Electrical Issues

[NeoViper]

Hi guys, pardon me for hijacking this thread, but on a similar note...

Assuming i take my motorcycle out for a race, does anyone know any way to spec for how much my battery need to store in order to complete a certain race? is there any means of calculations?

 

this is in consideration of removing the stator coil on my bike, thereby disallowing me to charge the battery while it is running... it should save me quite some weight on the engine. on top of that, in charging the stator coil, i believe the coil actually creates a resistance for the shaft to spin. i'm not sure about this, but i believe it to be so. anyone care to shed some light on this?

[kaozie]

Hi guys, pardon me for hijacking this thread, but on a similar note...

Assuming i take my motorcycle out for a race, does anyone know any way to spec for how much my battery need to store in order to complete a certain race? is there any means of calculations?

 

this is in consideration of removing the stator coil on my bike, thereby disallowing me to charge the battery while it is running... it should save me quite some weight on the engine. on top of that, in charging the stator coil, i believe the coil actually creates a resistance for the shaft to spin. i'm not sure about this, but i believe it to be so. anyone care to shed some light on this?

 

i would rather you remove your battery then your coil...

if i'm not wrong, for a 2 stroke bike, the coil also act as a timer to tell your spark plug when to fire... not so sure for a 4 stroker...

[ANR Impex]

Hi guys, pardon me for hijacking this thread, but on a similar note...

Assuming i take my motorcycle out for a race, does anyone know any way to spec for how much my battery need to store in order to complete a certain race? is there any means of calculations?

 

this is in consideration of removing the stator coil on my bike, thereby disallowing me to charge the battery while it is running... it should save me quite some weight on the engine. on top of that, in charging the stator coil, i believe the coil actually creates a resistance for the shaft to spin. i'm not sure about this, but i believe it to be so. anyone care to shed some light on this?

 

There is really no 100% way to determine this, especially with modern fuel injected bikes, the fuel delivery system sucks alot of current. My personal experience with my own ride is that at some point, the bike performance is compromised if you do not have full capacity from the coil, but that's in street trim, with the 55W light. I might get away with it if I free up the 55W.

 

This is unlike the carburetted models which need very little electrical power to keep it running at peak. The only way to know for sure is to try it. I believe some of the race bikes run a smaller coil instead of eliminating it completely.

[NeoViper]

Kaozie and Impex: thanks for the insight

 

from what i know, 4 stroke's ignition timing depends on signals from the camshaft and the crank shaft, so independent of the coil. should be running without lights also, basically a wiring loom consisting of only the ignition, injection, sensors and pump... that shud be it...

 

will look into smaller coil or possibility of no coil... and update here... =)

my intentions are really to remove the coil and the big metal chunk that rotates, and maybe (just maybe) grind of that part of the engine.. haha..

[snowparang]

from what i know, 4 stroke's ignition timing depends on signals from the camshaft and the crank shaft, so independent of the coil. should be running without lights also, basically a wiring loom consisting of only the ignition, injection, sensors and pump... that shud be it...

If possible, you can connect an ammeter and measure the current flow and hence the power used and calculate.

 

Alternatively, why not disconnect the R/R from the coil and battery, and run the bike on the track using a fully charge battery? Run until flat, then you'll know for sure the no. of lap it can last.

 

Btw, this is what's happening to my VFR currently (running on battery only). There is some slight difference in power, because at high rpms I believe the fuel pump and ECU etc works harder and your battery may not be able to maintain that voltage.

[299]

SE, are you sure the magnetic field is generated by electrical means? I think most modern bikes have permanent magnet rotor. Mine does at least...

 

Hmm..jumpers...next items in my toolkit!

 

I don't think a fan is much help but relocating the R/R to another place with better airflow will.

 

I've just noticed on 2 suzuki bikes (bandit and GSR400) that the R/R is mounted on the external of the bike, exposed to the elements. Hondas usually have them behind some cover. Does Suzukis' electrical system have a better reputation?

 

How do we know when the rectifier is going to be faulty? There's case tat the rectifier dissipate more heat than usual.

[PK Leong]

Hi guys, I have a Suzuki Bandit 400 manual, the electrical concept should apply to your issue. I had add in an aluminium panel to increased its cooling efficiency.

 

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/ChargingSystem-01.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/ChargingSystem-02.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/ChargingSystem-03.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/ChargingSystem-04.jpg

[PK Leong]

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/ChargingSystem-05.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/ChargingSystem-06.jpg

 

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/Battery-01.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/Battery-02.jpg

[PK Leong]

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/Battery-03.jpg

 

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/RectifierHeatSink-01.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/RectifierHeatSink-02.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l184/PKLeong/Bike/Rectifer%20and%20Regulator/RectifierHeatSink-03.jpg

[299]

PK Leong

 

Good info.

