need advice on horn wiring

[lawrence21]

i have a hella twintone and my previous mech installed it for me. he connected the horn (with relay) to the +ve of the battery. a few months later my battery died and the next mech whom i brought my bike to told me cannot connect the horn direct to battery and should be connected to ignition instead.

 

i'm confused who is correct? mech1 or mech2?

[arthur_chan]

what? connect to ignition? wont the horn activate whenever u start ur bike?

 

anyway u have to know what u're using. hella is powerful device, thus need more power, u connect it via how a horn normally connect, u wont get it's full potential, unless ur bike itself is supplying more than enough power, which normally isn't the case.

 

the downside of connecting a device this way is that ur battery wont get it's full charge; that is if the device is activated once u start ur bike n constantly draining charge. but do u horn all the way on ur ride? if u're connecting lights, mech2 is might be right.

 

ask mech2 what his reasons were, if for following proper procedure, as him if he know hella n ur bike inside out, n aruge based on my reasoning. if his reasons were valid, i'll like to challenge the supplier too.

[Demon]

i have a hella twintone and my previous mech installed it for me. he connected the horn (with relay) to the +ve of the battery.

 

I do not know of any aftermarket horns that came with relay. So installing a relay may be redundant because the bike would have already have a relay for its horns. Personally I have installed two sets of Hella Supertone, and one set of Bosch (from a car) to my bikes, none required a relay. It was just plug and play.

 

a few months later my battery died and the next mech whom i brought my bike to told me cannot connect the horn direct to battery and should be connected to ignition instead.

 

I think what this mech meant by "connect to ignition" so that there is power supply to the horn only when the ignition is ON. As your horn was connected directly to the battery via a relay, your horn can still work even the ignition is OFF, thus draining the battery.

 

Both mechs are correct. In cars, for safety reasons, the horns must work even when the ignition is OFF. However, this may not be so practical for bikes as they are many itchy hands .

 

Determined the cause of your dead battery, and I don't think it has anything to do with the horn.

[lawrence21]

thanks for the advice guys!

 

i'm trying to narrow down the cause of my dead batt (less than 6 months old), that's why i'm starting from non-factory additions i made to my scoot.

 

i have more questions on testing for current leakage and faulty voltage regulator/rectifier... better start new thread since unrelated to this thread title.

[arthur_chan]

I do not know of any aftermarket horns that came with relay. So installing a relay may be redundant because the bike would have already have a relay for its horns. Personally I have installed two sets of Hella Supertone, and one set of Bosch (from a car) to my bikes, none required a relay. It was just plug and play.

car might not need a relay, it's motor is powerful enough to provide the juice.

bike depends, if ur bike is those big cc, might not need. but for most 2b bikes, better to have.

[kaozie]

I do not know of any aftermarket horns that came with relay. So installing a relay may be redundant because the bike would have already have a relay for its horns. Personally I have installed two sets of Hella Supertone, and one set of Bosch (from a car) to my bikes, none required a relay. It was just plug and play.

 

 

 

I think what this mech meant by "connect to ignition" so that there is power supply to the horn only when the ignition is ON. As your horn was connected directly to the battery via a relay, your horn can still work even the ignition is OFF, thus draining the battery.

 

Both mechs are correct. In cars, for safety reasons, the horns must work even when the ignition is OFF. However, this may not be so practical for bikes as they are many itchy hands .

 

Determined the cause of your dead battery, and I don't think it has anything to do with the horn.

 

all the loud horns i have installed on cars or bikes comes with a relay... if not, you got con...

 

if by connecting to a relay, and your horn still works when the ignition is off, think you wire it wrongly or your mech sucks big time... pls refer to a relay circuit diagramme and you know why...

[kaozie]

car might not need a relay, it's motor is powerful enough to provide the juice.

bike depends, if ur bike is those big cc, might not need. but for most 2b bikes, better to have.

 

dun understand what you trying to say...

hehehe...

[arthur_chan]

dun understand what you trying to say...

hehehe...

 

the purpose of relay is to bypass the weak current ur bike is providing n sharing btw ur lights n other things. thus if ur bike has enough current, a relay is redundant. bigger motor will usually generate more current.

[kaozie]

the purpose of relay is to bypass the weak current ur bike is providing n sharing btw ur lights n other things. thus if ur bike has enough current, a relay is redundant. bigger motor will usually generate more current.

 

you need to speak hokkien???

hahaha...

[tiggerkoh]

powerful horns work at their best when there are enough currents or Amp supply.

