Class 2B Before Class 3 is a MUST !

[Ken]

While riding bike : u will be more less safe guard

While driving car : u will be more dangerous to other road user if u didn't ride b4. ( but to agreed on this point, u got to agreed that a person who ride b4 he drive is a more complete road user)

of course not all who drive only is really that jia lut, many had remain accident free, but even if they didn't get into accidents, did they had many close shave b4?

maybe yes, maybe no, but if yes, is their reflexes good enough to steer them out of trouble or is the other party experience that avoided the accident?

Even for those who ride and drive, they are still elligible for accidents, but the probabilities is greatly reduced.

Still, if u ride b4 u drive, isn't it better?

[tooned]

Originally posted by Tyrian@May 28 2004, 01:20 PM

My dream bike is a harly davidson which is at least 1000cc and yet i have to wait for 2 years upon passing my 2b den i can get it provided i go for my class 2a and class 2...

 

My dream car is a wrx but i juz need to pass my licence to get it...

 

Which is more dangerous??

how does giving you a wrx make you dangerous?

however if after getting 2b and you were allowed to get a class 2 bike, do you think you'll be able to handle it and get used to the power?

 

personally having driven a 3litre car and 1.6litre car, i feel that there's really not much difference in terms of handling. some bigger cars are even simpler to drive and safe. why are they safer? they have the power to accelerate the car away from danger and all you have to do is to step on the accelerator and turn the steering wheel. there's no need to balance the car or use your body weight to swerve like a bike. even if there's contact of any form in a car of any cc, the driver and passengers wouldn't be that badly imjured.

 

riding is so much different from driving. so much more skill and coordination is requred. thus we have 2b, 2a and finally 2.

 

having to take class 2b before class 3 is just impractical. too many people have a phobia of riding a bicycle, let alone a motorcycle. so are these people destined to take public transport for the rest of their lives? many other factors too...

[mechwira]

Originally posted by tooned@May 28 2004, 02:18 PM

personally having driven a 3litre car and 1.6litre car, i feel that there's really not much difference in terms of handling. some bigger cars are even simpler to drive and safe. why are they safer? they have the power to accelerate the car away from danger and all you have to do is to step on the accelerator and turn the steering wheel. there's no need to balance the car or use your body weight to swerve like a bike.

i would like to point out that the same can be said of bikes. given an experienced rider, reckless or otherwise, he is safer on a super4 than he would be on an RXZ. a super4 would have better 'power-on-demand', better turning and swerving capabilities, better stability, less possibility of skids during turns, among others.

 

putting aside the issue of the feasability of changing the system, and focusing on safety, i think we have to argue on what makes cars different from bikes.

[william_liu]

I think mechwira's idea of automatic upgrade could work very well in this situation.

 

Rather than make drivers take Class 2B before their Class 3, they can introduce a staggered tier system limiting the capacity of the cars "P" platers can drive.

 

Automatic upgrade of licence will be granted after one year probation. Although it's not a perfect solution by far, it can be a good compromise.

[dyerfix]

Originally posted by Ken@May 28 2004, 01:07 PM

No problem siaoliao.

but some people is just too arrogant by nature to be have the rite attitude on the road... just hope that they do not get others into trouble.

 

recently, whenever i saw drivers using hp while driving, i will horn them and gesture to tell them to stop it. but after i went off, who noes what they do.

 

anyone noes what the penalty if they are caught using hp or both hands not on wheels?

punishment for using handphone while driving should be an immediate court case...if not mistaken...handphone may be confiscated too...

[dyerfix]

hi guys...not sure if u guys have noticed....someone wrote in the ST forum today bout the classification of class 3 which should follow the bike staggered system....

[tooned]

Originally posted by mechwira@May 28 2004, 05:12 PM

i would like to point out that the same can be said of bikes. given an experienced rider, reckless or otherwise, he is safer on a super4 than he would be on an RXZ. a super4 would have better 'power-on-demand', better turning and swerving capabilities, better stability, less possibility of skids during turns, among others.

yes i fully agree with your point, but that isn't really the topic we're discussing about at the moment

 

hmmm some differences between a car and a bike in terms of safety when handled by a beginner. a ferrari wouldn't wheelie like a hayabusa if the accelerator/throttle is opened all the way at once. locking up of wheels on a bike would mean a 99% chance of rider kissing the floor while in a car, it'd just skid. it'd require experience or a lot of leg strength to balance a goldwing (guessing it's a heavy bike) but it does not require any balancing at all when driving. how many people would go out to buy a car smaller than 1000cc when they just pass and then upgrade the next year $$$$ ?!

 

i'm sure there are many more reasons why there is no need for a staggered class 3.

