Running in a 2-stroker

[doubl3mint]

Hi all, I have been asking around for information in the running in of a 2-stroke bike, particularly in the oils used, and reading up where available, but I have found little information to substantiate certain claims that bike shops and individuals have made.

 

Furthermore, due to differences in 2-stroke and 4-stroke bikes, I am unsure whether the same applies to both. Hopefully this thread can consolidate all available information in the minds of our brothers here, and bring out the errors in our thoughts, if any.

__________________

 

Firstly, I read that that 2-strokers use two types of oils, 2T oil and transmission(gear) oil.

 

2T is mixed with petrol and burnt, while transmission oil remains solely in the gear box to facilitate the wet clutch.

 

Before I read about the transmission oil part, I was using 4T oil, which most of the strokers here are using as well, I'm sure.

 

However, comparing the characteristics of transmission oil such as

 

Maxima MTL http://www.maximausa.com/products/gearlubes/mtl.asp

 

and 4T oil such as

 

Maxmima Maxum 4 Extra http://www.maximausa.com/products/4stroke/maxum4synthextra.asp

 

I see pretty big differences. As such, which would be more beneficial for a 2-stroker?

__________________

 

Secondly, during running in, I hear mostly people saying only use mineral oil. Does that apply for 2-strokers as well?

 

If it does, does it apply to only the transmission oil/4T oil, or also 2T oil?

[kurarensu]

For 2strokes, it's best that they uses Gear Oil instead of 4T Engine Oil. As Engine oil provides LIGHTER lubrication for the gears that's why u feel more power and easier to shift whereas gear oil is slightly thicker so some people might experience that it's harder to upshift as it's SLIGHTLY stiffer..

 

Long usage of Engine oil on 2stroke machine will damage the gears (as heard from most shop's mech).. Running in the gear oil dosen't matter, most important is the 2t ratio and the temperature the bike is running at.. try not to ride it in heavy traffic where the heat will increase.. running in the temp shld be smooth, constant

[doubl3mint]

local temperatures are not conducive for the oils, that's for sure. 2 strokers should use gear oil where possible!

Edited November 16, 2014 by doubl3mint

[kurarensu]

ah thanks for the insight kurarensu, anyone else care to share as well?

 

np bro, wat i say might not be true as well..

[waadee]

what i know is that there is a diff between transmission oil and gear oil... from what i learn during my driver days in NS.. transmission oil is for auto gear box like some auto jeep the saf have around.... so for transmission may its fit for auto scoot.. but i mayb wrong

[doubl3mint]

yup waadee i think you're right about that

Edited November 16, 2014 by doubl3mint

[SparkerS1]

btw, found some mineral 2T sold at shell stations, think i'll use it for my run-in. going full mineral for 2T and 4T, will report back after i'm done! keep sharing knowledge peeps!

 

mineral 2t??? u sure got this product? i first time heard of it.

mineral oil can be used for running in but semi-syn engine oil also can.

i used semi-syn engine oil to run in my 2 stroker also.

as for 2T, use the one u can afford, no point buying expensive ones, can use semi-syn or fully-syn

[doubl3mint]

haha, yup there is bro, i was quite surprised to see it too. shell station got, if you pass by can go and see. $7.70 for one litre bottle

[mepkoh]

i am a bit confused..

2 stroke bikes as in ta 150 phantom..:

2t is for mixing with petrol. is this oil also used in the engine as in EO??

or use 4t??

 

appreciate ur answer

[mepkoh]

gear oil??

in cars...eo..engine lubrication oil with SAE no.

Auto transmission oil..or transmission oil..

these are seperate oils...

eo change 5000/10000 km mineral/synthectic..reccommended by car mfg.

 

if you look at eg. mobil website their mobil1 fully synthectic their recommendation is 15000 MILES per oil change..who should we believe??

 

transmission oil change 30000 to 50000 depends on mfg..

 

 

i think mfg of vehicles all ks and oil mfg all gung ho

[ah786786]

i tink mayB he refering to mineral engine oil....i nv really heard or mineral 2T....

 

how i run in my 2 stroke scooter....

 

use mineral EO,for first 800km (speed wise keep to 80km/h,slow just vary the speed)

 

after 800km-1000km,change EO to the normal EO,either semi or fully(recommended semi)

 

than after every 4000km change EO of ur preference....