 

The stock horn connectors on our bikes(even class 2 bikes) cannot supply enough, so a direct supply form battery is required, the relay is to control the horn activation by the stock horn connectors.

 

when you press the horn switch, the current goes into the relay to activate it(connects to stock horn connectors), Relay activated will close the circuit from the battery thus providing a full power/amp supply to your horn.

 

when you are not using your horn no current is supply out of your battery, so something else id draining your current or your charging is not in good condition, engine runnning there should be about 13V and once rev up it should about 14V but not more than 15V.

 

Should learn more on electricial system on motor cycles.

[kaozie]

powerful horns work at their best when there are enough currents or Amp supply.

 

The stock horn connectors on our bikes(even class 2 bikes) cannot supply enough, so a direct supply form battery is required, the relay is to control the horn activation by the stock horn connectors.

 

when you press the horn switch, the current goes into the relay to activate it(connects to stock horn connectors), Relay activated will close the circuit from the battery thus providing a full power/amp supply to your horn.

 

when you are not using your horn no current is supply out of your battery, so something else id draining your current or your charging is not in good condition, engine runnning there should be about 13V and once rev up it should about 14V but not more than 15V.

 

Should learn more on electricial system on motor cycles.

 

i would say not more than 14.4V

[mechwira]

can someone enlighten me. i just installed hella aftermarket horns.

 

i know what a relay is and how it works (layman understanding).

 

i dun understand: shouldn the original horn also come with its own relay to the horn button?

 

if no, why the stock horns no need?

 

if yes, then why install new horn cannot use back the relay from stock horn? isn it just a matter of unplugging old horn from circuit of horn-batt and replace with new horn? why relay-button circuit is affected and requires changing/installing?

[arthur_chan]

can someone enlighten me. i just installed hella aftermarket horns.

 

i know what a relay is and how it works (layman understanding).

 

i dun understand: shouldn the original horn also come with its own relay to the horn button?

 

if no, why the stock horns no need?

 

if yes, then why install new horn cannot use back the relay from stock horn? isn it just a matter of unplugging old horn from circuit of horn-batt and replace with new horn? why relay-button circuit is affected and requires changing/installing?

 

have u mod ur horns before to tap direct from battery?

if yes, just unplug ur old horn n put in the new ones.

if no, follow the instructions n install the relay n tap ur horns direct from battery. (explanation why is given on the post above)

stock horns r not relay tapped, they get their electricity direct from the retifier.

[mechwira]

have u mod ur horns before to tap direct from battery?

if yes, just unplug ur old horn n put in the new ones.

if no, follow the instructions n install the relay n tap ur horns direct from battery. (explanation why is given on the post above)

stock horns r not relay tapped, they get their electricity direct from the retifier.

 

ok thanks. didn occur to me about the rectifier.

 

so stock horns, weaker sound and lower electrical requirement, hence draw from rectifier, no need relay.

 

aftermarket horns, stronger sound and higher electrical requirement, hence draw direct from battery, thus need relay.

 

i assume this is correct.

 

 

btw, out of curiosity..... i installed my aftermarket hella horns coz i was fed up with the pathetic weak honking of my stock horn. the hella can tell its definitely louder, but still not as loud as car horn, altho to be fair i also know you cant install car horn equivalent loudness with bike batt output, unless illegal air horn. but if i had simply installed a relay without replacing my stock horns, meaning my stock horns then draw electricity direct from batt, would i have made my stock horn louder from the higher electrical input? or would it still be limited by its own weak specifications? or become louder but more prone to damage?

 

just curious.

Edited March 30, 2011 by mechwira

[arthur_chan]

aftermarket horns also can be attached by replacing the stock horns, only u wont get the full output, aka slightly softer sound. the theory is the same as with speakers. u attach a sub wofer to usb output, u barely hear anything. that's why high-powered speakers r not portable n needs a wall plug.

 

2 things determine the output, the volume it's able to pump out n the electricity u feed it.

 

if u put ur stock n connect direct via battery, unlikely u fry it, but since it's volume is that much, u wont get much more. however if u connect to higher volt,eg 24v, the horn might give u 1 last very loud noise n burn out.

 

if ur stock is capable of louder noise but is limited by the retifier, (retifier splits ur electrical output btw all other device like lights), then connecting direct to battery will get u a louder noise.

 

imo, hella's loudness is comparable to car's, if u find it's not up to standard, u can try hooking it via retifier or get ur battery's check out. sometimes the wires might play a part too.

