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Thread: All about Corners, Counter steer, counter measures

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    Riding Skills Series: Countermeasures

    By Jason Black
    Photography: Dean Groover



    1. Whether you realize it or not, countersteering is as necessary and vital to your riding as using the brakes. If you're not familiar with countersteering, it's a term used to describe the physical action of steering the bar or clip-ons momentarily in the opposite (yes, opposite) direction of the turn in order to initiate a corner.

    The actual physics of countersteering are complicated, and while many people think it requires only a simple explanation, panels of physicists have debated exactly why angular momentum, torques and vectors affect your motorcycle. As riders, we don't need to know the physics, but it is important to have an understanding of how our motorcycle works. We're not going to tell you why, but here is a quick how.




    2. Most new riders who have not taken a Motorcycle Safety Course are under the impression that in order to arc through a corner on a motorcycle, the rider must lean and turn the front wheel in the direction of the corner.

    In fact, the opposite is true. At speeds greater than 15-20 mph, the rider must initiate a turn by first turning the front wheel toward the outside of the corner (i.e., push on the left bar to go left, push on the right bar to go right). This is a momentary action that rolls the motorcycle off its axis, leaning it in the direction of the bar/clip-on that is pushed. As the bike reaches the desired lean angle, the tire falls into the arc of the turn.

    The arrows in the photo above illustrate, from the rider's point of view, the motion needed to initiate a corner. Push forward on the left bar to go left; the opposite to go right.




    3. Here's an exercise to practice countersteering. Find an empty stretch of straight road. While riding at steady throttle at a slow speed (35-45 mph), pick a spot on the road ahead and use it as an imaginary obstacle-a point where you'll want to swerve.

    As you approach your target, choose the direction you want to maneuver the bike. For the first pass, begin your turn well back from the point you want to avoid and make sure you don't target fixate. Apply slight pressure on the desired clip-on to arc the bike around the "obstacle," then apply pressure on the opposite side to swing back onto your original line. The motion involved in pushing/pulling the clip-ons should be a controlled movement; jerky actions will upset the chassis. As you become more comfortable, advance your initial turn closer to the target. This will require a more forceful action at the clip-ons, but remember to keep your motions smooth. With practice, you can quickly and accurately place the bike using exact countersteering inputs.




    4. Remember: At low speeds (less than 15 mph) countersteering doesn't have any effect on turning the motorcycle, but as speeds rise the force of the input required increases. It takes less effort to steer a motorcycle traveling at 60 mph than it does to steer at 100 mph.

    Countersteering can be used in two ways: subconsciously or consciously. Those who use it subconsciously perform the action without knowing it, and therefore have less of an understanding of how their motorcycle works. Those who consciously use countersteering-both racers and street riders alike-are able to place their motorcycles precisely where they want.

    Whether you are enjoying your favorite road or find yourself in the middle of an emergency situation, the ability to knowingly countersteer your bike and place it where desired gives you greater control in any situation that arises.

    This article was originally published in the December '99 issue of Sport Rider.









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    Riding Skills Series: Off-Camber Corners

    By Evans Brasfield
    Photography: Dean Groover




    1. The term "off-camber" often strikes fear in the hearts of neophyte riders. They've heard horror stories about innocent riders who enter seemingly innocuous corners only to discover the dreaded negative camber. (For folks who are confused, this is the opposite of a banked turn.) Although these poor souls usually make it through the corner, they exit with harrowing tales of near-death experiences. If you're correctly applying the SIPDE process (scan, identify, predict, decide and execute) the reality of off-camber corners is they're no different from other corners when approached properly. So, your first step in riding off-camber corners is to look ahead to see what's out there (as modeled by our intrepid rider above). If you're not riding your front wheel, it's harder to be surprised by changes in a corner. (If you don't remember SIPDE, take a MSF course.)




    2. Why do so many people find off-camber corners unnerving? The primary concern is the lessened traction when the road tilts away. For example, even before you initiate a turn, your tires will already be off their center. In a cambered (or banked) turn, the weight of the bike presses your tires into the road, increasing traction. However, the laws of physics work against you when the road goes off-camber. The forces that typically push you toward the outside of a turn take away from your available traction. Also, you will need to lean the bike more-relative to the surface of the road-to make it through the turn. Therefore, traction and ground clearance issues require off-camber corners to be taken at lower speeds than flat ones. If not, you could run out of ground clearance.




    3. Be sure to get all of your braking done early while you're still straight up and down. Trail braking into an off-camber corner is a risky proposition. Get a little greedy and the front end will tuck. (Remember, your tires are more on edge than in a typical corner and have a smaller footprint to hold you to the road.) Your slowest point should be as you enter the turn. Turn the bike late and quickly (i.e. late apex the corner) to minimize your time at maximum lean. Roll-on the throttle as early as possible to unload the fork and settle the suspension. Smoothness is paramount here. Your bike will naturally want to go downhill toward the outside of the turn as it interacts with the curvature of the road, and you will need to apply pressure to the inside grip throughout the turn.