 

1 tip if riding 2 stroke bike,for running in right,use abit of 2t mix to petrol,so ur piston won't get too hot when running in.

 

And when running in dun continusly run the bike for more than 1 hour,let it cool down and run again.

 

when stoping try to use more engine brake than ur front or rear brakes...

 

hope it goes well....lol,after the 800km run in rite,just increase the speed slowly,don't immidialty chiong liao....

[doubl3mint]

love the discussion going on!

Edited November 16, 2014 by doubl3mint

[SparkerS1]

lastly, according to the mechanics and service manager at hong leong, two strokers can use semi-syn or full syn oils, be it 2T or 4T, right from the start.

 

this is correct, i agree

[mepkoh]

u mean use 2t oil for normal sevice???..i had the ta 150 serviced at Planet..they use an american brand ( noticed the carton has an america flag)..did not bother to ask...4t semi syn multi grade i think 20w-40 or something ..

i am surprise to hear u can use 2t to replace that???

 

wao......that is surprising indeed..

[mepkoh]

hi mepkoh, to share what i learnt after scouring all the threads, as well as the internet, for 2-strokers, the 4t oil that we use does not go into the engine to lubricate the engine, it stays only in the gearbox. that is why 2-strokers can use gear oil in replacement of engine oil (4T).

 

the lubrication of the pistons is done by the 2T oil, which is mixed in the petrol.

 

because of this fact, 2-strokers do not require the use of mineral 4T oil for the first so & so km, and can straightaway use semi or full synthetic 4T.

 

and yes, there is such a thing as mineral 2T. go to any shell petrol station, they sell it off the shelf. i think its called Shell VSX(unsure), green bottle, yellow label. i bought a bottle myself, then upon checking the JASO grade, it turned out to be JASO FB, one grade short of my bike's recommended JASO FC grade. so i changed it for the VSX2, which is a semi-syn 2T oil which meets JASO FD requirements.

 

lastly, according to the mechanics and service manager at hong leong, two strokers can use semi-syn or full syn oils, be it 2T or 4T, right from the start.

 

hahah..i think u r just confuse as me..

u cannot use transmission oil for the engine..it has totally different properties..beside the piston rings...big ends and small ends...there are a whole load os stuff to be lubricated and kept cool too

the most important is to keep the crank shaft and its attendent bearings well lubricated..at this point what type of EO? u may ask..

the answer is how u use the bike and its environment to choose a suitable EO..

 

eg 5w-65 ..who will use this?? not u or me..this is expensive stuff.

this is a typical racing vehicle EO..where the engine is highly stressed and very very hot all the time..this is where the 65 comes in..

i am no expert in EO....only that a wrong choice ends up with

spendin too much and thorwing good money down the road..(eg..u will hardly use your vehicle like a race driver..)

on the ohter hand a wrong type towards the opposite end...will degrade your vehicle engine faster...

thats the reason there is a thread on what EO to use...different bike different EO..hahah for most of us noraml riders...20w-40 will do..unless you ride your bike hard maybe increase the 20w-50 or 55 or 60..

At the end of the day... the nission is to find a suitable grade at a least cost.

 

as for running in....use the cheapestoil..and dont stress the engine..

least money...and change the oil..cars do it at 500 km run in..motorbike at 800km?? hey how many cylinders to u have?? compared to a car..800km to me is too long..

[SparkerS1]

u mean use 2t oil for normal sevice???..i had the ta 150 serviced at Planet..they use an american brand ( noticed the carton has an america flag)..did not bother to ask...4t semi syn multi grade i think 20w-40 or something ..

i am surprise to hear u can use 2t to replace that???

 

wao......that is surprising indeed..

 

what are u talking about???

he means that 2t or 4t can use semi or fully straight from start, not using 2t to replace 4t, u get it???

[mepkoh]

oh i see...there is something called gear oil???? u know all sorts of description from year pasts....now sound very odd...

but take note....dont use fully synthectic oil EO...the wet clutch may be in trouble if u use that..

as for the idea that 2t oil added to petrol does the cooling is really off the mark..it just aids in the lubrication at the ring area...the 4t we use not only lubricates the gears/clutch , it lube the engine too.

[mepkoh]

hi mervyn..