 

btw, relay is to hook to ur bike's on/off. u still can hook anything direct to ur battery, but if some ichy hands find out n play with the buttons, it will drain ur battery. thus u see why stock doesn't need relay, cos retifier already controlled ur on/off.

Edited March 30, 2011 by arthur_chan

[mechwira]

ok now i've got the same prob as TS. except that TS took a few months, and i only took a few days. changed on monday, batt dead today.

 

i'm wondering if i should go back same shop. if mech couldn get it right first time, i wonder why he would get it right second time.

[mechwira]

ok, first of all pardon my amateurish diagram drawing.

 

now which of the below shows how the relay is supposed to be connected?

 

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2961/relay2q.jpg

 

http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/7735/relay1.jpg

[kaozie]

ok, first of all pardon my amateurish diagram drawing.

 

now which of the below shows how the relay is supposed to be connected?

 

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2961/relay2q.jpg

 

http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/7735/relay1.jpg

 

the first looks close...

[ulysses_sc]

Try this....

 

http://www.joe250.com/motorcycles/tuono/hellahorninstall/hellahorninstall.html

[mechwira]

Try this....

 

http://www.joe250.com/motorcycles/tuono/hellahorninstall/hellahorninstall.html

 

the diagram in that website is pretty much my first diagram.

[arthur_chan]

ok, first of all pardon my amateurish diagram drawing.

 

now which of the below shows how the relay is supposed to be connected?

 

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2961/relay2q.jpg

of the 2, i would choose this also.

but normally we not use this setup, cos u'll need to dismantle ur horn switch. the 2nd diagram is possible, however the setup even worse, need to strip igination & horn switch.

 

the easiest setup to do is use the existing horn cables n hook to the circut break of the relay. then the other 2 pt will hook up the horns. do note it's better to put in a fuse btw ur battery n horn.

[kaozie]

of the 2, i would choose this also.

but normally we not use this setup, cos u'll need to dismantle ur horn switch. the 2nd diagram is possible, however the setup even worse, need to strip igination & horn switch.

 

the easiest setup to do is use the existing horn cables n hook to the circut break of the relay. then the other 2 pt will hook up the horns. do note it's better to put in a fuse btw ur battery n horn.

 

again i dun understand what you are talking...

 

you dun need to dismantle your horn switch to connect to the relay.

 

and there is no circuit breaker in the relay

 

its not "better to put a fuse", but a must to have a fuse before the battery in case of any short circuit and damage your battery

[ulysses_sc]

the diagram in that website is pretty much my first diagram.

 

I DIY the wiring according to the the wiring diagram in the link. So far no problems with the puny 3A battery on my dirt bike after 2 weeks.

 

Maybe something else is draining the battery.

[mechwira]

right, first of all i declare again i only have layman understanding of all this theory. i dun know the details, and i definitely cannot diy any of this stuff, no matter how easy anybody makes it out to be, its beyond me.

 

so, with regards to below:

 

of the 2, i would choose this also.

but normally we not use this setup, cos u'll need to dismantle ur horn switch.

 

again, my diagram is ultra-simplified to merely show wat are the main components in each circuit. its not meant to show physical set-up itself. i assume that in a general sense my diagram is correct, plus it does correspond to the diagram in the website someone shared earlier.

 

at the end of the day, people's opinion here is unlikely the new horn causing the batt drain. i obviously dont know, just that my batt was bought last december, this past monday installed the hella, by end of tuesday i noticed the cranking was slowing down, by thursday evening battery was 'dead-on-arrival'.

[arthur_chan]

again i dun understand what you are talking...

 

you dun need to dismantle your horn switch to connect to the relay.

 

and there is no circuit breaker in the relay

 

its not "better to put a fuse", but a must to have a fuse before the battery in case of any short circuit and damage your battery

 

if u follow according to the diagram, ur hooking up to ur horn switch, thus if u have other designs, pls draw clearer, otherwise i'm seeing it as the relay is hooking up to the horn switch directly. so unless u already know where ur horn switch wiring goes, u will need to strip the switch.

 

the circuit breaker meaning this http://i54.tinypic.com/161ynn4.jpg i dont know in technical terms what u call, but it breaks the circuit if there's no current.

 

a fuse is like insurance, not a must, if u want to risk it. i see no fuse in the diagram.

 

again i stress, i'm following exactly the whole wiring concept according to the diagram. i would say both r workable if they were hook up accordingly, but it would not be an ideal setup. if ur setup is according to the diagram, yes, i would say it might be the cause of ur battery drain, cos ur other components are missing/incomplete.