    4. Since you late apexed the turn, you will be closer to the inside of the turn later in the corner, but your line will still carry you wide at the exit, as in a traditional line. Be cautious about getting hard on the throttle until you're sure the bike is straight up and down. Like braking, traction for acceleration is limited in an off-camber turn. If you practice these maneuvers several times on a negative-camber corner, you will become familiar with the technique and will be less likely to panic when you encounter an unexpected off-camber turn out on the road. Still, the best way to avoid panic is to scan ahead and avoid midcorner surprises. So, go out, practice and ignore those riders who bemoan the terrors of off-camber corners



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    Riding Skills Series: As the Turn Tightens
    By Jason Black
    Photography: Wes Allison




    1. Decreasing-radius corners can get tricky for the simple reason that if you approach the corner as if it were a constant radius, you won't have anything in reserve when the corner tightens up. The trickiness is compounded when the decreasing-radius corner is also blind, as they often are.

    A good rule to go by to ensure your safety margin is this: Never go into a corner at a speed without a "reserve" that allows you to correct for something unexpected mid-corner, whether it be debris in the road, negative camber or a decreasing turn radius.

    The rider in the first photo is approaching this decreasing-radius corner on the outside edge of his lane, since doing so provides a better look through the oncoming corner and a better angle of attack should it tighten up. Regardless of the corner, make sure you don't get in too hot.




    2. We always say to look through the turn and down the road, and this case is no exception. If you're on an unfamiliar road, then looking well through the corner will alert you to the decreasing radius before it's too late to react. Avoid using an early apex since you'll then be drifting to the outside of the pavement just as the radius starts to decrease. Not an ideal situation. Release the brakes before you turn the motorcycle, then crack the throttle to unload the front end as soon as possible. You'd be amazed at what a difference early throttle application makes in the willingness of the bike to arc through the corner. In this photo, the rider is off the brakes and starting his throttle input, even though he is only a third of the way through the corner.




    3. The rear brake can be used to slow the bike slightly and tighten the cornering radius of the motorcycle, but first get used to the sensitivity of the rear brake so as not to lock it up. Don't slam the throttle shut in the middle of a corner as overloading the front end could cause it to wash out. As the corner tightens, simply dial in more lean angle, which shouldn't be a problem since you left some in reserve, right?




    4. A large number of crashes occur when riders panic and stand the bike up, when in fact a corner can usually be taken much quicker than most people think. At the late apex of a decreasing-radius corner, you'll be nearing the inside edge of your lane, so let the bike drift out naturally to the middle of your lane and drive it out of the corner, making sure to stay well clear of the center line of the road.

    On a road you don't know, it's important to ride with reserve. If you enter a corner at full lean angle and then suddenly realize it's beginning to tighten up, it'll be too late to correct. Get into each corner knowing that no matter how tight it gets, you'll be able to compensate accordingly. And make it to the next corner to do it all again. SR
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    Riding Skills Series: Cornering Through a Crisis

    By Jason Black
    Photography: Wes Allison




    1. This is the classic scenario: You're clipping along at a good pace, flicking through corners in a controlled rhythm, when around a blind bend you see water, dirt or some other debris directly in your path. What to do? Here, the rider has spotted the debris but is already committed to the cornering line, carrying a respectable amount of lean angle. This rider was able to spot the debris because he was looking well through the turn. Make sure you don't "ride the front wheel," which will limit your field of vision and therefore lessen the amount of time you have to react to certain situations. If it's water or dirt, it's not a good idea to cross it with very much lean angle. Once you've spotted the debris-but before you reach it-increase your lean angle to tighten your cornering line. This will give you more room to work later in the corner.




    2. Just before you cross the debris, stand the bike straight up (or as close to it as possible). If necessary get on the brakes, but make sure to get your braking done early and release them before you get to the slick stuff.




    3. Try to avoid braking through the problem area at all costs; it's immeasurably safer to roll through with the throttle slightly open than it is to even lightly apply the brakes.




    4. Once past the offending slag, lean the bike back into the corner to avoid exiting your lane, which would either take you into oncoming traffic or off the road. It's a good idea to practice this procedure in an imaginary crisis when there is nothing at stake. Just remember: When the real thing happens, don't panic. Firm, thoughtful inputs will have you on your way without so much as a rise in heart rate.

    This story was originally published in the June 1995 issue of Sport Rider.
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    Riding Skills Series: A Little Overcooked

    By Kent Kunitsugu
    Photography: Fran Kuhn



    1. Many times we have stressed the importance of looking ahead into a corner so that you can formulate a riding plan well in advance. Another benefit of looking where you want to go is that it can help save you when things get a little out of control; like when you're caught unaware in a corner going a little too fast. Obviously, these steps won't do you much good if you totally screw up and blast into a 30-mph corner at well over 100 mph, but if you find yourself running into a turn that tightens up unexpectedly, these points can help keep you rubber-side-down during a situation that probably qualifies as the number one trap for novice riders.




    2. Decreasing-radius corners (turns that tighten up toward the exit) can be very deceiving. Even if you're looking far enough ahead, the tighter section of the corner can catch you off guard. It begins innocently enough: You're already well into a turn when you notice it starting to tighten up. As you suddenly realize you might be running out of road, confusion can result as your self-preservation instincts start to cause a bit of panic. It's at this point where the big problems start; you're so worried about running off the corner that you "target fixate" on the outside, which results in...




    3. ...your body tensing up, with an immediate urge to get on the brakes, resulting in a locked-up rear wheel. You instinctively start picking the bike upright since you're applying the brakes, and you're busy staring at the outside of the turn. You end up going where you look, which causes you to skid off into the dirt. The root cause of this mishap? You should have been focusing on the turn ahead, not on the outside of the turn.