4t oil is used to lubricate the engine period.

It just happen that the clutch mechanisms( u mention gears=clutch mech ??) are encased in the same comapartment.. so the EO (4t) is formulated to do 2 jobs lubricate engine as well as the clutch mechanism (or gears)...

 

Because all are wet cltutch type of design it is not advisable to use a fully synthectic EO...

Please take note do not use EO meant for cars..they are just different animals.

 

Thats the reason the oils used for bikes are known as 2t and 4t..

ya..sorry to be so lao hei....

Ya i know some 4t is fully synthectic.....the thing is do u follow the bike mfg reccommendation..or the sales man (ie the oil company)..u make the choice.

I defintely do not use fully synthectic EO on my ta 150.. it will b an xpensive experience if the clutch needs replacement.

[doubl3mint]

lol, mepkoh, i am absolutely not confused. let me try to simplify my earlier post.

 

the 2-stroke engine is of a different design from a 4-stroke engine.

 

the 2-stroke engine (i.e. pistons) is lubricated via 2T, whereas the 4-stroke engine is lubricated via 4T.

 

for the 2-stroke engine, 4T is used (a substitute being gear oil) only to lubricate the clutch, and not the pistons.

 

 

in conclusion, 4T oil does not enter the engine in a 2-stroker.

 

________________________________________________________

 

now with regard to your posts.

 

1st point:

2T cannot be used to replace 4T, as you would know by now. this is because they serve different purposes.

 

2nd point:

i dont understand the cooling part, i dont remember mentioning anything about 2T aiding cooling.

 

3rd point:

as far as i know the 4T only stays in the gearbox in a 2-stroker. may i know which other part of the engine it goes to? no sarcasm intended, its a sincere question.

 

4th point:

why wet clutch cannot use fully synthetic EO?

[mepkoh]

lol, mepkoh, i am absolutely not confused. let me try to simplify my earlier post.

 

the 2-stroke engine is of a different design from a 4-stroke engine.

 

the 2-stroke engine (i.e. pistons) is lubricated via 2T, whereas the 4-stroke engine is lubricated via 4T.

 

for the 2-stroke engine, 4T is used (a substitute being gear oil) only to lubricate the clutch, and not the pistons.

 

 

in conclusion, 4T oil does not enter the engine in a 2-stroker.

 

let me try to clarify the cooling system of any automotive engines.

 

engines can be cooled by either air or liquid( this could be water+coolant, oil ..etc)

 

i am riding a ta 150...this is a water /liquid cooled engine..the design of the the engine is such that there is a water body (this is the term used) around the engine..this body of water carries away the unwanted heat away to the radiator via the engine lubrication.This lubrication oil..or EO..is splashing inside the engine while it is in operation...by means of the rotating crank shaft and its counter- weights..the idea is that the it will splash the lube oil all over including the piston cylinder and rings as well as to the piston rod bearings..ie small end and big ends..it so happends that the ta design the clutch mechanisms..where the gears are, also housed in the engine compartment.So you do not have transmission oil added seperately. the engine and the clutch is being lubricated by the same EO and the unwanted heat is cooled/carried away via the lube oil..incidentally it is called 4t..note not gear oil???

 

Air cooled engines have long fins at the exterior of the engine cylinder head/block..this is to facilitate the cooling by having a large surface area

 

Because of the the engine is running at such a high RPM..the components are under a lot of streses..thus this 4t is different from car EO.normal cars max RPM do not exceed 8000 RPM...while normal bike RPM could reach 15,000 .

 

why is 2t necessary??? this is required to aid the cooling of the cylinder/ piston head/ rings..because of the design...4 strokes engines dont need 2t. they have inlet/exhaust valves rather than ports...the hot combusted air is exhausted through it. As for the 2 stroke engines...the combusted air leaves through ports..and some of the combusted air can get into the engine sump, resulting in hot spots.. (you have to look at the engine design to understand this)..thus 2t is supplied to the petrol to aid in the lubrication and cool...the rings/cylinder.As you have already mentioned...this is not combusted and leave the engine via the exhaust pipe as smoke..white smoke..

 

if 4t is only used to lube the gearrs... what about the engine??

 

why i mentioned cannot use fully synthectic 4t ..

