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Thread: Revision of Class 2 license system

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    mechwira
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    i've had this idea in my head for a long time. how bout changing the motorcycle license system to as follows:

    Riders aged 21 and above

    they will go for circuit and road lessons and tests on 250/400cc bikes. upon passing, they will be awarded Class 2A, ie, eligible to ride motorcycles of up to 400cc, for 1 year after date of passing. after 1 year, they will be awarded Class 2, ie, motorcycles of 400cc and above, without a need for any further tests, road or circuit; in other words, automatic upgrade.

    Riders between 18 and 21 years old

    they will go for curcuit and road lessons and tests on 125/150cc bikes. upon passing, they will be awarded class 2B, ie, eligible to ride bikes up to 200cc, until the age of 21, regardless of years of riding experience. upon hitting the age of 21, even if less than 1 year of 2B at this point, they will be eligible to take lessons and tests on 250/400cc bikes, circuit only, no road, and upon passing be awarded Class 2A and will be then be same as i mentioned earlier. 1 year of up to 400cc, then automatic upgrade to Class 2.


    i got the idea coz most western countries dun have our system of 3 tiered motorcycle license. even Japan has phased out its old system, causing sportsbikes of 400cc to completely go out of prouction. i heard in australia, its the same system as my first paragraph.

    will it make it easier for ppl to get bike license, causing more riders on the road? i dont think so. number of riders is 'controlled' by the first time any rider is awarded Class 2B. my system does not change this at all, only the capacity of the bikes.

    will it produce less safe riders? heres an interesting issue to discuss. i dont think so. are we any less capable than our western counterparts? i just feel that this way, we save lots of time and money. i dun feel a need for me to take class 2 and go thru the same circuit a third time in my life. waste my time and money and how does it really make me a better rider any more than going out on a class 2 bike immediately, bearing in mind my system also has in place a necessary 1 year riding adjustment period.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    WildCard
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    Originally posted by mechwira@May 19 2004, 11:35 PM
    i've had this idea in my head for a long time. how bout changing the motorcycle license system to as follows:

    Riders aged 21 and above

    they will go for circuit and road lessons and tests on 250/400cc bikes. upon passing, they will be awarded Class 2A, ie, eligible to ride motorcycles of up to 400cc, for 1 year after date of passing. after 1 year, they will be awarded Class 2, ie, motorcycles of 400cc and above,without a need for any further tests, road or circuit; in other words, automatic upgrade.

    Riders between 18 and 21 years old

    they will go for curcuit and road lessons and tests on 125/150cc bikes. upon passing, they will be awarded class 2B, ie, eligible to ride bikes up to 200cc, until the age of 21, regardless of years of riding experience. upon hitting the age of 21, even if less than 1 year of 2B at this point, they will be eligible to take lessons and tests on 250/400cc bikes, circuit only, no road, and upon passing be awarded Class 2A and will be then be same as i mentioned earlier. 1 year of up to 400cc, then automatic upgrade to Class 2.


    i got the idea coz most western countries dun have our system of 3 tiered motorcycle license. even Japan has phased out its old system, causing sportsbikes of 400cc to completely go out of prouction. i heard in australia, its the same system as my first paragraph.

    will it make it easier for ppl to get bike license, causing more riders on the road? i dont think so. number of riders is 'controlled' by the first time any rider is awarded Class 2B. my system does not change this at all, only the capacity of the bikes.

    will it produce less safe riders? heres an interesting issue to discuss. i dont think so. are we any less capable than our western counterparts? i just feel that this way, we save lots of time and money. i dun feel a need for me to take class 2 and go thru the same circuit a third time in my life. waste my time and money and how does it really make me a better rider any more than going out on a class 2 bike immediately, bearing in mind my system also has in place a necessary 1 year riding adjustment period.
    I agree with most except the point highlighted....
    An automatic upgrade may not be safe. Maybe an auto upgrade from 200cc to 400cc is more apt.
    But knowing riders these days, if given a chance, most will make a big jump to 1litre. It would be better to assess them and make sure they know their big bikes well.
    Example? Lifting a bike from the ground. Looks easy at training centre, especially the method. Until I dropped my own TLR.

    Just my $0.02 worth.

     

     
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    RG
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    Originally posted by mechwira@May 19 2004, 11:35 PM
    i've had this idea in my head for a long time. how bout changing the motorcycle license system to as follows:

    Riders aged 21 and above

    they will go for circuit and road lessons and tests on 250/400cc bikes. upon passing, they will be awarded Class 2A, ie, eligible to ride motorcycles of up to 400cc, for 1 year after date of passing. after 1 year, they will be awarded Class 2, ie, motorcycles of 400cc and above, without a need for any further tests, road or circuit; in other words, automatic upgrade.

    i got the idea coz most western countries dun have our system of 3 tiered motorcycle license. even Japan has phased out its old system, causing sportsbikes of 400cc to completely go out of prouction. i heard in australia, its the same system as my first paragraph.

    U must have heard wrongly.
    There is no automatic upgrade in Australia.
    Still have to take test den can upgrade.

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    But why does age have to be such a big issue then?

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    interesting

    with your proposed system the market for 400cc bikes will die. how many 400cc bikes do you see OTR? you can see the tiered licensing system as a market mechanism for motorbikes. with any change in policy, money is a very important factor.

    i think your proposed 2 tiered system will work well together with the existing DIPS system. perhaps a license for 250cc below and 600cc above, provided there is enough market impetus for such a change.

    i think a licensing change is inevitable, considering the global market for 400cc bikes is dwindling i.e. theres no incentive for manufacturers and governments to impose a 400cc limit. most new bikes seem to be 250cc below and 600cc above.

    that said, it will take a major political or economic event to prompt a change in any system in singapore. e.g. a direct result of the FTA with the USA prompted the implementation of a new movie classification system here - ensuring a larger market for hollywood films and media products. now more people can watch movies that would have been rated R(A) under the old system.
    ISPs are starting to take action against illegal downloads of copyrighted media. the police is stepping up checks on software pirates.

    if only the US had a major motorcycle manufacturer it might force the gahment's hand in changing its licensing policy as well.

    lastly, does age matter when it comes to handling a bike and riding safely? or does maturity and education? a different system based on age will have its flaws and debatable points as well.