    It's hard to trust in your bike's capabilities in situations like this, but riding skill comes from the confidence of knowing your bike's proficieny as well as your own. Focusing your attention on the correct area allows you to better handle panic situations like this. If you don't have confidence in attaining max lean with your bike, too much of your attention will be spent on controlling the bike, rather than steering it in the direction you want to go.




    4. When you realize the turn is tightening up, as difficult as it sounds, ignore the outside of the turn; continue to look ahead, roll off the throttle gently, and simply feed in more lean angle. Keep off the rear brake and stay focused on your intended path. Most of today's machines can carry more lean angle than you think, and if you keep your focus on where you want to go, as long as your tires and suspension are in good condition, the bike will get you there.

    It's important to be smooth on the controls when you're getting toward maximum lean, since the tire's footprint is pretty small at that point. Dragging fixed hard parts is obviously not good; look at your bike from the rear to see which parts will touch down first when you get to max lean. If you lack the confidence to lean your bike over, practice-preferably at a track day or riding school.
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    to be continue...
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    fantastic advice!



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    Good read!

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    hm...
    gd read
    if got video lagi better
    =[ Honda CBR150R ]=
    ....=[ R E P S O L ]=
    ....

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    #4 and #5 is especially useful.
    Sometimes going into a corner, you'll get shocked by the hazards on the road. Puddle of water, oil spill, sand, even clump of leaves can turn a good day into a bad one.
    #5 is especially true. Gotta act like an ostrich. when in danger, dun stare at the danger. I'm still learning to avoid target fixation....

     

     
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    Originally posted by d0n^@Nov 4 2004, 09:40 AM
    hm...
    gd read
    if got video lagi better
    A Short Video Clip.
    Even the smallest spark can start a massive forest fire...

    Quotable Quotes: If you ride a motorcycle often, you will be killed riding it. That much is as sure as night follows day. Your responsibility is to be vigilant and careful as to continue to push that eventuality so far forward that you die of old age first

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    Riding Skills Series: Blind Turns

    By Andrew Trevitt
    Photography: Dean Groover




    1 There's always a bit of trepidation when approaching a blind turn, but taking a slightly different line than usual will get you through with minimal fuss. The key is to enter the turn a bit slower and wider than normal for the radius it appears to be. This allows you the longest line of sight around the obstruction. The rider in this photo is entering a blind left-hander and is staying to the right side of the lane while looking as far ahead as possible. A general rule of thumb is to keep your speed slow enough that you can stop safely in the distance you can see ahead.




    2 It's important to remember to keep your speed down on the entrance, as you may have to tighten your line if it turns out to be a decreasing-radius corner. Once you can see the exit of the turn, begin cutting into the apex. Because your entrance speed is a bit slow, it's possible to get on the gas almost right away, which will help settle the bike. It's doubtful a turn will arc more than 180 degrees. So once you've passed a point where you're able to see far enough ahead to ensure the turn isn't going to tighten up unexpectedly, it would be safe to start to apex without seeing the exit.




    3 When a vehicle comes darting out from behind an obstacle, it can be startling and you'll be compelled to follow it with your eyes-especially if it's another bike. Avoid watching it, as you're sure to run wide. Pay attention to the road, looking as far ahead as possible. Similarly, if you suddenly come across something in the road, decide on an avoidance path and don't stare at the debris. It's easy to target fixate on something that appears suddenly, and it will require practice to train your eyes to stay focused on where you want to go.




    4 The restraint shown on the entrance of the turn will pay off when you can straighten up, get on the gas and accelerate out, as opposed to running wide and backing off the throttle if you enter fast and apex early. Seeing more of the turn on the entrance will give you extra confidence in steering the bike, and decrease the chance of something surprising you in midturn. A slower entrance and late apex allows better control, in case the turn tightens up or there's debris in the road, and keeps you safely in your own lane at the exit of the turn.







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    Riding Skills Series: Conquering Off-Camber Corners

    By Jason Black
    Photography: Wes Allison




    1. Off-camber corners can catch a snoozing rider off-guard in an instant. The ideal situation is to spot the corner in question well in advance and be ready for it; the element of surprise can be a dangerous one.

    As always, look through the corner, making sure not to "ride the front wheel," as dirttrackers put it. Here the rider has spotted the offending corner and has already set his entrance speed. Get all your braking done in a straight line. Do not trail brake (braking while entering the corner), because the potential to lose the front end is very high since the tires are already off the center of the tread even when the bike is straight up and down. Your slowest point should be at the corner's entrance before your turn-in.




    2 Make sure you set up wide for the corner, but not so wide that you're out in the dirt. If you turn too early and then realize you've used up your lean angle midway through the turn, the only way to correct for it would be to head toward the outside of the corner-right off the road. Turning the motorcycle late and quickly minimizes the time spent at full lean.

    It's important to remember that when in an off-camber corner, your tires are further on the edge of the tread than in a flat or cambered corner, limiting the traction available.




    3. The next step is to get on the throttle as early as possible. Crack the throttle off-idle to unload the front end, settling the suspension. The motorcycle may not want to steer easily through the corner and may need constant pressure on the inside bar to keep a constant arc.




    4. Your lane position will be toward the inside third of the lane at the exit if everything's done correctly. Ease the power on smoothly so as not to lose traction at the rear.

    If you're ready for an off-camber corner and learn these steps, your next encounter will be smooth and assured. Just remember, off-camber corners aren't reason to panic; get the bike slowed, turn it late and quick, get on the throttle early and be smooth..

    This story was originally published in the June 1995 issue of Sport Rider.




