e-brake at expressway speeds and low siding

[sawfly]

hi all,

 

today i low sided my bike due to my rear wheel locking up during an e-brake.. so i'm trying to learn from my mistakes and improve on the braking itself.. (it's probably my fault that i didnt keep proper following distance even though i was cut off by the vehicle on the left)

 

speaking of losing rear wheel traction and low siding, i saw this online at this link:

http://www.stevemunden.com/sides.htm

 

The high-side, by contrast, results from a loss of traction by the rear wheel, followed by recovery of traction. For street riders, as opposed to racers, it generally arises in a maximum braking situation. In such a situation, when you want all the braking you can get, it's easy to exceed the maximum, that is, to slide one or the other of the tires. What do you do? If the front tire slides, you release the front brake. Quickly! Quite intuitive. But if the rear tire slides, you should stay on the brake and slide it to a stop, contrary to one's instincts.

 

Here's why. Suppose you're driving down the road at 50 and you step hard on the rear brake, locking up the rear tire. It slides. It won't stay in a straight line right behind the front tire, but will fishtail from side to side. Assuming that the road is flat and you're steering straight, it just swishes around behind you. No problem, easy to control, so easy in fact that the previous version of the MSF's beginner course had an exercise devoted to controlling rear-wheel skids. Just keep it locked and slide it to a stop.

 

whats the general opinion of this when u lock up yr rear wheel during e-brake on the expressway? do u risk a high side by releasing the rear pedal pressure or just lay it down and crash like me? *touch wood* of course the best way is to avoid getting into the situation in the first place but i'm curious on what the more seasoned riders think. =D

[pufferfis]

if I were u...I wld press brake lever while kick down 1 gear n release clutch n front brakes n continue until I find back traction n control depending on the situation.pumping the brakes n kicking down the gear 1 by 1 letting the engine brake give u back control n traction n slowing u down prevents fishtailin especially when u sudddenly reduced from high speed to a low speed...I rarely used my rear brakes except when u slowing into a junction...hope it makes sense...especially critical when raining or wet when u can't use the rear brakes at all

[hachi]

Dont lane spit. For me I dont really lane spit on e,way. Both sides of the car are your escape routes. Most bikes cannot out brake a car. I only lane spit at traffic junction where cars are stationary.

Load your front tire and keep a safe a dist is your safer bet. Of course tires and brake condition are very important. I change tires when they are 70% wore. If you are riding sport bikes, then just use front brake. If riding scooter then both brakes. Street bikes depending on its configuration. If street bikes comes with inverted fork and super brake then use front only. Always plan your escape routes, this how I ride...

[kaiq]

Personal experience. When I started riding in the first year I brake and drop bike a few times on expressway. All during rainy days and slow traffic. In the end I realize the problem is with the tires - it's looks good outside, but it was long overdue and has harden outside. As a result as long as ground is wet I have a high chance of lossing control starting from the rear.

 

In summary, check your tires first.

[revhappy]

Dont lane spit. For me I dont really lane spit on e,way. Both sides of the car are your escape routes. Most bikes cannot out brake a car. I only lane spit at traffic junction where cars are stationary.

Load your front tire and keep a safe a dist is your safer bet. Of course tires and brake condition are very important. I change tires when they are 70% wore. If you are riding sport bikes, then just use front brake. If riding scooter then both brakes. Street bikes depending on its configuration. If street bikes comes with inverted fork and super brake then use front only. Always plan your escape routes, this how I ride...

 

Excellent advice

 

In addition to that, when it rains be double or triple more careful. I realize that my brakes are totally ineffective when it rains. I keep really good distance and super alert and really slow cornering without leaning down, just turning handlebar. If you follow this, very low chances of falling and even if you fall, it will be low speed, more chances to come out unscathed.

[sawfly]

thanks for all your replies! ill answer one by one..

 

Personal experience. When I started riding in the first year I brake and drop bike a few times on expressway. All during rainy days and slow traffic. In the end I realize the problem is with the tires - it's looks good outside, but it was long overdue and has harden outside. As a result as long as ground is wet I have a high chance of lossing control starting from the rear.

 

In summary, check your tires first.

 

my tires are new - i just replaced them =D but it make sense!

i use more engine braking when its raining and didnt want to risk skidding on wet surfaces though.. i crashed on a total hot scorching day though =X

 

Dont lane spit. For me I dont really lane spit on e,way. Both sides of the car are your escape routes. Most bikes cannot out brake a car. I only lane spit at traffic junction where cars are stationary.

Load your front tire and keep a safe a dist is your safer bet. Of course tires and brake condition are very important. I change tires when they are 70% wore. If you are riding sport bikes, then just use front brake. If riding scooter then both brakes. Street bikes depending on its configuration. If street bikes comes with inverted fork and super brake then use front only. Always plan your escape routes, this how I ride...