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    mechwira
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    Originally posted by WildCard@May 20 2004, 11:16 AM

    I agree with most except the point highlighted....
    An automatic upgrade may not be safe. Maybe an auto upgrade from 200cc to 400cc is more apt.
    But knowing riders these days, if given a chance, most will make a big jump to 1litre. It would be better to assess them and make sure they know their big bikes well.
    Example? Lifting a bike from the ground. Looks easy at training centre, especially the method. Until I dropped my own TLR.

    Just my $0.02 worth.
    fair point, but consider that drivers, upon passing their class 3, are able to immediately jump onto high performance cars like lancer evo, impreza wrx, skylines, even nsx and ferraris and porsches. these cars are easily the performance equivalent of at least a 600cc sportsbikes, perhaps even a top-of-the-line 1000cc sportsbike. what makes the driver more capable than the rider? frankly i think a car does more damage.

    fair point about a toppled bike, but if thats the only difference between high performance cars and high performance bikes, u really feel that this minor point is enuff to tell riders they cannot immediately jump onto higher capacity bikes?

    taking 2A and 2 involves merely riding around the circuit with a higher capacity bike. sure, it introduces a person to the bigger bike, but does it make enuff of a difference to the rider to warrant a minimum of $300 and 3 months?

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    Originally posted by RG@May 20 2004, 01:27 PM
    U must have heard wrongly.
    There is no automatic upgrade in Australia.
    Still have to take test den can upgrade.
    mebbe its different in defferemt parts of australia, but a fren of mine studying there did take the lessons, and this is wat he related to me:

    the lessons used the hornet250. pass the theory and u can ride up to 400cc, no pillion allowed. pass the circuit test and u get to ride, for 1 year after that, up to 400cc without pillion. after 1 year, anything goes.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    Originally posted by StingRhea@May 20 2004, 03:08 PM
    But why does age have to be such a big issue then?
    frankly, i just added it to anticipate the cunter-argument about riders under 21 being the most prone to serous and fatal accidents. to be honest, i agree with the counter-argument, but i feel the focus is the age/maturity, not the capacity. but then again, ppl 'upstairs' might not so readily understand or agree, hence my pre-emptive strike.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    Originally posted by jasonX9@May 20 2004, 03:16 PM
    interesting

    with your proposed system the market for 400cc bikes will die. how many 400cc bikes do you see OTR? you can see the tiered licensing system as a market mechanism for motorbikes. with any change in policy, money is a very important factor.

    i think your proposed 2 tiered system will work well together with the existing DIPS system. perhaps a license for 250cc below and 600cc above, provided there is enough market impetus for such a change.

    i think a licensing change is inevitable, considering the global market for 400cc bikes is dwindling i.e. theres no incentive for manufacturers and governments to impose a 400cc limit. most new bikes seem to be 250cc below and 600cc above.

    that said, it will take a major political or economic event to prompt a change in any system in singapore. e.g. a direct result of the FTA with the USA prompted the implementation of a new movie classification system here - ensuring a larger market for hollywood films and media products. now more people can watch movies that would have been rated R(A) under the old system.
    ISPs are starting to take action against illegal downloads of copyrighted media. the police is stepping up checks on software pirates.

    if only the US had a major motorcycle manufacturer it might force the gahment's hand in changing its licensing policy as well.

    lastly, does age matter when it comes to handling a bike and riding safely? or does maturity and education? a different system based on age will have its flaws and debatable points as well.
    like you said, the market for 400cc bikes is already dead. globally, 400cc bikes are a no-factor. even the RS250 has gone out of production. the only such bikes i can think of still available as new are super4, hornet250, the new twister cbx250 (interestingly all honda). the rest are are the various scooters/skippers (which are a market all their own), and no sportsbikes. why? coz nobody else in the world outside of SEA have our system or anything similar.

    i'd like to confess that one of the factors that gave me this idea is the very fact that the 400cc market is dead. theres a large variety of 2B bikes available, and same for 600cc and 1000cc bikes. but 250/400cc? i strongly feel that the current trend of bike production has made our Class 2A license obsolete. the presence of the Super4 is not because of the existence of a market here. far from it, it exists because theres a market for it in Japan despite the fact that these ppl riding the Super4 are fully allowed to ride bigger capacity bikes. we're the only place outside of Japan which gets the Super4. if tomorrow the market for super4 dies, and honda stops producing it, tell me, what can we do with a class 2A? dont forget, all other 2nd hand 250/400cc models like the sportsbikes are getting older and dwindling every year.

    and regarding the age issue, pls see my earlier explanation. like i explained, it is merely an anticipated counter to possible arguments. yes, i do feel age, particularly under 21, is an issue regarding maturity of the rider, but NOT the capacity of the bike. hence truthfully, if u are gonna say no need for the Class 2B for under21, i realli will not argue.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    mechwira
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    Originally posted by jasonX9@May 20 2004, 03:16 PM

    that said, it will take a major political or economic event to prompt a change in any system in singapore. e.g. a direct result of the FTA with the USA prompted the implementation of a new movie classification system here - ensuring a larger market for hollywood films and media products. now more people can watch movies that would have been rated R(A) under the old system.
    ISPs are starting to take action against illegal downloads of copyrighted media. the police is stepping up checks on software pirates.