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    Riding Skills Series: Body Steering

    By Evans Brasfield
    Photography: Dean Groover





    1. Over the years, there has been much ado about the importance of countersteering. Simply put, countersteering-or turning a bike's handlebar in the opposite direction of your desired turn-is the best way to control your motorcycle. Those riders who doubt the importance of countersteering owe it to themselves and their loved ones to sign up for an MSF Basic RiderCourse or Experienced RiderCourse as soon as possible (800/446-9227; www.mic.org or www.msf-usa.org). Still, a small but vocal group of seasoned riders insist that-in the efforts to impress upon novice riders the importance of countersteering-an effective, advanced method of turning a motorcycle has been neglected. Body steering utilizes a rider's feet and legs to augment handlebar input for quick, controlled turns.




    2. Before experimenting with body steering, a rider needs to be proficient at countersteering. Also, bad habits-such as riding with locked elbows or improper body positioning (see RSS, June '00)-can dull or even negate the effects of body steering. Begin by riding a section of road that you are familiar with at a moderate pace. With the balls of your feet, evenly place weight on the bike's pegs. Focus on your riding position, making sure to support your torso with your stomach muscles while keeping your elbows bent and your arms relaxed. Next, choose a corner to try this body steering technique. At the turn-in point, countersteer while pressing down on the inside peg and pulling your outside knee in and down toward the inside of the turn. Try varying the force of the foot/knee input while body steering into a variety of corners to learn the proper combination of countersteering and body steering.




    3. Although body steering is more effective at initiating a turn in some types of corners than in others, the technique is particularly well suited for midcorner line corrections or bending your bike into a decreasing radius turn as shown above. By using the lower extremities instead of your arms to alter your bike's line while leaned over, your hands are free to modulate the throttle. Also, by using your legs to steer the bike, your arms stay relaxed allowing the bars to move as your bike tracks over pavement irregularities. Some riders report that they not only press toward the inside of a turn with their outside knee, but also, while keeping their toes on the peg, hook their outside heel against the frame or bodywork to assist in pulling their bikes into a turn.




    4. Body steering isn't just useful for turning a bike into a corner. This technique can be reversed by applying weight on the outside peg to widen the line midcorner. At the exit of a turn, body steering can help stand a bike up when used in conjunction with countersteering, putting the meat of the tire to the ground, while your hands are busy rolling on the throttle or shifting. Riders who want to study this riding technique in more detail should attend Jason Pridmore's Star School (805/658-6333; www.starmotorcycle.com) to explore the limits of body steering in a controlled environment. When used properly, body steering and countersteering will help you turn your bike smoothly and quickly in a variety of cornering situations.

    This article was originally published in the August 2000 issue of Sport Rider.





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    Riding Skills Series: Avoiding Obstacles in a Turn

    By Evans Brasfield
    Photography: Dean Groover





    1. We always stress that the street is not a racetrack and you should hold a little in reserve while riding. Nowhere is this more important than when entering a blind turn. Good street riding practice recommends that you scan three to five seconds ahead while riding. Cornering, however, reduces your scanning distance. Rounding blind corners such as those with bushes or rock faces obscuring your view, reduces it dramatically. Although these situations are best handled by lowering your entry speed, entering a corner with a plan can help you overcome surprises that may lurk ahead. Most experienced riders have stories of strange things they have encountered in the middle of the road. It's probably only a matter of time until the same happens to you.




    2. When you encounter an obstacle midcorner, you have little time to react. Immediately determine on which side of the object you plan to pass. Then, to prevent target fixation, focus your attention on your desired path of travel. If the obstruction is dirt or gravel, selecting a car's outside tire track will usually provide the cleanest line through the corner. Often your avoidance maneuver will require only a slight change of line either inside or outside of the obstacle. However, if your speed is high enough that adjusting your line in this manner will send you into the oncoming lane or off the road, you will need to brake, too. Since traction for braking is limited while cornering, you need to stand the bike up prior to applying the brakes.




    3. To achieve maximum application of the brakes while swerving, steering inputs must be separated from braking or you risk losing traction. The swerving and braking maneuver happens so quickly that, while the bike may be upright when you apply the brakes, your body will still be off the center of the bike. Don't worry. Let the bike move underneath you. Don't grab the brakes; apply the brakes firmly while recognizing your bike is probably not completely upright and traction will still be limited. If your front brake locks and starts to skid, immediately release then reapply the brake. Keep your eyes focused on your intended path of travel. Looking at an obstacle or off the road will only help you become intimately acquainted with them.




    4. As soon as you have slowed your bike enough to complete the turn, release the brakes and direct the bike back toward your original path of travel. Since this maneuver takes less than a second from beginning to end, practice is essential. Find a lightly traveled road with a right hand turn (to give yourself some runoff if you make a mistake) with good visibility throughout the entire turn. Using chalk or tape, mark the section of the road you want to swerve around. Starting at low speeds, swerve around an imaginary object while cornering. Once you are comfortable, gradually increase your speed until you reach the point where you need to insert braking into the swerve. You'll be glad you took the time should you ever encounter a child's stuffed animal in the middle of your line.