 

anyway as for making drivers more aware of motorcyclists, maybe they should be taken on the bike simulator and shown what can happen to others if they fail to becareful. i doubt many people would want to sit pillion on a bike even with an instructor. so the next safest option? make them go on the bike simulator.

[mechwira]

yes i fully agree with your point, but that isn't really the topic we're discussing about at the moment

 

well hey, if thats not what we discussing then you shouldn have brought up that example.....

 

hmmm some differences between a car and a bike in terms of safety when handled by a beginner. a ferrari wouldn't wheelie like a hayabusa if the accelerator/throttle is opened all the way at once. locking up of wheels on a bike would mean a 99% chance of rider kissing the floor while in a car, it'd just skid. it'd require experience or a lot of leg strength to balance a goldwing (guessing it's a heavy bike) but it does not require any balancing at all when driving. how many people would go out to buy a car smaller than 1000cc when they just pass and then upgrade the next year $$$$ ?!

 

see, we need to agree upon what context we are arguing here. if it is in the context of rider/driver safety, then yes you are correct. but what about from the context of passer-by/other road users safety? in this context, wats the diff between cars and bikes with referance to a staggered system?

[tooned]

alright the example of "power on demand" was to point out that a powerful car can be useful and handled by a new driver but a new rider will find it difficult to handle a powerful bike.

 

as for the safety of other road users, does that mean a 1000cc swift travelling at 70kmph is less likely to kill than a 70kmph 2000cc E200? i believe speeds of up to 50kmph is fast enough to cause serious injuries or death. so how would a staggered system help? besides forcing new drivers to buy a 1000cc car instead of driving the family car?

[mechwira]

alright the example of "power on demand" was to point out that a powerful car can be useful and handled by a new driver but a new rider will find it difficult to handle a powerful bike.

 

where usefulness is concerned, i think if its useful for the driver, then surely its useful for the rider too. where handling ability is concerned, i think its debatable. granted, a person completely new to both cars and bikes might have an easier time getting on a powerful car than he would on a powerful bike. i have no driving experience, but you cannot deny that there have been cases of p-plate drivers on powerful cars like merz crashing due to loss of control, so its not unheard of. easier than bike is one thing, but easy enough that it makes no difference is another.

 

as for the safety of other road users, does that mean a 1000cc swift travelling at 70kmph is less likely to kill than a 70kmph 2000cc E200? i believe speeds of up to 50kmph is fast enough to cause serious injuries or death. so how would a staggered system help? besides forcing new drivers to buy a 1000cc car instead of driving the family car?

 

it applies to bikes as well, even if you shift the context to apply to rider safety. a rider doesn need to get on an R1 and hit 200kmh before being dangerous, 70kmh on a cub is sufficient. just like bikes, the issue is on control, not the speed at which the vehicle is capable of.

[tooned]

i still don't see why class 2b before class 3 is a must *points at topic*

[Shay]

guys guys....u all really think gahment will allow staggered drivers liscense or 'class2b before class 3" meh?

 

as mentioned, this will definitely put off many ppl (who hate or scared of bikes) to obtain a liscense. THUS, fewer ppl getting liscence is inline with Govtment's policy of fewe cars on the road But what will Gahment earn when all the p platers all buy 1 litre cars?

iz money, money money. introducin this system will result in lower COE earned by LTA. dun think the snobs up there will approve of it.

[william_liu]

I think a capacity limit of up to 1.4 or 1.5 litres for "P" plate drivers, with automatic upgrade to full licence after 1 year may be more acceptable.

[ahwing]

Originally posted by william_liu@May 31 2004, 12:48 AM

I think a capacity limit of up to 1.4 or 1.5 litres for "P" plate drivers, with automatic upgrade to full licence after 1 year may be more acceptable.

agreed...

 

hmmz...another pointer...

wat bout the new system they wanna come up with....

the 'class 3' for automatic cars...

somehow...i feel that'll put MORE reckless drivers on the road....

 

sad to say...a cousin of mine panicked and floored the accelerator instead of braking....hitting the back of another car...

[Ken]

Thinking that a class 2B before class 3 would help in creating more complete road users ( if u agreed that a person who ride before he drive is a more complete road user )

but what shay pointed out make sense too.

 

So what suggestions can we come out in this area by making a person to ride before he drives? ( if u agreed that a person who ride before he drive is a more complete road user )

[william_liu]

I do agree that drivers who are riders too make more complete road-users.

 

The only way is to make it legislation. The main problem with that is (aside from the taxes factor pointed out by Shay), many parents (I would dare to say 99%) who can afford to own or buy a car for their children most probably would not want their children to be riding a motorcycle in the 1st place.

