Ignition Advancers

[rayhunter]

look and sound simple yet powerful mod...

[Lims]

hahaha.. ya lor.. internal mods are good! =D

[rayhunter]

hahaha.. ya lor.. internal mods are good! =D

 

not too much..very addictive..haa

[BioMoDiFIed]

Haha...as long as the engine doesn't blow-up ok liao...

[bigboystoys]

Why advance the timing? You're just shifting your power band to a certain RPM and risk losing power or worse still, introduce unwanted knocking to other rpm band.

 

In some old carb-engines and most new generation EFI engines (cars and motorcycles alike), there's a timing advance/retard device. For old engines, it's usually vacuum or centrifuge driven. For EFI, as name implies, electronically driven. For EFI with knock-sensor, the ECU advances timing as need be till knock is detected. Note that for both the carb and EFI engines, the timing is changed according to the RPM and throttle input so they are - technically speaking - getting the best of both worlds.

 

If you install the adjustable timing gear and set it to 'advance', there's no way you can retard it for different RPM's requirement.

 

BTW, factory setting is for a compromise for fuel economy, power and reliability. So while you may get more power or better fuel economy, something else will suffer (usually reliability).

[JbAtRaCeR]

Why advance the timing? You're just shifting your power band to a certain RPM and risk losing power or worse still, introduce unwanted knocking to other rpm band.

 

In some old carb-engines and most new generation EFI engines (cars and motorcycles alike), there's a timing advance/retard device. For old engines, it's usually vacuum or centrifuge driven. For EFI, as name implies, electronically driven. For EFI with knock-sensor, the ECU advances timing as need be till knock is detected. Note that for both the carb and EFI engines, the timing is changed according to the RPM and throttle input so they are - technically speaking - getting the best of both worlds.

 

If you install the adjustable timing gear and set it to 'advance', there's no way you can retard it for different RPM's requirement.

 

BTW, factory setting is for a compromise for fuel economy, power and reliability. So while you may get more power or better fuel economy, something else will suffer (usually reliability).

 

What you mention bro is true factory setting is still the best. One more thing i like to apologies,advancing the ignition improves the low to mid range rpm and not mid to high range rpm. My bad. Did'nt listen well when my lecturer.

 

I did asked him which shop does these,but he forget already. Too long never ride bikes.

 

Basically this mod is more for city riding where there's lots of stop and go.

[bigboystoys]

Let's assume that we have already changed all the necessary items to provide more-than-adequate fuel (fuel starvation is out of question) and proper intake/exhaust manifolds and whatnots.

 

So we're left with fuel-mixture and ignition timing to play with.

 

JbAtRaCeR, you're not wrong in saying that advancing timing improves low-mid range. I presume you meant for S4 bikes, advancing the timing has proven to improve the low-mid.

However, I disagree with you that advancing timing will NOT improve mid-high. At every RPM and load (throttle input), there's an optimum fuel-mixture and ignition timing which most NEW EFI engines are able to provide. For carb engines, the advancement is usually provided by a mechanical means which means, you get some form of advancement but not well controlled.

 

For EFI engines, depending on how expensive the engines are, the fuel mixture and ignition advance/retard can be VERY precisely controlled. With a close-loop feedback, these engines can be advanced right till the point it starts to knock.

 

The point I'm trying to make here is, ignition timing can be optimised (advanced or retard) to re-tune the engine, especially those that has non OE parts added to it. If you have to retart the timing at high end to make power, so be it. But as far as I know, we usually advance the timing at the higher end to really make power. Nobody really complains about advancing more.

 

So there you, as a general sweeping statement, yes advancing does make power, but in reality you have to understand reasons behind it. Loads more reasons airflow, fuel atomisation, fuel burning speed, volumetric efficiency and stuffs like that but we'll leave that out for now.

 

[JbAtRaCeR]

Good info bro,learning new things. Btw here's my bike setup.

