Vehicle Ownership Transfer - Owner is overseas

[Pulser]

Hello Guys,

 

I just bought a bike and the owner is overseas. He had added a subrider on the bike and I bought the bike from the subrider. I have got insurance on the bike and paid the subrider in full.

 

The subrider said that the owner will courier the IC to him and then we can go to do the transfer.

 

The subrider and me signed a letter stating that the vehicle has been sold to me and payment is recieved and I would be responsible for any fines, road tax etc.

 

I read from the LTA website that vehicle ownership transfer should be effected within 7 days of the sale.

 

I think the subrider is an honest guy, but my question, what if the owner refuses to send his IC by courier and says that he will come to SG may be 6 months later and then do the transfer. In this case am I commiting an offense because I have bought the bike but the transfer has not been done yet?

 

Please let me know if, potentially, I couldnt get into trouble here and what should I do to safeguard myself.

 

Thanks in Advance!

[Pulser]

Hey guys, anybody knows the answer?

[samuelftw5]

You bought the insurance without being the vehicle owner, isit valid? And are you sure that you can transfer just by a sub-rider who is holding its IC ? I think you might need to get the sub-rider to get the power of attorney from the owner before he can do anything. Please double check with LTA. Hope it'll help.

 

Cheers.

[Demon]

You have made several mistakes :

- Buying a bike from a sub-rider without the consent of the owner

- Buying a bike without checking the title (what if the bike is stolen)

- Paying for the bike before the transferred is done.

 

Although you have bought insurance in your name, your cover is only effective when you become owner of the bike. Meaning to say that in the event of an accident, your insurer will not be liable to any claims, both from third party or by yourself.

 

Now that you are in this situation, to prevent getting yourself into more trouble, park your bike somewhere safe and don't ride it until this matter is sorted out. Meantime, you should correspond with the owner directly to see if the entire story match up. If the subrider is unwilling to provide you the owner's contact, then something is fishy.

[Pulser]

You have made several mistakes :

- Buying a bike from a sub-rider without the consent of the owner

- Buying a bike without checking the title (what if the bike is stolen)

- Paying for the bike before the transferred is done.

 

Although you have bought insurance in your name, your cover is only effective when you become owner of the bike. Meaning to say that in the event of an accident, your insurer will not be liable to any claims, both from third party or by yourself.

 

Now that you are in this situation, to prevent getting yourself into more trouble, park your bike somewhere safe and don't ride it until this matter is sorted out. Meantime, you should correspond with the owner directly to see if the entire story match up. If the subrider is unwilling to provide you the owner's contact, then something is fishy.

 

Thanks for your input. I know what I did is quite reckless, but thats me, I take risks always and most of the time needlessly and this is one of those. But I am pretty sure that the subrider is genuine and I have seen his IC and have his IC number. It was he who initiated that we make an agreement and he got the photocopies of his IC and my IC and DL.

 

I am sure as long as I have insurance on the bike, then its covered, no worries there.

Anyways, my question is not whether whether the seller is genuine or not, my question is; what if the seller cannot do the name transfer, according to the LTA law its an offence if the name transfer is not done within 7 days. What if the owner is overseas and cannot come to do the transfer and cannot do the Power of attorney also?what next?

[Demon]

I am sure as long as I have insurance on the bike, then its covered, no worries there.

 

I don't think you got it. Having bought insurance, and having proper insurance cover are two separate matters. Yes, you have bought insurance for this bike in your name, but your insurance cover is only effective when you become the registered owner.

 

Anyways, my question is not whether whether the seller is genuine or not, my question is; what if the seller cannot do the name transfer, according to the LTA law its an offence if the name transfer is not done within 7 days. What if the owner is overseas and cannot come to do the transfer and cannot do the Power of attorney also?what next?

 

If that's the case, that bike is effectively not yours.

 

Have you checked if there is outstanding installments for this bike ?

[Pulser]

I don't think you got it. Having bought insurance, and having proper insurance cover are two separate matters. Yes, you have bought insurance for this bike in your name, but your insurance cover is only effective when you become the registered owner.

 

If that was the case can only the owner of the bike ride a bike? As far as I know anybody can ride any bike as long as that person has insurance on it in his name. Say 4 people in a family want to ride a bike. What will they do in that case? Anyways, I dont care about cover, all I want to know is whether I am breaking a law. If I get caught on the road, if TP sees that I have insurance on the bike, then from the perspective of "insurance" I should be safe. No?