 

i dont like to lane split and in fact on the contrary i avoid lane splitting when i am *not* on the expway since the normal roads tend to be narrower and more unpredictable. when im on expressway the only time i LS is when traffic has started to crawl at 40kmh or less maybe ill start to squeeze..

 

thats not the main reason that i crashed though.. i skidded during an overtaking manoeurve then heng heng the car in front of me i was over taking suddenly cut into my lane.. my fault for not expecting him to suddenly cut me then though =X complacency in not planning an escape route in this case..

 

i ride a phantom.. so what kind of suspension would it have? also perhaps u can explain more on what's loading the front tire?

 

if I were u...I wld press brake lever while kick down 1 gear n release clutch n front brakes n continue until I find back traction n control depending on the situation.pumping the brakes n kicking down the gear 1 by 1 letting the engine brake give u back control n traction n slowing u down prevents fishtailin especially when u sudddenly reduced from high speed to a low speed...I rarely used my rear brakes except when u slowing into a junction...hope it makes sense...especially critical when raining or wet when u can't use the rear brakes at all

 

i didnt realise i could look at it this way! for me the crash happened too fast.. so i wasnt sure if i could even kick down the gear when i fishtailed for maybe a second or so? the next moment i low sided =X

 

i was thinking that what if while i was fishtailing due to rear wheel lock what if i clutch in and release the rear brake pedal at the same time.. would it reduce the chance of me being highsiding (as opposed to just letting go the rear brake pedal and suddenly letting the engine and wheel suddenly gaining traction and throwing me off far far away.. )

 

Excellent advice

 

In addition to that, when it rains be double or triple more careful. I realize that my brakes are totally ineffective when it rains. I keep really good distance and super alert and really slow cornering without leaning down, just turning handlebar. If you follow this, very low chances of falling and even if you fall, it will be low speed, more chances to come out unscathed.

 

would it be correct if i interpreted it as trying to steer by not leaning right? i.e. trying to steer with rear wheel up right and preserving traction instead? (and also not using the push to corner right counter steering technique?)

[hachi]

Excellent advice

 

In addition to that, when it rains be double or triple more careful. I realize that my brakes are totally ineffective when it rains. I keep really good distance and super alert and really slow cornering without leaning down, just turning handlebar. If you follow this, very low chances of falling and even if you fall, it will be low speed, more chances to come out unscathed.

Brake should not be ineffective in the rain. If disc brake sometimes need to drag your brake every few minutes when riding in rain. Check your brake pads. I changed my own pads and brake oil through the years of ridding. Con a few time by shop asking me to change inferior pads where quality ones cost the same.

Can use braking,EBC,SBS, carbon lorine and vesrash. others chapalang brands stay always...

Tires and pads I changed on a 18 months basis whether wore a not??

Sport bike on a yearly basis.

[hachi]

phantom use both brakes as the bike setup doesnt allow aggressive front brake usage.

For example, no matter how strong ur front brake are. Your can never lift your rear in mid air. The tire wold just lock and skip.

Sport bikes however comes with very strong front sus, brake setup and the chassic to handle the load which and can load the front to more than 100%. So u can brake 100% using just the front.

In rain, anticipate be smooth, imagine your are invisible to all road users. Stop if too heavy under the shelter, no point riding if visibility are compromise.

[Jehuty]

hi all,

 

today i low sided my bike due to my rear wheel locking up during an e-brake.. so i'm trying to learn from my mistakes and improve on the braking itself.. (it's probably my fault that i didnt keep proper following distance even though i was cut off by the vehicle on the left)

 

speaking of losing rear wheel traction and low siding, i saw this online at this link:

http://www.stevemunden.com/sides.htm

 

 

 

whats the general opinion of this when u lock up yr rear wheel during e-brake on the expressway? do u risk a high side by releasing the rear pedal pressure or just lay it down and crash like me? *touch wood* of course the best way is to avoid getting into the situation in the first place but i'm curious on what the more seasoned riders think. =D

 

Don't think so much, tap your front brakes, down gear as well, I rather wear out the clutch. Use all braking power you can have...safely. Anyway, anticipation is more important. In rain, I ride conservatively.

[sawfly]

Don't think so much, tap your front brakes, down gear as well, I rather wear out the clutch. Use all braking power you can have...safely. Anyway, anticipation is more important. In rain, I ride conservatively.

 

agree.. safety net is still better den getting engaged in this situation.. just a tech question: why kick down down gear without clutching will wear out the clutch? i thought the clutch will be still engaged when this happens? or is it forced to disengaged? i thought that will only cause shock to transmission and didnt think anything much about the clutch..

[sawfly]

Brake should not be ineffective in the rain. If disc brake sometimes need to drag your brake every few minutes when riding in rain. Check your brake pads. I changed my own pads and brake oil through the years of ridding. Con a few time by shop asking me to change inferior pads where quality ones cost the same.

Can use braking,EBC,SBS, carbon lorine and vesrash. others chapalang brands stay always...