    if only the US had a major motorcycle manufacturer it might force the gahment's hand in changing its licensing policy as well.
    oh, and regarding this point, well hey somebody has to get the ball rolling right?

    but i disagree about your point regarding US influence. my proposal does not affect the US trade in motorcycles in any way. US is not a factor at all in our local motorcycle industry, minus their harleys, which in no way will be affected by my proposal since they all are at least 800cc anyway. in fact, i dun see how a change will adversely affect any major producer of motorcycles. we dont import any malaysian made bikes excpet the TZM, and thailand's and korea's small bikes will still be in demand coz they're not due to our license system, ppl want them despite availability of bigger bikes due to economic considerations.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    RG
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    Originally posted by mechwira@May 20 2004, 05:31 PM
    mebbe its different in defferemt parts of australia, but a fren of mine studying there did take the lessons, and this is wat he related to me:

    the lessons used the hornet250. pass the theory and u can ride up to 400cc, no pillion allowed. pass the circuit test and u get to ride, for 1 year after that, up to 400cc without pillion. after 1 year, anything goes.
    Yes, u r right, I know in Victoria n Tasmania they restricted the 'R' license for 12mths. After 12mths, it is unrestricted w/o having to take any test.
    But within the 12mths period, the rider is only allowed up to 260CC(in VIC).


    Ride up to 400CC with a restricted 'R' license? where is your friend located?

     

     
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    Originally posted by mechwira@May 20 2004, 05:25 PM
    fair point, but consider that drivers, upon passing their class 3, are able to immediately jump onto high performance cars like lancer evo, impreza wrx, skylines, even nsx and ferraris and porsches. these cars are easily the performance equivalent of at least a 600cc sportsbikes, perhaps even a top-of-the-line 1000cc sportsbike. what makes the driver more capable than the rider? frankly i think a car does more damage.

    fair point about a toppled bike, but if thats the only difference between high performance cars and high performance bikes, u really feel that this minor point is enuff to tell riders they cannot immediately jump onto higher capacity bikes?

    taking 2A and 2 involves merely riding around the circuit with a higher capacity bike. sure, it introduces a person to the bigger bike, but does it make enuff of a difference to the rider to warrant a minimum of $300 and 3 months?
    If not riding ard a circuit, at least an assessment?
    They can volunteer for non-compulsory lessons, but a compulsory test might be useful...

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    Maybe someone should write in to the traffic police and bring up all these points, times have changed and the authorities should move with the times. Currently i feel that the class 2B riding test is already of a very high standard, new riders are much better as compared to; say 10years ago. Take the UK for instance, they have a scheme called a direct access thingy, after getting a riding licence eg. 2B for a year; they are allowed to take the direct access test on a 500cc bike. After passing that test you can ride aany class. (read on the Mags so hope this is accurate) I am surprise that the Japs have changed their regulations. Thanks for the info though! All along i thought the 400cc is based on a rd tax cap. Any bike bigger than 400cc will have to pay outrageous taxes. (or is it that they have this licence class like us that why the 400s are so popular... Please enlighten. Thanks~&#33
    Even Automatic car driving test are allowed in singapore already just like in Japan.

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    very gd pts made by everyone.
    I have to agree 200++ - 400cc bikes getting less common day by day n many coutries even in asia also.

    I think age/maturity i would agree. But skill...not every individual is the same.
    I know older riders who have class 2 and they are in their mid 20s or late 20s their riding metality "no tomorrow" so it doesn't makes any diffrence.

    i Got this fren who is 26 now jus got 2B less then 2 mths ago, say we follow the system of riders above 21 go for 250/400cc bikes i dun think its a gd idea.

    250-400cc from say 150 i would say its a big jump for beginners. Not everyone has the same capabilities, at our driving centers u will see more crashes...due to the ablity to control these powerful machines.

    hence i think the current system is gd, althought its a hassel, we find ourselves spending more money and wasting more time waiting to get liecence for our dream bikes.

    How ever i think a simple amendment to the CC limit would do the trick.

    jus sharing my pt of view
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    Hmmz... tried posting twice, but they didn't appear... *scratch head* Trying again...

    Originally posted by mechwira+May 19 2004, 11:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mechwira &#064; May 19 2004, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>i&#39;ve had this idea in my head for a long time. how bout changing the motorcycle license system to as follows:
    [/b]
    Perhaps it won&#39;t be a bad idea to first convince us (and whoever else) how the current system fails us, or is inadequate...

    Personally, I think it&#39;s pretty good the way it is. But some suggestions for changes I&#39;d make would include:

    Raising the minimum age for a motorcycle licence (to say 23 years old?)
    Extending the Provisional period from the current 1 to 2 years. (12 demirit points for 2 years)
    0% alcohol tolerance during the 2 years of provisional. You lose your licence if you have ANYTHING >0.00% BAC.
    No pillion for provisional riders... maybe even (but will be very difficult) no passangers for drivers during their provisional.

    <!--QuoteBegin-RG
    @May 20 2004, 01:27 PM
    U must have heard wrongly.
    There is no automatic upgrade in Australia.
    Still have to take test den can upgrade.
    [/quote]A retest for >250cc is only required in QLD, WA & NT. Most of the other States are an automatic upgrade after 12 months, but a few have a minimum age of 19 before you can ride a large capacity bike. All states have a no pillion restriction whilst under provisional.

    What I&#39;d *really* like is a dedicated rider training center here, not unlike what HART does in Australia. One that conducts optional Intermediate/Advanced riding skills courses, and where some of these courses are actually recognized by the insurance companies, where they lower your premium after you successfully complete them.