    This story originally appeared in the December 2000 issue of Sport Rider.
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    Riding Skills Series: Body Positioning

    Increased confidence and control in a variety of situations

    By Andrew Trevitt
    Photography: Dean Groover





    You've seen the extreme race shots of riders hanging off their machines like monkeys, but while it helps out cornering on the racetrack, it's not necessarily the optimum body position for street riding. A more centered riding stance may not look all that cool, but it will give you increased confidence and control in a variety of situations. For most cornering, you should be centered on the seat, and leaning with your bike so that your head is either on or just to the inside of the centerline. Tilting your head to match the horizon stops your brain from getting confused by mixed visual and balance signals. If your controls don't fit correctly, adjust them to match; never adjust your style to fit.




    Keeping your inside elbow locked, and using the weight of your upper body on that arm to countersteer is a common lazy habit. This prevents you from making small steering corrections, and limits your control of the motorcycle; in addition, any bump in the road will unsettle your upper body, and that movement will transmit directly down your locked arm and into the bar-unintentionally steering your bike. It's important to remember that the handlebar is more for steering your machine rather than for holding onto it. Experiment with holding your body in position using your stomach muscles and pressing your outside knee against the tank, while keeping your elbows bent with as much weight off the bars as possible.




    Using the centered riding stance puts your outside knee in the correct position and will help to distribute your weight properly. If your bike has low clip-ons, it will require substantial knee pressure to unweight them; try variations until you find something comfortable. With as little weight on your arms as possible, you'll find it much easier to make small steering corrections, and bumps will unsettle your bike less as your weight has a reduced effect on steering. Also, experiment with foot position to find what works for you; it's usually best to keep your toes on the footpegs, especially the inner foot to avoid dragging. If you like to use the rear brake (RSS, April '00), keep your foot as far back and tucked in as possible.




    There are instances where some hanging off helps with maneuverability or traction. For instance, on wet or slippery surfaces, moving your body to the inside of the turn will allow you to keep your bike more upright to take maximum advantage of the available traction. And during quick countersteering swerves, when you're avoiding an obstacle on the road, keeping your body upright during the entire sequence lessens the amount of mass you have to throw from side-to-side, and lets you push against your bike using your own inertia. Body position has a significant effect on your bike's handling, and it's well worth trying different techniques to find something that gives you more confidence as well as comfortableness.

    This article was originally published in the June 2000 issue of Sport Rider.
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    continue throught Riding Skills Series: Part II
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    Thanks w1n9 for posting a few series of very good articles on riding safety! And many of these articles share information which could not be found in the Singapore bike learning centres.

    I would like to highlight those articles on decreasing radius turn and crisis in the middle of a turn. These are especially useful to those bikers who are into touring trunk and b roads in malaysia and thailand, where there's a higher chance of meeting such situations.

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    Good Stuffs! Thanks

  21. #21
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    To some they are neither here nor there, Some how we are still some where. One day we will eventually get there - JL 060608.

     

     
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    Great stuff man! Really learn alot here about physics and riding!

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    gr8 stuff, time to practise counter-steering, body shifting and not panicking
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    cool pic.....
    why no elbow scraping...?
    Thrash2Limits

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    wah... no color become color pic...ahahah
    I BoRn tO be Perfect BuT EducaTion Ruined mE - AspMonK

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    Originally posted by AspMonK@Apr 20 2005, 12:54 AM
    wah... no color become color pic...ahahah
    no prob MonK

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    very useful tips to pick up!

    Its better to have lived and lost than to never live at all. Live it, the way you want it.


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    great stuff folk check out the book by keith code : "twist of the wrist" its a racing manual but many basic race technique can be learn from there and thing like countersteering and mental training are also included, very good for improving ur survivability on rd too
    qui est??? c'est moi, je m'appel brian.

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    Originally posted by br1an@Sep 1 2005, 07:43 PM
    great stuff folk check out the book by keith code : "twist of the wrist" its a racing manual but many basic race technique can be learn from there and thing like countersteering and mental training are also included, very good for improving ur survivability on rd too
    where to get that manual? hehehe

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    nice articles there...

    Come, as you are, as you were, as I want.... you to be....

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    wooOo....CORNERING BETTER....

     

     
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    The SV takes the off-camber corner!!!
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    hey bout conerin....i juz gt into an accident..can u guys refresh me abit,lets say ur goin at high speed corner and u wanna slow down to control e corner...do use frnt, frnt n back,back brake or engine break...??which is more advisable??
    may ***** grant you e serenity to accept the things that you cannot change, e courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference....

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    fornt brake le.. then down a gear to lower speed more.. if no need to lower speed.. just brake.. then throttle through the corner... all depends la..
    PasSion for rIdinG burns as long as my soul lives...

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  35. #35
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    Originally posted by desmokat@Dec 20 2006, 09:47 PM
    fornt brake le.. then down a gear to lower speed more.. if no need to lower speed.. just brake.. then throttle through the corner... all depends la..
    Using the front brakes IN a corner is a definte no no. You should do all your braking and drop a gear or 2 before entering the corner. Slow in fast out leaves you more reaction time in the corner. Should you really need to brake in the corner because of a tightening turn, rear braking by gently tapping and releasing repeatedly offers the safest braking, if you can't drop another gear in time. This is because a rear slide is more recoverable than a front slide. Front tyres locking will mostly result in a lowside slide. Tapping the rear brakes gently and releasing repeatedly and quickly works in the same way ABS does, albeit a manual, rider controlled form of ABS, which is not always reliable, unless you are familiar with your bike, or you're Rossi Have a safe ride

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    advise

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    nice articles n great advice dude !!