 

 

If that's the case, that bike is effectively not yours.

 

Have you checked if there is outstanding installments for this bike ?

 

No I haven't checked anything. Purely on the basis of trust. I dont mind if the bike is effectively not mine, if the max I lose is the amount that I gave the person for buying the bike.

[tingchiyen]

Quick answers:

 

1. You can't buy the bike from the sub-rider since he's not the legal owner of the bike and has no legal title to the bike, unless he's contracting on behalf of and with the consent of the registered owner. A sub-rider is only a rider permitted by the owner to ride the bike, and for whom additional sub-rider coverage is purchased under the owner's insurance policy.

 

2. Rule 25 of the Road Traffic (Motor Vehicles, Registration and Licensing) Rules requires that the registered owner as well as the person to whom he transfers the vehicle register the transfer within 7 days. Failure to do so would be a general offence punishable under the Road Traffic Act with fine not exceeding S$1,000 or imprisonment not exceeding 3 months (for 1st offenders), or S$2,000 or imprisonment not exceeding 6 months (for 2nd offenders). It's probably arguable whether or not there would be a breach here since technically you do not even have a valid sale and purchase of the vehicle from the registered owner since you did not actually contract with the owner, unless the sub-rider is acting as the owner's agent in some way.

 

3. You can register a transfer with owner's original NRIC and the NRIC of the 3rd party who is submitting the application on behalf of the Owner together with your NRIC. If owner is not providing NRIC, owner would need to provide a duly executed Power of Attorney signed before a notary public / consular officer, and the named Attorney would need to turn up with the Attorney's original NRIC to effect the transfer together with the original Power of Attorney. Types of Identification Documents - OneMotoring

 

4. Buying insurance cover for a bike does not mean that the insurance company will actually cover you if you do not fulfill the terms of coverage. Most standard motorcycle insurance covers would require that you own the bike, unless you're buying some specialised industry non-owner coverage (like motor workshop coverage etc.). You might want to check the terms of your policy – it is unlikely that you would fulfill the conditions of cover if you are not the owner of the bike, which may lead to the insurance company disavowing coverage. Even if the insurance company pays out under the policy because it is forced to (in the event of personal injury or death to any third party), it would still be able to look towards you for such payments.

[indiewhispers]

Hmm I did not know you cannot ride a bike not registered under your name.

 

What if the bike is a gift from someone to you? All the while I thought as long you are insured for the bike, you can ride it regardless of whether the vehicle is under your name or not. My dad's bike is under my mum's name and she does not have a bike license, nor is she insured by the insurance coy. So she is the registered owner of the bike. While my dad just ride it.

 

Don't seem to have any issues so far but if there are summons or offences, it will be sent to the registered owner. The registered owner must then declare the rider details if he/she is not the one riding the vehicle. Maybe call up LTA and insurance coy check better.

 

Edited: By the way not sure if I am on topic, but hope it helps. Sorry if the post sounds irrelevant.

Edited July 21, 2011 by indiewhispers

[cruisecontrol]

Hmm I did not know you cannot ride a bike not registered under your name.

 

What if the bike is a gift from someone to you? All the while I thought as long you are insured for the bike, you can ride it regardless of whether the vehicle is under your name or not. My dad's bike is under my mum's name and she does not have a bike license, nor is she insured by the insurance coy. So she is the registered owner of the bike. While my dad just ride it.

 

Don't seem to have any issues so far but if there are summons or offences, it will be sent to the registered owner. The registered owner must then declare the rider details if he/she is not the one riding the vehicle. Maybe call up LTA and insurance coy check better.

 

Edited: By the way not sure if I am on topic, but hope it helps. Sorry if the post sounds irrelevant.

 

 

Lemme try to clarify things in layman terms :

 

For your dad's case, your mom is the registered owner but the insurance is bought by her but not covering her as a rider (insurance company call this as non-rider). In the insurance policy terms, they will state that your dad is the named rider and he is the only one covered under the insurance policy.