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    lets hope 2C will come out hahaha

    2C - veh not exceeding 125cc
    2B - veh not exceeding 250cc
    2A - veh not exceeding 600cc
    2 - veh exceeding 600cc



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    Originally posted by EXC&#045;Alan4@May 20 2004, 11:30 PM
    lets hope 2C will come out hahaha

    2C - veh not exceeding 125cc
    2B - veh not exceeding 250cc
    2A - veh not exceeding 600cc
    2 - veh exceeding 600cc


    very unfair to the people who have yet attained the license....

    i would rather have the system changed by the cc....

    2B - up to 200cc
    2A - up to 600cc
    2 - up to you lah...

    As mentioned many times within the thread, the 400cc bikes are produced only for the sake of singapore, how many NEW models of this category other than Super 4 exists. All major brands have ceased production, GSX, Kawa even honda, for sport bikes.....

    at least if you up the range... the choices are better.
    (not to contradict myself, but i cannot imagine a speed starved, hot-blooded male(dun wish to put age in as factor), to jump from a SP, KRR and all to a G6, 636, CBR600 blah blah) think you all get the picture.......
    NSR 150SP; Super 4 Spec I; CBR 929; GSX 750; R 1150 GS; Piaggio X8

    Feels like moving a circle....

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    Since the 4 wheel counterpart divides its licence by KG, why not our 2 wheels?

    No doubt a heavier machine means a more powerful machine... Divide the class by KG would be much a better choice than in CC...
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    Originally posted by Tyrian@May 21 2004, 12:33 PM
    Since the 4 wheel counterpart divides its licence by KG, why not our 2 wheels?

    No doubt a heavier machine means a more powerful machine... Divide the class by KG would be much a better choice than in CC...
    you sure??????

    class 2 superbikes are mostly below 180kg,
    and big cruisers weigh in more..

    you sure that this is a good idea???
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    Feels like moving a circle....

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    As mentioned many times within the thread, the 400cc bikes are produced only for the sake of singapore, how many NEW models of this category other than Super 4 exists. All major brands have ceased production, GSX, Kawa even honda, for sport bikes.....
    the 400cc bikes, especially the super4, is not produced for the sake of singapore. it is produced because there is a market for it in japan despite the fact that ppl who ride the super4 are able to ride larger bikes. we import the super4 because there is a market for it here due to our licensing system. what if the market for it dies in japan? honda will cease production, singapore market be damned, and our class 2A license will be a white elephant. whether or not it will happen is irrelevent, the fact is, 400cc bikes are obsolete globally, and that makes our Class 2A license obsolete as well.

    (not to contradict myself, but i cannot imagine a speed starved, hot-blooded male(dun wish to put age in as factor), to jump from a SP, KRR and all to a G6, 636, CBR600 blah blah) think you all get the picture.......
    so exactly how does our current system prevent this from happening anymore than my proposal? i&#39;ve got 2A now, but never ridden anything bigger than my TA150 (except the vtr250 of the school), and i plan to get Class 2 and get a long term Class 2 bike. ppl are already able to do so with the current system.

    2B - up to 200cc
    2A - up to 600cc
    2 - up to you lah...
    my opinion is 600cc to 1000cc is not a major jump, only a minor one. i feel that the biggest jump is below 400cc to 1000cc. hence i feel the need for the cap to be at 400cc and then to open class. a cap at 600cc i feel is not ideal.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    a lot of ppl seem to feel that the current system is adequate. i would like to attempt to explain why i disagree.

    like i mentioned earlier, drivers are able to jump onto high performance sports cars immediately upon passing Class 3. and, i&#39;m sure you agree, cars can do more damage (to others). i think its ridiculous. someone should convince me why the driver is more responsible/skillful than the rider, bearing in mind that one can be both a driver and a rider as well. i feel there should be a cap on Class 3 license based on performance, just like Class 2.

    having said that, i fully agree that one should not be allowed to immediately jump onto a high performance bike like R1 or GSX-1000R, or heavy bikes like harley, immediately after passing. hence the cap in my proposal.

    with my proposal, a person is able to pass the test, wait one year, and then immediately jump onto a high performance bike without any riding experience in that 1 year. or mebbe ride a 150cc sportsbike then jump onto a liter class spotsbike. with the current system, a person can do the the exact same thing, but in 2 years and about &#036;600. if u so insist, then revise my proposal to increae the probation period to 2 years. then it will be exact same thing as now, but saving you money and time for lessons and tests.

    then the only difference between my proposal and current system is circuit lessons and tests on a 600cc bike. (both my proposal and current system includes compulsory cicuit tests on 250/400cc bikes). after compulsory exposure to a 250/400cc bike on road AND circuit, is the circuit lessons/tests necessary again for a 600cc bike?

    i welcome objective counter-arguments to my points above.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

     

     
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    Originally posted by Tyrian@May 21 2004, 12:33 PM
    Since the 4 wheel counterpart divides its licence by KG, why not our 2 wheels?

    No doubt a heavier machine means a more powerful machine... Divide the class by KG would be much a better choice than in CC...
    i disagree.

    unlike cars, the lighter bike is the more powerful machine. the new ZX-10R is only 1kg heavier than the ZX-6R. to put a cap on power for bikes, one must go by cc.

    for 4 wheels, the distinction was made to differientiate between cars and trucks. the closest one can compare this to motorcycles is cruisers and other bikes. but there is not enough of a distinction for cruisers to warrant a license class all of their own.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    knowledge not enough, please pardon me.. (for the Super 4 thing)


    so exactly how does our current system prevent this from happening anymore than my proposal? i&#39;ve got 2A now, but never ridden anything bigger than my TA150 (except the vtr250 of the school), and i plan to get Class 2 and get a long term Class 2 bike. ppl are already able to do so with the current system.
    Think nothing can change the system in this aspect, in certain perception, this is caused by the system itself. This point is more of individual&#39;s choice.


    my opinion is 600cc to 1000cc is not a major jump, only a minor one. i feel that the biggest jump is below 400cc to 1000cc. hence i feel the need for the cap to be at 400cc and then to open class. a cap at 600cc i feel is not ideal.
    By doing this, the bridge can be narrowed... 2B - 2A (increase of 400cc), 2A - 2 (all the way). In certain views, most people might be satisfied with owning a class 2A license, as this will allow them to have more choices of bikes.
    NSR 150SP; Super 4 Spec I; CBR 929; GSX 750; R 1150 GS; Piaggio X8

    Feels like moving a circle....