    I don't suffer from insanity,I enjoy every minute of it.
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    Originally posted by czh2002sg@December 27, 2006 09:27 pm
    Using the front brakes IN a corner is a definte no no. You should do all your braking and drop a gear or 2 before entering the corner. Slow in fast out leaves you more reaction time in the corner. Should you really need to brake in the corner because of a tightening turn, rear braking by gently tapping and releasing repeatedly offers the safest braking, if you can't drop another gear in time. This is because a rear slide is more recoverable than a front slide. Front tyres locking will mostly result in a lowside slide. Tapping the rear brakes gently and releasing repeatedly and quickly works in the same way ABS does, albeit a manual, rider controlled form of ABS, which is not always reliable, unless you are familiar with your bike, or you're Rossi Have a safe ride
    I am in general agreement with you comments but would like to add a few more observations about braking in corners.

    One of the problems you find in braking in a corner is that you have a shift in weight towards the front of the bike. Of course this happens in a straight line as well but in a corner you could unload the rear tire enough that it coulc go into a low side skid.

    This would be especially true if you are increasing the braking on the rear wheel. Thus, if I find myself entering a corner too fast, I will first attempt to use rear brake pressure to slow the bike but if that is insufficient I will use the front brake for more stopping power. When the weight shifts forward as a result of braking the front brake can be braked more before it loses traction.

    There is one other serious problem with using only the back brake. If you lock the rear wheel and feel like you are about to go into a low side skid, then release the wheel completely, you have a real good chance of ending up in a high side skid as the rear wheel attempts to come back into a single track.

    The obvious answer is speed control coming into the curve but if you do not estimate correctly then begin with light to moderate back braking which shifts the weight then apply front brakes to further slow the bike.

  39. #39
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    On better cornering, I humbly suggest every rider bring his bike to a race track at least once. Its the safest place to understand yourself and your bike better in corners. Almost any bike also can, and any rider also can. Use the parts of the tyres you have not used before, enter it faster than you ever had. You'll gain a new understanding of yourself and your bike. Lastly, go with more experienced riders and learn from them, and do ask them to wait for you on the ride there. Its boring for first timers, especially 2B bikes like me. Corners kenna lap, straights, sure kenna lap, one hours kenna lap 3 or 4 times by the same guy. But all in good fun and understnading myself better in corners, which is... definitely a lot more than practical in Singapore riding already. Unless... You go to May Hong Song Loop in Northern thailand. Dunno how's its spelled. 1600+ corners, some off the cliff. Hope to go there one day, but I'm not ready.

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    czh2002sg really giving out sound advice here... we get together and we learn.

    Thumbs up!!!
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  41. #41
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    up up up!
    Everyone was a noob sumtimes.. and i'm one NOW

     

     
  42. #42
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    Ah yo Den, its not like its my advice lah. I learn from other people, including you and then circulate loh. refreshes my theory also. yup, we get together and we learn

    pplater aka czh2002sg
    P-plate should be an attitude to safety and riding. There's always more to learn.


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    Then again, upon braking in mid-corner, you will find your bike uprighting on its own if you brake hard on your front brakes, so it isn't exactly a problem. Unless you are bent on shedding some cornering speed while leaning on probably because you are drifting outwards from your intended line, then rear brakes are generally the way to go.

    However, I don't really think tapping your rear brake is the right way to do things. By consecutively tapping your rear brake, you will upset the weight shifting more compared to constantly applying gentle pressure to it. Just imagine going on and off the brakes, you will have your springs rock you forth and back. If the rear happens to lock up like SE mentioned, it's only going to flip you into a bad high side by tapping it on and off again. So it's probably better to just continue locking the rear and low side it.

    The pulsating of ABS works so quickly that you don't exactly physically feel the brakes going on and off, so there is actually a difference. The track junkies will tell you upsetting the load and CG is the last thing you would want to do in mid corners.

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    Ok guys, this was what I did the last time during mid corner to save my ass from kissing another bike ass, low side or high side.

    Close throttle and graduate pressure on the front brake so the force would bring the bike up and while the bike is almost vertical, full brakes front and rear. Depending on the cornering speed, the worst scenerio is crossing on to the opposite speed bump and ride over the grass at much lower speed.

    Give it a practice during track session

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    Hmm... I believe you are riding a big bike? Yeah, big bikes will stand almost automatically if you brake the front hard during corners. Had a friend on big bike with inline braking grabbed the front, and whole bike stood up as you mentioned. Big bikes tend to be heavier and will upright itself, with more weight transfer to the front allowing more braking before losing traction, but small bikes that are lighter will have the front lose traction more quickly without first uprighting itself unless the rider upright the bike first. Its usually grab and kerbummmmm..

    Also, for small bikes, even in straights, rear braking does not really shift the weight forward much as compared to class 2. Small bikes have lighter weight, and the posture of say, a class 2B sportbikes is nothing like class 2 sports type of forward-leaning posture. The weight distribution is more to the rear comparatively between a NSR and a GSX? Most postures of class 2B will have more weight sitting on the rear, which makes it less likely to lift up, but big bikes are still heavier and allows more braking without losing grip? And their more powerful brakes also cause the bike to shift its weight forward more quickly with either brakes. Small bike however, can't really feel much of weight shifting forward with rear brakes, even if you jam them on straights and control the fistail. Heavier riders may be able to rear brake more without locking the rear. All these this may make rear braking or trail braking a somewhat easier technique in corners, nothing like the real thing on a big bike which takes more skill to control and carries more risk. Not sure what I'm saying correct not... Still L plate on these things

    Hmm... The reccomended technique for rear braking in a corner would be to gently depress the rear brake and hold? I've always been tapping on the rear on the rare occasion cars in front start to slow down mid corner and engine braking is insufficient.
    P-plate should be an attitude to safety and riding. There's always more to learn.