 

most bikes clutches are wet type....the fully synthectic 4t may result in your clutch slipping...thats why i follow the bike mfg recommendation..not the oil company. Unless u want o try.. of course in the beginning you have wonderful silky smooth gear shifting/change but watch out you may end up with expensive clutch repairs/replacements..

 

okay..this is my limited understanding of the engine lube and cooling system..

please point out any areas that is incorrect...your input is appreciated..

 

dont worry..i am not offended in any way....i will be very glad that someone out that can correct any of my misconception..thank you guys for making me clearer on issues pertaining to bikes.

i used to ride a lambretta long time ago...always add 20 cents worth of lube oil to the petrol when filling up...nowadays we have 2tand pumps...so dont have to premix the petrol...

 

 

 

________________________________________________________

 

now with regard to your posts.

 

1st point:

2T cannot be used to replace 4T, as you would know by now. this is because they serve different purposes.

 

2nd point:

i dont understand the cooling part, i dont remember mentioning anything about 2T aiding cooling.

 

3rd point:

as far as i know the 4T only stays in the gearbox in a 2-stroker. may i know which other part of the engine it goes to? no sarcasm intended, its a sincere question.

 

4th point:

why wet clutch cannot use fully synthetic EO?

let me try to clarify the cooling system of any automotive engines.

 

engines can be cooled by either air or liquid( this could be water+coolant, oil ..etc)

 

i am riding a ta 150...this is a water /liquid cooled engine..the design of the the engine is such that there is a water body (this is the term used) around the engine..this body of water carries away the unwanted heat away to the radiator via the engine lubrication.This lubrication oil..or EO..is splashing inside the engine while it is in operation...by means of the rotating crank shaft and its counter- weights..the idea is that the it will splash the lube oil all over including the piston cylinder and rings as well as to the piston rod bearings..ie small end and big ends..it so happends that the ta design the clutch mechanisms..where the gears are, also housed in the engine compartment.So you do not have transmission oil added seperately. the engine and the clutch is being lubricated by the same EO and the unwanted heat is cooled/carried away via the lube oil..incidentally it is called 4t..note not gear oil???

 

Air cooled engines have long fins at the exterior of the engine cylinder head/block..this is to facilitate the cooling by having a large surface area

 

Because of the the engine is running at such a high RPM..the components are under a lot of streses..thus this 4t is different from car EO.normal cars max RPM do not exceed 8000 RPM...while normal bike RPM could reach 15,000 .

 

why is 2t necessary??? this is required to aid the cooling of the cylinder/ piston head/ rings..because of the design...4 strokes engines dont need 2t. they have inlet/exhaust valves rather than ports...the hot combusted air is exhausted through it. As for the 2 stroke engines...the combusted air leaves through ports..and some of the combusted air can get into the engine sump, resulting in hot spots.. (you have to look at the engine design to understand this)..thus 2t is supplied to the petrol to aid in the lubrication and cool...the rings/cylinder.As you have already mentioned...this is not combusted and leave the engine via the exhaust pipe as smoke..white smoke..

 

if 4t is only used to lube the gearrs... what about the engine??

 

why i mentioned cannot use fully synthectic 4t ..

 

most bikes clutches are wet type....the fully synthectic 4t may result in your clutch slipping...thats why i follow the bike mfg recommendation..not the oil company. Unless u want o try.. of course in the beginning you have wonderful silky smooth gear shifting/change but watch out you may end up with expensive clutch repairs/replacements..

 

okay..this is my limited understanding of the engine lube and cooling system..

please point out any areas that is incorrect...your input is appreciated..

 

dont worry..i am not offended in any way....i will be very glad that someone out that can correct any of my misconception..thank you guys for making me clearer on issues pertaining to bikes.

i used to ride a lambretta long time ago...always add 20 cents worth of lube oil to the petrol when filling up...nowadays we have 2tand pumps...so dont have to premix the petrol...

 

 

 

_________________________________________

[SparkerS1]

hi mervyn..

4t oil is used to lubricate the engine period.

It just happen that the clutch mechanisms( u mention gears=clutch mech ??) are encased in the same comapartment.. so the EO (4t) is formulated to do 2 jobs lubricate engine as well as the clutch mechanism (or gears)...

 

Because all are wet cltutch type of design it is not advisable to use a fully synthectic EO...