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    Originally posted by RaJoAna@May 20 2004, 10:48 PM

    250-400cc from say 150 i would say its a big jump for beginners. Not everyone has the same capabilities, at our driving centers u will see more crashes...due to the ablity to control these powerful machines.

    hence i think the current system is gd, althought its a hassel, we find ourselves spending more money and wasting more time waiting to get liecence for our dream bikes.

    our western counterparts are capable of doing so, why not us? what makes us less capable? our physical size?

    better to crash in the school than to crash outside. learn how to control the 250/400cc bike and u will be a better rider.

    and i proposed a change precisely because its a hassle. and any proposal to reduce hassle should not reduce safety from the current system. mine might not increase safety, but i do not believe it will reduce safety either.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    i think the local authority should do something about the bike license classification.
    i&#39;m now with 2a for more than 7 years. have been stalling on my class 2 lessons, only left with evaluation, for quite a while since i really hate to go thru the evaluation by the centres and after that the test. i think if they still want us to go thru the familiarisation of handling bigger bikes is fine but why the test. taking test for class 2 is absurd.
    if i have to explain, you wouldn't understand...
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    knowledge not enough, please pardon me.. (for the Super 4 thing)
    ppl discuss to exchange views and learn more wat, nothing wrong. not say i (or anyone else) all the time correct anyway.

    Think nothing can change the system in this aspect, in certain perception, this is caused by the system itself. This point is more of individual&#39;s choice.
    so then would you agree that my proposal will not change anything with regards to this issue?

    In certain views, most people might be satisfied with owning a class 2A license, as this will allow them to have more choices of bikes.
    wat more choices? besides super 4 and hornet250 and twister250 and a few korean models, wat bikes are available 1st hand today?

    personally, i feel that a 400cc bike is ideal for singapore. its more stable than the 2B bikes, and assuming u use it solely to commute locally, then anything bigger would most of the time just be a waste of petrol/insurance/maintenance. hence the popularity of the super4. and frankly, i would really really like to buy a 1st hand 400cc sportsbike and keep it long term. but there isn any, not here or anywhere. the market has collapsed. to look at new sportsbikes bigger than the 125/150cc, i have to turn immediately to 600cc class.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    I wish that age shouldn&#39;t be a deciding factor~

    [¯*林德金 超級摩托 飆車隊 *¯]
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    If it&#39;s a money strategy. I don&#39;t see the goverment will hesitate.
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    The biggest problem with class 2A is the fact that 201-400cc bikes are extremely limited. And taking class 2A and then class 2 one year later makes very little sense. Let me elaborate...

    No matter what class 2B or 2A bike you ride, you will take some time to adjust to a litre-class bike. Whether you ride a Wave or a RVF, you won&#39;t be able to control a R1 well on the first few days. The jump in power is still very big (2-3 times or more).

    We can see that the "intermediate step" which is class 2A is actually not very useful. One year of riding a 400cc bikes is not going to make handling a 1000cc any easier.

    So why not do away with class 2A? After one year of riding a small bike on probation (capacity can remain or be changed, and I am not focusing on that here), a rider should be trained with a bigger bike (eg 600cc or 750cc) and take the open-class test. I agree that there should still be a handling test in the circuit to show that the rider is capable of handling the bigger bike. I fully agree that it&#39;s better to crash in the circuit than on the road.
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    Originally posted by rhema83@May 21 2004, 11:03 PM
    So why not do away with class 2A? After one year of riding a small bike on probation (capacity can remain or be changed, and I am not focusing on that here), a rider should be trained with a bigger bike (eg 600cc or 750cc) and take the open-class test. I agree that there should still be a handling test in the circuit to show that the rider is capable of handling the bigger bike. I fully agree that it&#39;s better to crash in the circuit than on the road.
    ok then, how bout a revision to my proposal:

    everyone takes Class 2B exactly like it is now. But, thereafter, the rider will have a 1 year probation period whereby he will not be allowed to ride anything larger than 200cc. at the end of this 1 year probation period, he receives an automatic upgrade to Class 2A, without need for circuit or road lessons and tests. also, upon completing the 1 year probation period, he becomes eligible to take lessons and tests, circuit only, for Class 2 exactly like it is now.

    my revised proposal completely does away with the obsolete Class 2A license. there will be no need to spend time and money to obtain the class 2A, and the waiting period to be eligible to obtain open class is reduced to 1 year from the current 2 years. furthermore, it will be compulsory for the rider to gain exposure on large capacity bikes in order to upgrade. i&#39;d like to add that i strongly feel that it should be this way for cars as well.

    one big disadvantage of my revised proposal from my original proposal is that once it is implemented, the centers will immediately find no use whatsoever for their 250/400cc bikes, unless they hold voluntary riding courses similar to their defensive riding courses. also, ppl taking 2A will immediately drop out, since they would have immediately been awarded the 2A license. however, i think that where laws and regulations are concerned, one should not place too much emphasis on the business impact if it does not concern a major industry. also, perhaps implementation period of 1 or 2 years from confirmation would be sufficient to allow the centres and riders to adjust, the same way they did when the age limit was upped from 16 to 18.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    i hate to say this.... in this way... certain amount of &#036;&#036; will not go to the centres... and no way they will agree... unless they also see beyond &#036;&#036; then still got chance...

    wat i meant earlier is that if class 2A is raised to include below 600cc... there will be more choices of bikes for these groups of license holder...
    NSR 150SP; Super 4 Spec I; CBR 929; GSX 750; R 1150 GS; Piaggio X8

    Feels like moving a circle....