 

Statistics show us that as motorcyclist we are the most vulnerable group of road users. The same people who draft and approve the proposed legislation will most likely also be the same group of people I have mentioned above.

 

I do not think they will be willing to expose their children to such "dangers" (although we know that more often than not the real dangers comes from other road-users) and therefore it will be near impossible to push this proposal through.

[Ken]

yes william, it is a suggestion which will not be easy to go through.

afterall, riding is much much more dangerous inregardless of what is the reasons.

so what can we do leh?

haiz...

[Shay]

Originally posted by Ken@Jun 1 2004, 02:42 PM

yes william, it is a suggestion which will not be easy to go through.

afterall, riding is much much more dangerous inregardless of what is the reasons.

so what can we do leh?

haiz...

perhaps during the class 3 lessons..make it compulsory for the students to actually have one or 2 practical lessons on motobikes.

 

if that is not practical, either have the class 3 trainees pillion with the bikes intructor on a 'outside-road' rounding..make them understand the dynamics of a bike and teach them about how vulerable bikes can be.

 

if the 2nd suggestion still not close enuff to reality then maybe we can include a video session in thier theroy portion that screens what happens when a car gets careless when motobikes are around.

 

but frankly..... the last suggestion is still not 'powerful' enuff to change ppl's mentality.

 

recklessness is just part of some people.

maybe have stricter laws on wayward driving? but that wont make those class3s better drivers like some of us that have motobikes n car licenses.

 

admit it guys, we are the better lot!

 

[hohosaint]

Has anyone proposed this system to the LTA yet? Personally, this will definately minimise motorcyclist accident on road as a part of how motorcycle is being ridden and, how vunerable it is.

[misterbean]

Originally posted by Shay@Jun 2 2004, 12:27 AM

have the class 3 trainees pillion with the bikes intructor on a 'outside-road' rounding..make them understand the dynamics of a bike and teach them about how vulerable bikes can be.

 

i like this idea

 

During my 2B lessons last year, we had to climb up unto a lorry just to get a feel of "blind spots" and to impress upon us the danger of tailgating esp lorries

 

Getting class 3 traineers to go on a road session with the instructors will definitely help them understand the characteristics and limitations of a rider ... better still, make them do it on a rainy day

 

coming from my own experience, had around 10 years of exprience as a driver before I took 2B lessons ... but what I learnt about bikers in those few short months as a 2B trainee definitely surpass what I thought I knew in those 10 years in my car

[Tyrian]

Instead of having class 2b b4 class 3 is a must, why not lengthen the p-plate period for those who first obtained their class 3? lets say 2 years? and maybe if within this 2 year period he taken up class 2b n passed it within 2 year, den shorten the p-plate period by 1 year...

 

it can apply to bikers as well...

[mechwira]

Originally posted by Tyrian@Jul 22 2004, 09:11 PM

Instead of having class 2b b4 class 3 is a must, why not lengthen the p-plate period for those who first obtained their class 3? lets say 2 years? and maybe if within this 2 year period he taken up class 2b n passed it within 2 year, den shorten the p-plate period by 1 year...

 

it can apply to bikers as well...

i have never ever believed that the p-plate serves its intended purpose.

[ZLord]

Originally posted by mechwira@Jul 23 2004, 02:28 AM

i have never ever believed that the p-plate serves its intended purpose.

yea true...P-plate is actually for let other road users know that you just got your licence not long ago...to give way to you...but seem that noone ever gives way...basically got put anot also no difference...except being caught by tp

[yohji]

Originally posted by ZLord@Jul 23 2004, 11:30 PM

yea true...P-plate is actually for let other road users know that you just got your licence not long ago...to give way to you...but seem that noone ever gives way...basically got put anot also no difference...except being caught by tp

Agree ... waste money only, summore if P-Plate kena stolen, waste even more money!

 

Some pple see P-Plate, the more they want to bully!

[Ken]

Originally posted by misterbean@Jul 18 2004, 03:48 PM

i like this idea

 

During my 2B lessons last year, we had to climb up unto a lorry just to get a feel of "blind spots" and to impress upon us the danger of tailgating esp lorries

 

Getting class 3 traineers to go on a road session with the instructors will definitely help them understand the characteristics and limitations of a rider ... better still, make them do it on a rainy day

 

coming from my own experience, had around 10 years of exprience as a driver before I took 2B lessons ... but what I learnt about bikers in those few short months as a 2B trainee definitely surpass what I thought I knew in those 10 years in my car

Thank you misterbean, u are a very alive example of what i mean by Class 2B is a must before Class 3.