 

For TS case, you have purchased the insurance policy, yes but that is in regards that you changed the ownership of the motorcycle within a stipulated time becoz LTA terms and Conditions; you have to provide an insurance policy that covers the bike when u changed the ownership. IF, you did not managed to change the ownership to your name;

 

1) You are not covered by the insurance in case if any collision occurs and the other party claims against you

2) When police/TP stop you ... by looking they MIGHT let you go but in the event of any collision or accident, when the IO investigate the matter and check your insurance policy, they would and could find out that you were riding without any insurance coverage and you could have your license suspended/revoke.

 

Hope it clears up a bit.

[cruisecontrol]

If that was the case can only the owner of the bike ride a bike? As far as I know anybody can ride any bike as long as that person has insurance on it in his name. Say 4 people in a family want to ride a bike. What will they do in that case? Anyways, I dont care about cover, all I want to know is whether I am breaking a law. If I get caught on the road, if TP sees that I have insurance on the bike, then from the perspective of "insurance" I should be safe. No?

 

One bike insurance policy can only covers the owner and 1 sub rider. Unless it is a company registered bike and the insurance for for commercial use (eg, pizza delivery company's bike, etc). If you are caught on the road, by looking, you might get away. But if the TP got enuff time, checked the ownership with the Ops Room and counter check with your insurance policy, 1) you might be stopped on suspicion of theft of m/cycle and 2) committed an offense of riding without insurance coverage.

 

 

 

No I haven't checked anything. Purely on the basis of trust. I dont mind if the bike is effectively not mine, if the max I lose is the amount that I gave the person for buying the bike.

But for getting caught with riding a motorcycle without an insurance coverage, your loss will be much more than just $$$

[indiewhispers]

I see. I am in a similar situation as TS. I am taking over my friend's bike and have been riding it with my own insurance. I am the main rider and my brother the sub rider. We haven't do the vehicle ownership transfer yet cos the bike is under my friend's dad name and all of us no time yet.

 

Is this illegal? If yes, the best way out is, park the bike, get the vehicle transfer done ASAP? Can I just bring down photocopy of the IC and ask his dad sign the form first? Cos we are not able to set a date together.

[cruisecontrol]

I see. I am in a similar situation as TS. I am taking over my friend's bike and have been riding it with my own insurance. I am the main rider and my brother the sub rider. We haven't do the vehicle ownership transfer yet cos the bike is under my friend's dad name and all of us no time yet.

 

Is this illegal? If yes, the best way out is, park the bike, get the vehicle transfer done ASAP? Can I just bring down photocopy of the IC and ask his dad sign the form first? Cos we are not able to set a date together.

 

Yes bro, like i said, touch wood, if u got into any collision and there' a claim made against you, you are gonna be looking at a lawsuit of a few thousand dollars coz the insurance co will repudiate the claim and forward all claims to you for you to handle. ( injury cost, litigation/lawyer costs, property (vehicle) damage costs )

 

photocopy of ic is not recognised by the LTA. Both parties sign the form, have both parties' physical NRICs and do the transfer at LTA.

[cruisecontrol]

multi post.

Edited July 21, 2011 by cruisecontrol

[cruisecontrol]

multi post.

[indiewhispers]

Ok so as long both parties sign the form and I have the current registered owner IC should be enough? Anyway, sub-riders are not the bike owners but they can ride. Is this the same?

[cruisecontrol]

Ok so as long both parties sign the form and I have the current registered owner IC should be enough? Anyway, sub-riders are not the bike owners but they can ride. Is this the same?

 

Yups. Both seller and buyer have to sign the form and both buyer and seller NRICs must be presented to the LTA officer at the counter. Insurance policy for coverage can only be bought for the owner + 1 sub rider only.

[indiewhispers]

Yups. Both seller and buyer have to sign the form and both buyer and seller NRICs must be presented to the LTA officer at the counter. Insurance policy for coverage can only be bought for the owner + 1 sub rider only.

 

I just called LTA and my insurance company. Told them I already have insurance for the bike but not registered owner and asked if will have any issues in any way. Both said as long I am insured to ride the bike, it is fine.

 

LTA said the insurance must cover till the road tax expiry date and during transfer, it has to be pre-dated.

 

Insurance company asked why haven't transfer, I said no time. They said the only issue they know is most likely the expiry of road tax. And they just said if possible get the ownership transferred ASAP.

 

Should I check with TP straight? My colleague's relative working as TP.