[paint]

Oei! No need to work....?299???

[NeoViper]

I think rectifier hard to see if "going to be faulty" or not... it either works or it doesn't (i think)

from the pictures kindly provided by PK Leong, the devices in the rectifier are quite "passive". they're not aware of what they're doing, they jus restrict the current in that way, converting it into DC.

 

if rectifier faulty, u should see about 12+ V across your battery if its still charged (when your engine is on)

otherwise, it should be charging up to about 13.8 V

if you have a lot of electronics on your bike, you might find that its lower than 13.8V, but at mid rev, you probably can see the charging go back up again.

 

so assuming u have a very well specced rectifier, producing about sufficient charging for your battery, you should see slightly lower voltage across the battery at low RPM due to low revolution and lower charging. voltage increases as your RPM increases, however, at high RPM, voltage should start dropping again due to the high demand from the coils and the injectors.

 

this is my experience with only ONE motorcycle engine. while i believe it to be quite the case for most engine, i cannot be sure that it applies to all (or even if my understanding is correct)

[snowparang]

Here's my post in another forum, thought it'll be nice to post it here as well.

 

Fried stator, anyone?

 

Now I got a ugly voltmeter on my bike. Can't be helped I guess.....

 

Latest readings are as below. All done without headlights on.

 

Readings with the R/R disconnected:

 

Battery voltage with bike off = [12.6v]

Voltage with bike at idle = [12.42v]

Voltage with bike at 5k RPM = [11.30V]

 

AC voltage from stator at idle (all 3 legs checked across themselves) = [2-3 vac]

AC voltage from stator at 5k RPM (all 3 legs checked across themselves) = [3-4 vac]

 

 

Readings with the R/R connected:

 

Battery voltage with bike off = [12.6 V]

Voltage with bike at idle = [12.42 V]

Voltage with bike at 5k RPM = [12.39 V]

 

Voltage at R/R output at idle = 12.18 V

Voltage at R/R output at 5k rpm = 12.10 V

 

AC voltage from stator at idle (all 3 legs checked across themselves) = [2-3 VAC]

AC voltage from stator at 5k RPM (all 3 legs checked across themselves) = [3-4 VAC]

 

 

Well, it seems my stator is the one causing all the trouble. Is there any possible causes? Will loose wiring cause such a discrepancy?

 

And more bad news...my local dealer do not have stock of the stator!

 

Anybody used the Electrosport ones, are they any good? - http://www.electrosport.com/electrosport_e...cal_honda1.html

Or are there compatible alternatives (other Honda models? Yamaha? Suzukis?)?

After recieving all the help here, I think it's only right for me to update. Btw, mine's a y2k 5th Gen.

 

I've ascertain that my stator is bad, and hence ordered an Electrosport one from somebody selling it off in this forum and (after hearing all praises) decided to get one from Ricks too. Here are the 2 stators:

 

http://www.pbase.com/snowparang/image/80916525/medium.jpg

 

 

Funny, it seems the Electrosport ones is narrower than the one from Rick's. Which one is correct though?

 

http://www.pbase.com/snowparang/image/80916526/medium.jpg

 

 

Then I open up my alternator and took out the old coil. I guess this is what you could call 'burned'. Anybody knows what can cause this?

 

http://www.pbase.com/snowparang/image/80916528/original.jpg

 

Comparing thickness of alternator. The one from Rick's is of the correct dimension. I'll be keeping the Electrosport's one as a spare I guess. Anybody who had used Electrosport's stator coil can confirm that I got the correct coil?

 

http://www.pbase.com/snowparang/image/80916527/medium.jpg

 

http://www.pbase.com/snowparang/image/80916529/medium.jpg

 

 

Next, some readings with the new coil:

 

Bike at 2500 rpm: 14.68V

Bike at 5000 rpm: 14.68V

Stator AC voltage - 24VAC - 67VAC form idle to 5000 rpm

Voltage drop from batt positive to R/R black wire (voltage sensing): 0.287V (which fail the

 

Hence I wire the black sensing wire directly to the battery positive and obtained:

Bike at idle: 13.4V

Bike at 5000 rpm: 14.2V

 

I guess that's good news...until you guys are now debating the credibility of doing the black wire mod! Drats, I've already cut the wire from the harness side...

[ANR Impex]

Is this black sensing wire u mention a connection from the RR +ve output to the +ve of the battery terminal?