 

LV exhaust(with "ehem" removed)

SS 4-1 headers

KNN airfilter

Mainjet change to 105 and 108(original is 103 and 105)

Ignition advanced to about 5 degrees

 

Before advancing,my low- mid rpm suffer especially when moving off but i get to hit 190 at 12krpm quite easily.

 

After advancing,my low-mid is good and i suffer alot between 9krpm to 12krpm.

 

 

This automotive technology is really makes me want to learn more science and math.Wished i was soo motivated during my secondary school days. Hehe!!...

[bigboystoys]

No probs.

I'm learning new stuff about my S4 too. Mine has nothing in it except K&N filter.

 

And hahaha.. this is sooo embarassing.. I've not gone past 120km/h.

Partly because I'm a chicken ****. And partly because I don't know the history of this bike's maintenance so I don't dare to go fast lest things start to fall apart at high speeds. Until I serviced everything myself, I'll still be crawling around. Still have rear wheel bearings, chain/sprockets, and head bearing to change.

Anybody can let me use their workshop? Haha

[loyjwe]

wah all very chim. but seems like it means with this ignition advance, gicves u more pick up but lesser top end. hope some1 can find where n how much for this ba. btw this is a "build in" or a external device?

[JbAtRaCeR]

No probs.

I'm learning new stuff about my S4 too. Mine has nothing in it except K&N filter.

 

And hahaha.. this is sooo embarassing.. I've not gone past 120km/h.

Partly because I'm a chicken ****. And partly because I don't know the history of this bike's maintenance so I don't dare to go fast lest things start to fall apart at high speeds. Until I serviced everything myself, I'll still be crawling around. Still have rear wheel bearings, chain/sprockets, and head bearing to change.

Anybody can let me use their workshop? Haha

 

 

During my course in ITE Yishun,the school's workshop is like mine already. Now graduate already i cant DIY much due to lack of tools.

 

Loyjwe: You might want to try going to Bikeworkz.

[loyjwe]

ok thanks upzz

[Lims]

yes bike workz does it.. Xiao^Bai did it b4. haha.. he say good.

[loyjwe]

price?? any1??

[RaceWerks]

Let's assume that we have already changed all the necessary items to provide more-than-adequate fuel (fuel starvation is out of question) and proper intake/exhaust manifolds and whatnots.

 

So we're left with fuel-mixture and ignition timing to play with.

 

JbAtRaCeR, you're not wrong in saying that advancing timing improves low-mid range. I presume you meant for S4 bikes, advancing the timing has proven to improve the low-mid.

However, I disagree with you that advancing timing will NOT improve mid-high. At every RPM and load (throttle input), there's an optimum fuel-mixture and ignition timing which most NEW EFI engines are able to provide. For carb engines, the advancement is usually provided by a mechanical means which means, you get some form of advancement but not well controlled.

 

For EFI engines, depending on how expensive the engines are, the fuel mixture and ignition advance/retard can be VERY precisely controlled. With a close-loop feedback, these engines can be advanced right till the point it starts to knock.

 

The point I'm trying to make here is, ignition timing can be optimised (advanced or retard) to re-tune the engine, especially those that has non OE parts added to it. If you have to retart the timing at high end to make power, so be it. But as far as I know, we usually advance the timing at the higher end to really make power. Nobody really complains about advancing more.

 

So there you, as a general sweeping statement, yes advancing does make power, but in reality you have to understand reasons behind it. Loads more reasons airflow, fuel atomisation, fuel burning speed, volumetric efficiency and stuffs like that but we'll leave that out for now.

 

 

 

Nice info:

 

Hope u guys dun mind some of my inputs: especially following instances of the REVO we've done inhouse.

 

Only pertaining to the ignition on the REVO , paiseh neber really went deep into the Vtec cdi....

 

We went thru several loggings, and found out that the PGM FI unit on the REVO actually consist of at least 5 individual igniton curve maps in stock ECM... triggered from several parameters while riding.

 

A bit overkill for the stock REVO.

