you bike if you have your own COE?
    A: Most shop will still sell you the bike. (He showed me email and SMS reply from those shop where he ask the price for the bike without COE) The question is how much they want to earn. If you have a workshop that you always go to, you can even ask the shop to help you buy the bike without COE. This is what he advise me to do saying that is the cheapest. From my point of view, you have 3 month to source, no rush.

    Q: Paperwork
    A: Pay the shop to do for you, $50 (excluding any payable by LTA)

    Q: Insurance
    A: The same with or without own COE. If the bike is still under hired purchase, most shop requires you to get their assigned insurance.

    Final thought, I asked him the price he paid for his kawasaki and it is about the same price as when you buy off the counter when I checked online, less the extra effort. Worth it? Not really. Should we do it then? I think we should, or the COE will continue to be this high.

    The demand for bike is not there at all when the loan for car lax, the number of bids and the number of unused COE for CAT D showed everything. Yet the increase in CAT D COE every month makes it as if everyone wants a bike as their mode of transport.

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    thanks for sharing the information. Good to know

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    is it just me or do the LTA answers contradict each other?

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    http://www.tnp.sg/news/singapore/mot...rise-surprises

    Even motor shop also said this, "speculative hoarding".

    Mr Nicholas Wong, general manager of Honda agent Kah Motor, said there will be 10 per cent more COEs for motorbikes soon because the two-wheeler category will no longer have to contribute to the Open COE category.

    "There was no reason for companies to bid aggressively," he said, adding that speculative "hoarding" by bigger players might have contributed to the price rise.

    "The Government should make bike COEs non-transferable, like those for cars," he added.

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    It would be better to just split the COE category by CC. Make one category for every 200cc. So one for >=200, 201-400, 401-600, 601-800, 801-1000 and finally 1000+.

    Throw in 6 different categories and this will make it hard for bike shops to predict which category to get more of, and thus they will be more modest in how many COE's they grab, by playing it safe lest it be wasted. I think the only problem here is because the 200cc category is predictable, as it makes up 70% of all the bikes. Maybe further subdivision here is needed.

    Or another method is to tie the bidding process to IC, where 1 IC can only bid for 1 COE per cycle. This will mean the buyer is forced to bid for the COE for themselves since it essentially blocks dealers from bidding for you, or you have to wait a bloody long time.

    Right now preventing the transfer of COE has a small chance of hurting some of the unsuspecting newer buyers who do not know better. Dealer could just wait out the no-transfer period and give the buyer a bike with a COE that is less by X months.
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    Quote Originally Posted by reize View Post
    It would be better to just split the COE category by CC. Make one category for every 200cc. So one for >=200, 201-400, 401-600, 601-800, 801-1000 and finally 1000+.

    Throw in 6 different categories and this will make it hard for bike shops to predict which category to get more of, and thus they will be more modest in how many COE's they grab, by playing it safe lest it be wasted. I think the only problem here is because the 200cc category is predictable, as it makes up 70% of all the bikes. Maybe further subdivision here is needed.

    Or another method is to tie the bidding process to IC, where 1 IC can only bid for 1 COE per cycle. This will mean the buyer is forced to bid for the COE for themselves since it essentially blocks dealers from bidding for you, or you have to wait a bloody long time.

    Right now preventing the transfer of COE has a small chance of hurting some of the unsuspecting newer buyers who do not know better. Dealer could just wait out the no-transfer period and give the buyer a bike with a COE that is less by X months.
    wah so many CAT, might as well suggest u bid per CC. So if use to register a 200cc bike, multiply ur COE by 200 and if use to register a 1000cc bike, multiply by 1000!

    on ur suggestion, there is greater demand for <200cc COEs. This might make COEs below 200cc the most expensive Cat!

    Anyway, there are many suggestions on how to reduce COE levels but all these will reduce govt's revenue collection. Y would they do it?

    They finally stop the leakage to Open Cat after they found a way to get an alternative revenue stream via the new ARF.
    Liverpool revival has started....

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorp View Post
    This is my first post on this forum so pardon me if I break any rules.

    I had been following the COE (cat D) for the recent 1 year and after following multiple emails with LTA, I believe the cause for the high COE is due to the dealer being able to bid the COE.

    I enquired with LTA and received an email from them on 9th June 2015 with the following statement:



    I thus replied with information of my bike. I was issued a COE that the dealer bid 3 month before I purchased my bike. Given their statement, I could only think that the dealer is able to foresee that I will walk into their shop and buy from them, thus they bid a COE on my behalf 3 month before. But they replied on 14th September 2015, after multiple chaser, with the following statement:



    We all know that to own a vehicle, we need the COE. What is stopping the dealer to bid high for the COE when they bear no cost as that will be paid by us, the rider.

    I understand that some rider here will be asking why do I think that the dealer will bid such a high price for COE? So let me explain why I thought so.

    - Firstly, every dealer/bike shop can have the physical bike, but only the shop that has the COE can sell those bike. COE for bike can be used for all cc, from your scooter to your harley so this COE (cat D) is very versatile. This encourage the dealer to bid for a lot of COE so that they can proceed with the sales.

    - Secondly, if you look at the information LTA provided (transparent system), the bid amount distribution varies with huge differences. Search for the information here, Distribution of Successful Bids, and you will be surprised. People are actually bidding >40% of the QP. Do let me know with your replies here that you will bid with an amount of $10k and more for the COE as I don't know of any rider who would does that. BUT!!! The dealer will, as there will always be riders needing a ride and do they have a choice when LTA release the COE bidding result and the dealer just tell you "bo bian".

    I know that it is easy for the dealer to do everything for us. And also the joy of getting a new bike within a few days after signing the paper. But we need to wake up as this is really bad for people who need the bike in their course of work. The solution is simple, only allow the dealer to bid with a actual buyer or disallow transfer of the COE for the first 3 month.

    Although I can profit from selling my bike, amazing that I can sell my bike now for the same price I paid for it 4 years back, I would rather everyone who wish to ride be able to do so.
    Reading this in 2017 April. COE is 8k already. Haha..

  50. #50
    victorp
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    I am still fighting this battle. Just sent a email to minister of transport 3 weeks back.

    As usual, we don't get any reply from the ministers themselves but his PA.

    We refer to your email of 16 March 2017, which was addressed to Minister for Transport Mr Khaw Boon Wan.

    We appreciate the time you have taken to share with us your thoughts on the COE system for motorcycles.

    We have taken note of your suggestion to restrict the transfer of ownership for motorcycles registered using Cat D COEs, and will take this into consideration as part of our regular COE policy reviews.

    Thank you for your feedback.

    Yours sincerely
    Next task is to find out when is the COE policy review!!!

    I still believe that there is still hope in this world, no matter how many times the system tries/had screws us

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