[cruisecontrol]

I'm doing motor vehicle investigation for insurance claims and my advice is based on my experiences.

 

If you think what they said is valid, then i suggest you take down the name of the person who spoke to you and put it on record the date and time you called. Best if you have it in black and white. At the end of the day, if you are involved in a collision, you will be the one that is going to be subjected to an investigation, etc. I would suggest you get them to answer you the following question;

 

1) In the event of a collision and the bike is not under my name ( haven't transferred name to you ) but the insurance policy is bought under your name, would you still be covered if there is any claims against you?

 

Good luck.

 

p/s: i think it just boils down to common sense, if it's ok to ride a bike with your insurance policy but the bike is not under your name ..... then wouldn't it be too easy for anyone to just buy an insurance policy for any bike not belonging to him and just ride the bike?

[indiewhispers]

I'm doing motor vehicle investigation for insurance claims and my advice is based on my experiences.

 

If you think what they said is valid, then i suggest you take down the name of the person who spoke to you and put it on record the date and time you called. Best if you have it in black and white. At the end of the day, if you are involved in a collision, you will be the one that is going to be subjected to an investigation, etc. I would suggest you get them to answer you the following question;

 

1) In the event of a collision and the bike is not under my name ( haven't transferred name to you ) but the insurance policy is bought under your name, would you still be covered if there is any claims against you?

 

Good luck.

 

p/s: i think it just boils down to common sense, if it's ok to ride a bike with your insurance policy but the bike is not under your name ..... then wouldn't it be too easy for anyone to just buy an insurance policy for any bike not belonging to him and just ride the bike?

 

I see. What about those who haven't pay the bike full yet and still on installments from shop/current owner? How to deal with the ownership?

 

Maybe send email will be good as black and white. Thanks for the advice

[cruisecontrol]

For bikes still on loan, usually the only way is ;

 

1) sub ride - put the buyer's name in the owner's insurance, after full payment of instalments then do the xfer of ownership

2) change ownership at the bike shop, they will do the xfer for you and u continue to continue the installments ( subject to bike shop terms and conditions )

3) pay the outstanding installments in full and do the xfer of ownership.

 

Bottom line, at the end of the day , it's you who are riding and it's you are taking a risk by doing things that are against the norm. If you think the risks are well worth it, by all means , go ahead and do so. But be prepared for any consequences should anything happen. There are a lot of peeps out there driving/riding without a license, without insurance, etc .. so it all boils down to how responsible are you and how much risks you want to take.

[cruisecontrol]

either my connection sux or something is wrong, always multi post.

sorrie

[indiewhispers]

For bikes still on loan, usually the only way is ;

 

1) sub ride - put the buyer's name in the owner's insurance, after full payment of instalments then do the xfer of ownership

2) change ownership at the bike shop, they will do the xfer for you and u continue to continue the installments ( subject to bike shop terms and conditions )

3) pay the outstanding installments in full and do the xfer of ownership.

 

Bottom line, at the end of the day , it's you who are riding and it's you are taking a risk by doing things that are against the norm. If you think the risks are well worth it, by all means , go ahead and do so. But be prepared for any consequences should anything happen. There are a lot of peeps out there driving/riding without a license, without insurance, etc .. so it all boils down to how responsible are you and how much risks you want to take.

 

Ok bro thanks for the detailed information. Appreciate it

[cruisecontrol]

no worries bro, just sharing what and where i can.

ride safe

[GuiNNeSS]

I see. I am in a similar situation as TS. I am taking over my friend's bike and have been riding it with my own insurance. I am the main rider and my brother the sub rider. We haven't do the vehicle ownership transfer yet cos the bike is under my friend's dad name and all of us no time yet.

 

Is this illegal? If yes, the best way out is, park the bike, get the vehicle transfer done ASAP? Can I just bring down photocopy of the IC and ask his dad sign the form first? Cos we are not able to set a date together.

 

Yep. You are not owner of the bike, though you have the insurances boughts. And Yep. Its ILLEGAL. Though in a lessor term, when and if you and your bro are caught or involved in a accident. In other words. There may be lessor penalties against you or your bro because you both has the intention to cover yourself in insurances, but is not aware that your insurance company does not cover you in this situation.

 

But now that you are aware. Can you and your bro stop riding, till you get the transfers done?