     

     
  32. #32
    deganduss
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    After passing 2B & automatic getting larger capacity machine licence after 1 yr is good provided the rider ride during tis 1yr period.
    But if he/she just took the test & keep the licence without riding at all and than decided 2 get a large capacity bike after 1 yr than here can b a bit unsafe (lack riding time)
    I think a test or some kind of assesment is necessary to confirm the rider capability in handling the bike.
    Unless the rider can show that he rode during tis 1 yr period.
    2 cent opinion

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    Originally posted by Sckona@May 22 2004, 02:08 AM
    i hate to say this.... in this way... certain amount of &#036;&#036; will not go to the centres... and no way they will agree... unless they also see beyond &#036;&#036; then still got chance...

    wat i meant earlier is that if class 2A is raised to include below 600cc... there will be more choices of bikes for these groups of license holder...
    like i said, you cannot and should not make a law or regulation that does not concern trade based on how much money other people will make from it. how would you like it if tomorrow a regulation comes up saying to ride bicycle you need license and this law is to allow the jobless to take up job as bicycle trainers? thus i disagree that the driving center should be given a large say on the licensing law based on how much money they can make.

    furthermore, my proposed revision will not make it unprofitable for driving centers. else then how do overseas driving centers cope when they conduct riding tests only once using only one class of motorcycles, which is still one less than my proposal?

    and regarding your 600cc suggestion, its ideal for those with 2A, but what about those who wish to ride a liter class bike? 600cc to 1000cc is not a big jump. you dun need so much adjustment if you&#39;re already experienced on a 600cc bike. the key jump is from under 400cc to above 600cc. this is where the cap should be.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

  34. #34
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    Originally posted by deganduss@May 22 2004, 10:06 AM
    After passing 2B & automatic getting larger capacity machine licence after 1 yr is good provided the rider ride during tis 1yr period.
    But if he/she just took the test & keep the licence without riding at all and than decided 2 get a large capacity bike after 1 yr than here can b a bit unsafe (lack riding time)
    I think a test or some kind of assesment is necessary to confirm the rider capability in handling the bike.
    Unless the rider can show that he rode during tis 1 yr period.
    2 cent opinion
    you have a valid point and i tot of it as well BUT i believe this point is not relevant to my proposal because the current system already has this flaw. with the current system, you are able to jump onto a large bike without any prior road riding experience after 2 years of first taking 2B, provided you pass the Class 2 test. with my second proposal (the one with the Class 2 test), i am only reducing this time to 1 year, and you still need to take and pass the Class 2 test. so, with regards to the issue you brought up, what difference does my proposal make to this flaw from the current system in place?

    furthermore, i think there is no real way of correcting this flaw. how can you ensure that the person has been riding? make it law that to take the next test he must have a bike ownership under his name for a year? not fair. my TA150 is under my father&#39;s name, meaning i did ride for a year but do not own the bike. make sure that he at least has an insurance such as 2nd rider if he does not own a bike? does not solve anything, becoz a rider can just &#39;season parking&#39; his name on a friend&#39;s or family&#39;s bike for a year or two without riding. hence there is no real way of solving this flaw, current system or proposal.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

  35. #35
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    Originally posted by MrLau@May 22 2004, 11:29 AM
    If someone can pass the test, mean he can handle the bike.

    The current system work fine, there is no need to change.
    how many tests do i have to take before i am considered able to handle a bike?

    i say, 1 test sufficient, maximum 2, no need for 3.

    why must i spend &#036;300 and 3 months anually for 2 years, going around a circuit and being penalised for not checking blind spot and changing lane abruptly instead of my handling capability, before i am allowed on a larger bike?

    i say, its all too much of a hassle and money, and that is reason enough to consider changing, bearing in mind one should not do so at the expense of safety.

    why are riders not allowed to get on large bikes immediately but drivers are allowed to do so?

    i say, riders should be considered just as capable as drivers.

    why are our western counterparts considered capable of adopting my proposed revision but singaporeans are incapable of doing so?

    i say, we are just as capable.

    why keep our class 2a category when globally the 250/400cc class of bikes has gone obsolete? what can i do with a class 2a license today?

    i say, the class 2a tag on my license card is useless, i only have a handful of choices for brand new bikes.

    dont tell me no need to change. tell me why my reasons for change are not valid.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    Originally posted by mechwira@May 22 2004, 12:46 PM
    how many tests do i have to take before i am considered able to handle a bike?

    i say, 1 test sufficient, maximum 2, no need for 3.

    why must i spend &#036;300 and 3 months anually for 2 years, going around a circuit and being penalised for not checking blind spot and changing lane abruptly instead of my handling capability, before i am allowed on a larger bike?

    i say, its all too much of a hassle and money, and that is reason enough to consider changing, bearing in mind one should not do so at the expense of safety.

    why are riders not allowed to get on large bikes immediately but drivers are allowed to do so?

    i say, riders should be considered just as capable as drivers.

    why are our western counterparts considered capable of adopting my proposed revision but singaporeans are incapable of doing so?

    i say, we are just as capable.

    why keep our class 2a category when globally the 250/400cc class of bikes has gone obsolete? what can i do with a class 2a license today?

    i say, the class 2a tag on my license card is useless, i only have a handful of choices for brand new bikes.

    dont tell me no need to change. tell me why my reasons for change are not valid.
    Well.... I couldn&#39;t agree more than your said obsolete 250cc and 400cc production which left us (consumer) non-sport bikes and other options to choose. Too constrain.