  46. #46
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    Originally posted by Pplater@May 01, 2007 01:36 pm
    Hmm... I believe you are riding a big bike? Yeah, big bikes will stand almost automatically if you brake the front hard during corners. Had a friend on big bike with inline braking grabbed the front, and whole bike stood up as you mentioned. Big bikes tend to be heavier and will upright itself, with more weight transfer to the front allowing more braking before losing traction, but small bikes that are lighter will have the front lose traction more quickly without first uprighting itself unless the rider upright the bike first. Its usually grab and kerbummmmm..

    Also, for small bikes, even in straights, rear braking does not really shift the weight forward much as compared to class 2. Small bikes have lighter weight, and the posture of say, a class 2B sportbikes is nothing like class 2 sports type of forward-leaning posture. The weight distribution is more to the rear comparatively between a NSR and a GSX? Most postures of class 2B will have more weight sitting on the rear, which makes it less likely to lift up, but big bikes are still heavier and allows more braking without losing grip? And their more powerful brakes also cause the bike to shift its weight forward more quickly with either brakes. Small bike however, can't really feel much of weight shifting forward with rear brakes, even if you jam them on straights and control the fistail. Heavier riders may be able to rear brake more without locking the rear. All these this may make rear braking or trail braking a somewhat easier technique in corners, nothing like the real thing on a big bike which takes more skill to control and carries more risk. Not sure what I'm saying correct not... Still L plate on these things

    Hmm... The reccomended technique for rear braking in a corner would be to gently depress the rear brake and hold? I've always been tapping on the rear on the rare occasion cars in front start to slow down mid corner and engine braking is insufficient.
    hi zh,

    whether big or small bikes, you can wash out when applying front brakes. the factors are not really "big" or "small" bike, but front wheel grip (and lean angle). perhaps because bigger bikes tend to have better tyres, a bigger contact patch, a more front-biased weight distribution, better suspension, etc (all things which help improve front end grip) you came to your conclusions.

    also, when you apply rear brakes, weight distribution actually goes to the rear, i think.

    re: technique for using rear brakes into corners.... i agree with what gnayed says: braking continuously while in corners would be more stable than on/off application. being prepared to release the pressure somewhat once it slips might be a good thing? i guess it would feel a lot like modulating a power-slide (bike's version of drifting) with throttle control, only now you're using rear brake control. i think it'll really depend on situation. notice that very few bikes do power slides in superbike racing? but it's almost a pre-requisite for motard races? one of the reasons is the difference in risk of high-siding (and maybe rate of tyre wear). so for low speed corners, maybe applying some rear ABS-style (brake til it slips, let go, and brake again) is okay, but for fast corners... hey why are you keeping so little reserve in a fast corner anyway?!

    anyway, back to the real question: how best to slow down in a corner while already leaned over? i've no idea. i hope i'll never be in such a situation! thinking about it frightens me already. it seems to me that generally (because there're so many variables really) using the rear is safer, because you can recover from a rear slide but not from a front. as for tapping, i think steady application is more controllable, but being able to release pressure slightly once it slides might help save the rear slide if it happens (applying rear like ABS).

    it really depends la. i think most of the time when we're riding, we're not leaned over so much to the point where loading the front that little bit more with front brakes will cause a wash out. so in everyday riding, we should be able to slow down in corners with both front and rear, only we should perhaps biase it more to the rear, and definitely not jam the front due to risk of low siding.

    ok this is the end of theory-craft.
    let's go track to practice some day! ride safely everyone!

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    Originally posted by Pplater@May 01, 2007 01:36 pm
    Hmm... I believe you are riding a big bike? Yeah, big bikes will stand almost automatically if you brake the front hard during corners. Had a friend on big bike with inline braking grabbed the front, and whole bike stood up as you mentioned. Big bikes tend to be heavier and will upright itself, with more weight transfer to the front allowing more braking before losing traction, but small bikes that are lighter will have the front lose traction more quickly without first uprighting itself unless the rider upright the bike first. Its usually grab and kerbummmmm..
    Erm... Nope, I believe this phenomenon applies true to small bikes as well (I did it on a Wave and Phantom). Infact I've not tried grabbing front brakes on my later rides (the bigger bikes). What I would do is just trail brake on the front abit in the midst of leaning in to cut some lap times.

    Boofeng:
    I believe you can't control a slide by rear braking at maximum lean because you are either locking up the wheel or spinning it. Spinning the rear back up to speed from a brake lock-up at full lean on a high speed sweeper will surely flip you onto a high-side (according to my experience), whether you recover from it or not depends on your luck.

    I've not played motard (so pls correct me if i'm wrong) but according to my knowledge of controllable rear sliding is, you cannot lock up the rear, or at least not at full lean. What motard riders do is they actually drop gears to create a difference in spinning speed of the rear tyre and bike travelling speed to lose the traction. In this way they do not lock up the rear but infact just induce a difference in travelling speeds. Or either that, they grab hard on front wheels to force weight shifting on the front wheel to lose traction on the rear, but the rear is still spinning.