Please take note do not use EO meant for cars..they are just different animals.

 

Thats the reason the oils used for bikes are known as 2t and 4t..

ya..sorry to be so lao hei....

Ya i know some 4t is fully synthectic.....the thing is do u follow the bike mfg reccommendation..or the sales man (ie the oil company)..u make the choice.

I defintely do not use fully synthectic EO on my ta 150.. it will b an xpensive experience if the clutch needs replacement.

hey mepkoh, i think u are really very confused right now!!!

u seems to mixed up n confused over these engine oil thingy.

pls read mervyn comment below

 

 

lol, mepkoh, i am absolutely not confused. let me try to simplify my earlier post.

 

the 2-stroke engine is of a different design from a 4-stroke engine.

 

the 2-stroke engine (i.e. pistons) is lubricated via 2T, whereas the 4-stroke engine is lubricated via 4T.

 

for the 2-stroke engine, 4T is used (a substitute being gear oil) only to lubricate the clutch, and not the pistons.

 

 

in conclusion, 4T oil does not enter the engine in a 2-stroker.

 

________________________________________________________

 

now with regard to your posts.

 

1st point:

2T cannot be used to replace 4T, as you would know by now. this is because they serve different purposes.

 

2nd point:

i dont understand the cooling part, i dont remember mentioning anything about 2T aiding cooling.

 

3rd point:

as far as i know the 4T only stays in the gearbox in a 2-stroker. may i know which other part of the engine it goes to? no sarcasm intended, its a sincere question.

 

4th point:

why wet clutch cannot use fully synthetic EO?

 

this is useful. mervyn is gd

 

my comments:

for pt 1: 2T to replace 4T is madness, what gives u the idea to think of that?

 

for pt 2: 2T aids cooling??? then coolant use for what??

2T is for lubrication of piston for 2 stroke engines.

 

for pt 3: yeap, the oil in the gearbox stays there only for 2 stroke engines.

 

for pt 4: seriously, nobody really cares, ppl might be using wet clutch system but using esso 4T gold, but certain bikes if use fully syn 4T will cause clutch slip, personal preference lah

[doubl3mint]

hmm, take a look here, http://www.howstuffworks.com/two-stroke.htm, and here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-stroke_engine.

 

yes mepkoh, i love discussions like these too, can find out all about the subject in question.

 

ok of specific note from the 2nd URL, from Wiki,

 

"Two-stroke engines often have a simple lubrication system in which a special two-stroke oil is mixed with the fuel, (then known as 'petroil' from "petrol" + "oil") and therefore reaches all moving parts of the engine. Handheld devices using this method of lubrication have the advantage of operating in any orientation since there is no oil reservoir which would be dependent upon gravity for proper function. Depending on the design of the engine system, the oil can be mixed with the fuel manually each time fuel is added, or an oil pump can automatically mix fuel and oil from separate tanks."

 

now compare this to the 4-stroke engine, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-stroke_engine, and see the design difference? take note of the oil location in the engine here.

 

___________________________

 

i've always thought that 2-stroke engines were a marvel, that's why i ride them, haha. my neighbours hate the smoke and the noise, and the fuel consumption is terrible, but still, its an intriguing piece of art.

 

by understanding the information in the above URL's, you can also see why the exhaust plays such an important role in a 2-stroker

[mepkoh]

ya..i am hopeless.....

what is the effect of lubrication??

what is the purpose of EO, gear oil ..or whatever oil u use..

 

The main thing is to reduce friction...why need to reduce it ??

because gentlemen...with friction heat is produced...thats why the main thing is to prevent the built up of heat ....or else the whole engine seizes.

i am sure u must have heard of piston jam etc....

lubrication oil task is to minimise friction..

what do you think the 2t is for?? lubrication u may say...what if i dont?? piston jam results...why?? because friction/heat is produced..piston and rings and cylinder all expanding at the same time resulting in piston jam..thats why cooling and managing the engine's working temperaturethe is of paramount importance..

 

so i gather..

 

ok mervyn is right ...so be it..

 

thank you gentlemen..

 

i have my queries answered..

[sheep]

Well... 2 stroke runs on 2T, put 4T in..

[mepkoh]

thanks mervyn...u have clarified all my quries..

 

please disregard all that i posted..some of it is my misconception....

 

thanks guys...