    Personally, 400cc and 600cc have big major differences in it&#39;s design and bhp to handle for a class 2A holder.

    However, questioning on how they are going to implement a precaution methods to allowing bypassing will be a challenge should this is approved.

    It does affects Centre and Goverment financially but utimately, we need to excel.
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    Originally posted by hohosaint@May 22 2004, 12:56 PM
    Well.... I couldn&#39;t agree more than your said obsolete 250cc and 400cc production which left us (consumer) non-sport bikes and other options to choose. Too constrain.

    Personally, 400cc and 600cc have big major differences in it&#39;s design and bhp to handle for a class 2A holder.

    However, questioning on how they are going to implement a precaution methods to allowing bypassing will be a challenge should this is approved.

    It does affects Centre and Goverment financially but utimately, we need to excel.
    i agree with your point regarding 400cc and 600cc, which is why i say if there must be a cap on capacity, then it should be placed on 400cc and not 600cc.

    regarding the bypass precaution you mentioned, as i said, this flaw already exists in the current system, so why make such a big issue of it in considering my proposal? if its an important issue (which it probably is), then it should be discussed in the context of the current system, and not in considering my proposal.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    The point is, class 2A is outdated. We need an updated system. So we do away with that class and riders are trained on a 600cc or above bike once they finish their probation year on a 200cc (or maybe 400cc). They will still be tested for handling and safety according to current class 2 standards, so there is no compromise on safety and readiness to handle a large capacity bike.

    If I&#39;m not straightforward enough, the point is to DO AWAY WITH 2A, or MERGE 2B and 2A to 400cc, ie train fresh riders with a bigger bike. You can still start out by letting them bang tyres on a 200cc training bike, but once they have the basic handling skills, give them the 400cc to train with.

    Right now SSDC gives the riders CB125T to bang tyres and gain basic skills, and then a newer and more powerful bike for the rest of the courses.
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    Originally posted by mechwira@May 22 2004, 01:16 PM
    i agree with your point regarding 400cc and 600cc, which is why i say if there must be a cap on capacity, then it should be placed on 400cc and not 600cc.

    regarding the bypass precaution you mentioned, as i said, this flaw already exists in the current system, so why make such a big issue of it in considering my proposal? if its an important issue (which it probably is), then it should be discussed in the context of the current system, and not in considering my proposal.
    Without any further exchanging of opinions and raise up. Are you in a process of submitting this proposal or system to the appropriate authority?
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    Originally posted by MrLau@May 22 2004, 01:06 PM
    This statement has already prove that you are not ready.
    You just failed to meet the minimum requirement to ride safely on the road. It is no diff in 2B, 2A or 2 or 3.

    Riding on the public road is not just "release clutch and maintain balance", it is about safety for you and other road users.

    Take the test, prove to the tester you are qualified.
    have i not already been tested on this during my 2b? when u say i need to experience larger bike before being allowed, is the concern not on my handling capability, ie, the obstacle courses? but this is just a minor point. if u insist it is a major point, then why not make it compulsory for motorcyle license holders to go for retest every, say 3 years, to ensure they have not lost their safety riding habits? so how many times do i have to keep proving myself? and if its no diff in 2b, 2a or 2, then why keep retesting? isn that the whole point of my argument? that there is not much of a difference to keep retesting and making us spend money and time?

    and what about my other arguments?

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    mechwira
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    Originally posted by rhema83@May 22 2004, 01:16 PM
    The point is, class 2A is outdated. We need an updated system. So we do away with that class and riders are trained on a 600cc or above bike once they finish their probation year on a 200cc (or maybe 400cc). They will still be tested for handling and safety according to current class 2 standards, so there is no compromise on safety and readiness to handle a large capacity bike.

    If I&#39;m not straightforward enough, the point is to DO AWAY WITH 2A, or MERGE 2B and 2A to 400cc, ie train fresh riders with a bigger bike. You can still start out by letting them bang tyres on a 200cc training bike, but once they have the basic handling skills, give them the 400cc to train with.

    Right now SSDC gives the riders CB125T to bang tyres and gain basic skills, and then a newer and more powerful bike for the rest of the courses.
    i fully agree. i am willing to concede that in my original proposal, an automatic upgrade to open class without any need for retest may be flawed. but 2A is obsolete and uneccessary.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

     

     
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    Originally posted by hohosaint@May 22 2004, 01:22 PM
    Without any further exchanging of opinions and raise up. Are you in a process of submitting this proposal or system to the appropriate authority?
    i just threw this in as a discussion topic. i wouldn mind writing in, if somebody would tell me who to write to. i&#39;m not sure traffic police is a good destination, they&#39;re enforcers not lawmakers. if its not within their power to make changes, they&#39;re just gonna mail back saying why cannot, and i hear enough of that in this forum.

    and i thought moderators say they might decide to air this particular forum upwards?

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

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    Originally posted by mechwira@May 22 2004, 01:30 PM
    i just threw this in as a discussion topic. i wouldn mind writing in, if somebody would tell me who to write to. i&#39;m not sure traffic police is a good destination, they&#39;re enforcers not lawmakers. if its not within their power to make changes, they&#39;re just gonna mail back saying why cannot, and i hear enough of that in this forum.

    and i thought moderators say they might decide to air this particular forum upwards?
    errr.... Hmmm.... Could somebody be so kind to give some pointers on how to submit this proposal or system to the correct and appropriate authority? I suppose the effect&#39;s of this will be quite workable, nevertheless.