[snowparang]

Is this black sensing wire u mention a connection from the RR +ve output to the +ve of the battery terminal?

Well yes and no. Initially it's connected to the engine inigntion switch. Hence it's continuous to gnd when the key is off, and will display the battery's voltage when key is on.

 

However, many in the forum (and also according to my readings) said that the resistance or voltage drop across this wire, along the harness, is too much such that the R/R detects a lower than actual voltage from the battery, leading to overcharging issues.

 

Hence I now connect this black wire directly to my battery positive. Hopefully it will help my electrical stuff to stay alive!

 

Oops, I just reread your question. No the black wire is not from the R/R's +ve to the battery's +ve (that's in red). It's an additional wire. I think not all R/Rs have that.

[299]

Yes, but then if your bike is a 2B bike that has weak charging, you compromise your battery this way. The traffic rule requires you to keep your lights on anyway.

 

Don't waste time worrying about rectifiers, those models that will fail do so because of poor design and there is really nothing you can do to prevent it from failing. The models with good design just go on and on, even with enough heat generated to melt the plastic wiring socket attached to it, because my own bike is well known for doing this.

 

All you can do it is to check for tight contact at the plug and prevent corrosion.

 

How do we able to differentiate whether it's a poor design?

[ANR Impex]

Well yes and no. Initially it's connected to the engine inigntion switch. Hence it's continuous to gnd when the key is off, and will display the battery's voltage when key is on.

 

However, many in the forum (and also according to my readings) said that the resistance or voltage drop across this wire, along the harness, is too much such that the R/R detects a lower than actual voltage from the battery, leading to overcharging issues.

 

Hence I now connect this black wire directly to my battery positive. Hopefully it will help my electrical stuff to stay alive!

 

Oops, I just reread your question. No the black wire is not from the R/R's +ve to the battery's +ve (that's in red). It's an additional wire. I think not all R/Rs have that.

 

oic, thanks.

[ANR Impex]

How do we able to differentiate whether it's a poor design?

 

Very simple, go see if everyone else having the same model is complaining of their's failing. Examples: CBR1000RR coil design got problem, VerS RR got problem.

[none]

Well my 02 VFR has been running for almost 5 years with just 2 change of batteries. Charging system still healthy.

Perhaps you should say that Honda bike is famed for electrical problems.

Look at the CBR1k, how many "new" bikes had their coil fried?

How many S4 bikers actually bring a spare rectifer while touring?

 

Maybe I can shed some light...because I'm a recent owner of a VFR800, which is btw famed for electrical problems!

 

I had bought 2 new Yuasa batteries from a distributor before.

On opening them up, they are measured at 12.6V.

Did a tickle charge overnight, disconnect them an hour before to cool down and they are still at 12.6V.

I had never see 12.9V before unless it is freshly charged. Battery problem?

 

Some inaccuracies here:

An 80% full battery won't read as low as 10.8V open circuit voltage. More likely 12.5~12.7V. A fully trickled charged maintenance free open voltage V is around 12.9V.

[snowparang]

Well my 02 VFR has been running for almost 5 years with just 2 change of batteries. Charging system still healthy.

Perhaps you should say that Honda bike is famed for electrical problems.

Look at the CBR1k, how many "new" bikes had their coil fried?

How many S4 bikers actually bring a spare rectifer while touring?

 

 

 

I had bought 2 new Yuasa batteries from a distributor before.

On opening them up, they are measured at 12.6V.

Did a tickle charge overnight, disconnect them an hour before to cool down and they are still at 12.6V.

I had never see 12.9V before unless it is freshly charged. Battery problem?

The VTEC model (and y2k above actually) models seem to have greatly improved electrical bits but complaints and failures still happen.

 

My Yuasa measured 12.6V thereabouts when I just put in the acid and let it 'air' for 20 mins, as described by the manual. After charging, it reads 13.2V. But yours is a YTX14 isn't it? Higher capacity, so perhaps it needs a longer time to charge? Mine is a YTX12, and it takes 3 hours to charge using a low power charger!

[ANR Impex]

none, your battery is insufficiently charged. 12.9~13V is when it is 100% charged, it takes days on trickle charge.

[299]

as for rectifier, usually when does it takes for the bike to be totally powerless?

[299]

anyone knoes where to get heat insulation tube beside Sim Lim Towers?

 

does our home nearby sell those types?

[Erotomania]

yo 299 buy i mini air-con put near ur rectifier, shld solve ur problem lol.

[299]

yo 299 buy i mini air-con put near ur rectifier, shld solve ur problem lol.

 

it is for the wiring project i'm doing in case in the future for the need to troubleshoot.