 

We tried the rotor mod. without much success, we logged slightly better punch in the low end... lost hell more on the uppers. Reverse wise... the bike felt like a pig...

 

Stole a Dynojet igniton module from Felicia's inventory...

 

We actually hope that with the IM, to be able to finetune at every 250 rpm at various throttle openings.... +10 or - 10 on the map curves.

 

It worked on several stock ECM maps override only although there were performance everywhere.

 

We had not still been able to make our REVO work 100% with the IM, when the ECM switch over... it actucally lost more power than the previous tune with only PC3....

 

So for now, it is only the medium for our custom quickshifter on the REVO... enabling us to rapid shift thru gears, minimising power losses...

 

I would not recommended twitching any ignition modifiers or cutting rotors without the proper knowledge.. better pass to your trusted mechs and be able to tell them and get from them what you need out of your ride.

 

Wrong ignition can lead to serious premature damage on the engine.

 

My humble opinions,

Norman

[bigboystoys]

Hi Norman,

 

Thanks for the insights.

 

Can you elaborate more on this statement of yours?

- we had not still been able to make our REVO work 100% with the IM, when the ECM switch over... it actually lost more power than the previous tune with only PC3....

 

when you said 'when the ECM switch over', what did you mean by that?

And I gather that you had more success with just the PC3? The PC3 only alters the fuel map only but not ignition right?

 

 

Thanks

[RaceWerks]

Hi Norman,

 

Thanks for the insights.

 

Can you elaborate more on this statement of yours?

- we had not still been able to make our REVO work 100% with the IM, when the ECM switch over... it actually lost more power than the previous tune with only PC3....

 

when you said 'when the ECM switch over', what did you mean by that?

And I gather that you had more success with just the PC3? The PC3 only alters the fuel map only but not ignition right?

 

 

Thanks

 

Hihi,

 

 

ECM Switching:

 

The REVO use 3 ignition curves during norm, 1/2/3 & 4/5/6 gears, with another map when the clock struck 170kmph on the meter.

 

3 other curves came up in our datalogger, whenever a preset parameter is override althou there might be more:

1) F.I malfunctions

2) MAP sensor under load

3) the bloody coolant temp....

 

We were able to make more power with the IM, only in 4/5/6, although a LCD Commander might be helpful for the 1/2/3.

 

However when the ''failsafe'' curves takes over, we lost more than 15% on power... compared to only using the PC3, where a marginal 5% loss is effected, simliar to the stock ECM, athou only fuelling is mapped.

 

We deemed it too troublesome to actually couple in all the various F.I parameters, 16 in all x 5 curves for the REVO, especially with the stock radiator & coolant system in our REVO... the NC29 HRC 3 core radi didn't fit in without fouling the wheel/clearance.

 

Therefore we dumped the ignition maps, for usable power everywhere, streets, jams, tracks.

 

In fact this joker ''bling'' the temp light every 5 hard laps of P.G.....and we only lost 5 % power, and the bling bling cleared off by the sixth lap...then came again in 5th.... $%%$)@!@#$#%)&^(&^&%*

 

Regards

 

Norman

[JbAtRaCeR]

Fuhhooo!!! Luckyly mine spec 3...Looks like revo is one tough nut to crack...hehe!!...Upz for Mr Norman..

[RaceWerks]

Fuhhooo!!! Luckyly mine spec 3...Looks like revo is one tough nut to crack...hehe!!...Upz for Mr Norman..

 

heeheehee

 

check this out!!!

 

http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5051174#post5051174

 

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh184/racewerks/Image035-1.jpg

[JbAtRaCeR]

heeheehee

 

check this out!!!

 

http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5051174#post5051174

 

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh184/racewerks/Image035-1.jpg

 

Wow..crack open already....!!

[RaceWerks]

some screenshot of the program, although these are off the Harley

RoadKing

 

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh184/racewerks/pcvcyl2.jpg

 

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh184/racewerks/pcvscreenshotondynopc.jpg