    Then again, I've seen stunt riders induce slides by jamming up the rear brakes on an almost upright position, then give it throttle to overpower the rear while leaning in to execute the drift. Actually, it is perfectly alright to trail brake into corners, because our front tyres can take more grunt more than you think. But don't bet on it.

  48. #48
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    The tendancy of the bike to stand up under braking is due to the caster of the front wheel (More on Caster angle). Caster angle helps with stabalising the front wheel and is what lets u ride hands off and maintain a straight line.

    Bikes with more relaxed steering angle (forks that are less steep in angle from the horizontal) have large caster angle and are very stable straight line machines. The small amount of front wheel frictional drag is amplified through the large caster angle to keep the wheel pointing straight. This makes the bike reluctant to turn as well.

    In a turn, the steering is just so slightly turned. When the brakes is applied, the effect is to tremendously increase the frictional drag acting through the front wheel, forcibly straightening the wheel. You stand the bike up and go straight, it's what the caster angle is designed to do. Applying the rear brakes will not do this as the frictional forces does not act through the front wheel. I have crashed once standing the bike up braking to arrest a tank slap mid turn, this is with a super4.

    That said, modern sportbikes have steep forks with very much reduced caster effect. They brake wonderfully well into a turn and is much more effective at slagging off speed in a turn than applying the rear brake with all the weight transfer to the front. The brakes must be applied smoothly with the body already shifted to the inside of the turn to offset the 'standing up' of the bike. This straightens the bike a little while maintaining the turning radius, reducing the chance of the rear wheel breaking loose.

    I cover my front brake in a turn and have no problems coming to stop quickly when leaned over.

  49. #49
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    gnayed: hmmm, yes. apologies about my comparison of this with controlling power-sliding, which is indeed a quite different situation (though the point that a high-side due to rear wheel skid is less likely at lower speeds should still be relevant). power-sliding is over-spinning, our situation is under-spinning; and in power slides, you deliberately make a controlled slide to square the corner, in our scenario, losing speed is the priority, not using slides to choose a better line (though that could be useful depending on what kind of obstacle you encounter). it would be more appropriate to compare with how ABS works.

    i agree with you that recovering from a completely locked rear wheel would be impossible for most ordinary people under general conditions, as you described. the thing is, it need not be from a complete lock, right? ABS does not wait for a complete lock to occur before it kicks in, it detects skidding based on difference between wheel speed and vehicle speed. the question is, can humans feasibly do something similar? to know that there're many questions:

    for a given scenario (speed, lean, tyre, geometry, etc etc),
    1. how long, after initiating a skid, does it take the wheel to lock up, given careful brake application?
    2. how long does it take for the front and back wheel to become misaligned?
    3. can the human detect the skid, and take corrective action, in less time than required for (1) and (2)?

    once (1) and (2) happens, it becomes the situation you describe, which is virtually impossible to recover from. if we can react in time, perhaps there's a chance of recovery from the skid.

    for (1), i wondered very long about how fast a wheel would lock up once it loses traction. i'm not sure... my brother asked me to put my bike on main stand and try it. in a high gear, with throttle closed, it seems like it'll be quite easy to lock, and once it's locked, recovery is impossible.

    for (2), depends on the sharpness of the corner and the speed of the vehicle. it could be really short, or you might actually have a generous margin. no idea at all.


    so what are the implications of all these on road riding? since we don't know much about (1) and (2), and since (1) and (2) might be very different for different scenarios (e.g. 80kmph vs 140kmph, angle of lean, tightness of turn), maybe this discussion is pointless. like gnayed and ANR Impex (and myself) have said, there's usually more than enough allowance left for front braking, when road riding. so maybe.. i don't know, it's better to use the front than to risk a sliding rear?

    that said, we do know of people who've lost their front ends in corners before, right? (i've lost mine at sub-50kmph, very little lean, under gentle acceleration through a damp corner, but with bad tyres and badly adjusted suspension) every situation calls for a different response? knowing the limits of your bike would help somewhat in choosing the right response for the right situation.

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    Wahahaha... I dunno whether to laugh or to cry. After reading the posts this afternoon, i went out trying to do my normal braking deliberately with the bike leaned at an angle. My bike initially did not stand automatically. I later realized the reason was that i only braked gently. Nor did my weight shift to the front, because i didn't brake hard enough. I tried to moderate braking and it stood upright automatically. The funny part was i got surprised. I think its funny because I've been cornering in those 270 degress flyovers between expressways and never got to to do hard braking mid corner for almost a year already such that i forgot what its like to do so. Reading about safer street riding made me pick up habits such that for almost a year, after i buang, i have not had to brake hard enough in a corner to stand the bike. Usually i glance at the exit which is on left of the entry as i enter it to gauge what the exit speed would be like, and end up holding constant speed in the corner and accelerating at the exit. On the rare occasion, traffic is held up at the exit, because i went into the corner slow, i usually uprighted the bike myself first immediately before braking. I guess staying off the brakes in corners as advocated by many in this forum, the proper techniques of slow in fast out have made me forget the dangers of braking deep into corners. All those stickies in this thread kept me safe in corners until i genuinely forgot braking hard enough stands the bike up. Dunno whether to laugh or to cry.

    I think this is a testimony to Endlessloop's method of riding, the HOV concept. Check out Street Smart thread. Coupled with the rest of the stickies in this forum, I've actually managed to post something stupid in this thread which goes like "braking in corners does not stand the bike up". Need to dig a hole....
    P-plate should be an attitude to safety and riding. There's always more to learn.


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