    As mentioned of the phased out of 250cc and 400cc which left class 2A holders meaningless in getting and, should we say donating money to centre whilst no exact bike can be bought after acomplishing the course?.
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    having ridden for over a decade, i must say that a higher limit on the 2A should iron things out.

    perhaps for class 2A, allowance is up to 600cc.

    then keep class 2 for open cat.

    however, the upgrading test should not be the same becos that will be STOOOPID.

    the upgrading test should exclude basic manouvers and include advance manouvers.

    whats the point in taking the same tests on a bigger bike??
    some 1000cc are as small as 400cc&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

    emphasis should be on the right skills and the social responsibilities of riding

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    Originally posted by mechwira@May 20 2004, 05:35 PM
    frankly, i just added it to anticipate the cunter-argument about riders under 21 being the most prone to serous and fatal accidents. to be honest, i agree with the counter-argument, but i feel the focus is the age/maturity, not the capacity. but then again, ppl &#39;upstairs&#39; might not so readily understand or agree, hence my pre-emptive strike.
    yes, does under 21 most vulnerable, but age is not equals to maturity~

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    Originally posted by EXC&#045;Alan4@May 20 2004, 11:30 PM
    lets hope 2C will come out hahaha

    2C - veh not exceeding 125cc
    2B - veh not exceeding 250cc
    2A - veh not exceeding 600cc
    2 - veh exceeding 600cc
    That&#39;s a good one. It sounds better than auto-upgrade.
    Guess which word had this meaning.

    1. Any code or set of principles containing different provisions for one group of people than for another, esp. an unwritten code of sexual behavior permitting men more freedom than women.

    2. A set of principles permitting greater opportunity or liberty to one than to another, especially the granting of greater sexual freedom to men than to women.

    3. A set of principles establishing different provisions for one group than another; also, specifically, allowing men more sexual freedom than women.

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    Originally posted by Throttle@May 22 2004, 07:58 PM
    having ridden for over a decade, i must say that a higher limit on the 2A should iron things out.

    perhaps for class 2A, allowance is up to 600cc.

    then keep class 2 for open cat.

    however, the upgrading test should not be the same becos that will be STOOOPID.

    the upgrading test should exclude basic manouvers and include advance manouvers.

    whats the point in taking the same tests on a bigger bike??
    some 1000cc are as small as 400cc&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

    emphasis should be on the right skills and the social responsibilities of riding
    Can&#39;t agree more. "Emphasis should be on the right skills and the social responsibilities of riding." Especially the responsibilities. If riders, particularly young and hot-blooded ones, can be more responsible when they are on the road, I am sure the number of accidents and fatalities involving motorcycles can be reduced greatly.

    On the part on handling the physical size of bigger bikes, I totally agree. A modern 600cc or even litre-class sports bike is not much heavier or bigger than a 400cc (Once I parked my NSR150SP side by side with a CBR600F-Sport and frankly they looked very similar in size).

    However, I can&#39;t think of what "advance manouvers" that should, or can, be tested in the circuit...
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    So let me try to summarise...

    1) We need to do away with Class 2A because...
    a) There are too few bikes between 201cc and 400cc to choose from.
    b) The course, meant to be an intermediate step towards open class, does not help a rider adjust from a small to big bike significantly.

    2) We suggest a revision to the system. We can...
    a) Merge Classes 2B and 2A, and train new learners with a 400cc bike.
    b) Merge Classes 2A and 2, and train riders who finished probation with an open-class bike.

    3) We emphasize that safety should not be compromised in any scenario.

    Please correct any mistakes I made...
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    Originally posted by rhema83@May 23 2004, 01:21 AM
    So let me try to summarise...

    1) We need to do away with Class 2A because...
    a) There are too few bikes between 201cc and 400cc to choose from.
    b) The course, meant to be an intermediate step towards open class, does not help a rider adjust from a small to big bike significantly.

    2) We suggest a revision to the system. We can...
    a) Merge Classes 2B and 2A, and train new learners with a 400cc bike.
    b) Merge Classes 2A and 2, and train riders who finished probation with an open-class bike.

    3) We emphasize that safety should not be compromised in any scenario.

    Please correct any mistakes I made...
    i&#39;d like to add to your part 1:

    1) We need to do away with Class 2A because...

    a) There are too few bikes between 201cc and 400cc to choose from.

    b) The course, meant to be an intermediate step towards open class, does not help a rider adjust from a small to big bike significantly.

    c) It will save motorcyclists 1 year and the cost of 1 round of tests and lessons in getting Class 2.

    d) Our western counterparts, and some parts of asia especially Japan, have all adopted such a system, and we should consider ourselves equally capable in terms of handling ability.

    e) Our Class 3 licensing system is not tiered like our Class 2 system, and if a driver is considered capable of handling a high performance car immediately upon passing, then riders should be treated with the same respect.

    It's true: it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow. Admittedly, though... It is MOST fun to ride a fast bike fast!

  50. #50
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    On a sidenote, this plan actually makes economic sense.

    Firstly, driving centres should not be totally profit-oriented and the loss caused by one less motorcycle class should not cause an outcry.

    Secondly, motorcycle businesses will benefit. Instead of importing Japanese domestic 400cc bikes and reselling older 400cc bikes, which all have very limited support, agents will now have a bigger market for the more profitable and widely-supported open class. Currently the open class market is not very big because not everyone will go all the way to take all the 3 classes of motorcycle license.

    Lastly, consumers will benefit. As the agents bring in a larger selection of open-class bikes to cater to the larger market, consumers now have a wider range to choose from. The price will also reduce as trade volume increases. Also, wider support for open class bikes also mean that consumers will have less headaches searching for replacement parts like they do now for their outdated 400cc bikes. And newer and more reliable bikes also mean a higher level of safety.
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