Tires and pads I changed on a 18 months basis whether wore a not??

Sport bike on a yearly basis.

 

eh why need to drag brakes abit every few minutes in rain? i presume is to clear the water?

[Sharkboy]

eh why need to drag brakes abit every few minutes in rain? i presume is to clear the water?

 

yes bro, i too presume it to clear the water within that area. anyways ride safe dude.

[Tachnicolour]

i was thinking that what if while i was fishtailing due to rear wheel lock what if i clutch in and release the rear brake pedal at the same time.. would it reduce the chance of me being highsiding (as opposed to just letting go the rear brake pedal and suddenly letting the engine and wheel suddenly gaining traction and throwing me off far far away.. )

 

From what I understand, essentially once the rear has gone out, allowing it to regain forward traction rapidly is generally a bad idea. If the rear wheel is allowed to spin up to road speed, it will try to come in line with direction of travel. Or, that the bike is rotating around the re-found rear pivot point. Not entirely sure of which is the exact action. Just to say, the violent transit is what throws you off.

 

Don't regain traction of rear quickly. Lowside might be preferable. Then again in Singapore, with kerbs, railing posts, other vehicles in close attendance, it's even better to not get yourself into such a situation you'd need to ebrake at highway speeds!

[sawfly]

yes bro, i too presume it to clear the water within that area. anyways ride safe dude.

 

yup! ride to survive and be alive! =D

 

 

 

 

 

From what I understand, essentially once the rear has gone out, allowing it to regain forward traction rapidly is generally a bad idea. If the rear wheel is allowed to spin up to road speed, it will try to come in line with direction of travel. Or, that the bike is rotating around the re-found rear pivot point. Not entirely sure of which is the exact action. Just to say, the violent transit is what throws you off.

 

Don't regain traction of rear quickly. Lowside might be preferable. Then again in Singapore, with kerbs, railing posts, other vehicles in close attendance, it's even better to not get yourself into such a situation you'd need to ebrake at highway speeds!

 

ups for yr explanation! exactly what I'm looking for an answer.. and yes better not to get into such situations in the first place since may not hv time and distance.. I'm learning to anticipate more!

[Jehuty]

agree.. safety net is still better den getting engaged in this situation.. just a tech question: why kick down down gear without clutching will wear out the clutch? i thought the clutch will be still engaged when this happens? or is it forced to disengaged? i thought that will only cause shock to transmission and didnt think anything much about the clutch..

 

I mean as in gear down, release clutch, it will put more strain on your clutch plates, your gearbox etc, in a nutshell, use engine braking, lots of it. For me in the rain, I rely more on engine braking, tapping my clutch rather than my front brakes. Sorry I wasn't so definitive with the technical terms, am new rider so I'm just sharing what I've experienced so far.

[Jehuty]

yes bro, i too presume it to clear the water within that area. anyways ride safe dude.

 

Clear water, heat up the brake fluid, if im not wrong

[sawfly]

Clear water, heat up the brake fluid, if im not wrong

 

Eh why need to heat up the brake fluid? Its temperature sensitive with respective to braking power?

[SV650]

Hi TS,

 

Try to use a combination of front & rear brakes to slow down. More of the front brake, as most mentioned. You will be surprise how much of baking power you can have on the front brakes. Important thing, when bike fishtail due to wheel lock, most of the time, it's recoverable. Just relax, try not to be panic and ease off the rear brake just a little bit. The best is if you can find a place to practice (jam your rear brake hard) and get use to fishtailing. It's not that scary once you get the hang of it.

 

Another thing to take note. It's a good practice to drop gear as you e-brake. But if you drop gear too fast, then the bike may also fishtail due to the engine trying to slow down the rotation of the rear wheel. Of course, that is the theory part. You need to get the feel or experience of it so as to judge now fast in dropping gear that will result in fish tailing. Generally speaking, this is usually more obvious on bigger cc bikes.

 

Do check your brake pads regularly, replace your brake fluid periodically (change once the brake fluid becomes kopi-O color) and service your brake calipers. The condition of your tires also plays a part on your braking performance.

 

The paintings on the road (road markings) also has lesser grip as compare to the road. It's gonna be more challenging if you need to e-brake when riding over the patches of paintings.

 

Lastly, if you read articles on track riding, not all techniques for track racing applies to daily riding as the conditions varies between these two.

Edited October 15, 2012 by SV650

[SV650]

agree.. safety net is still better den getting engaged in this situation.. just a tech question: why kick down down gear without clutching will wear out the clutch? i thought the clutch will be still engaged when this happens? or is it forced to disengaged? i thought that will only cause shock to transmission and didnt think anything much about the clutch..

Gear shifting can be done without clutching in. There's a technique to it.

[sawfly]

Hi TS,

 

Try to use a combination of front & rear brakes to slow down. More of the front brake, as most mentioned. You will be surprise how much of baking power you can have on the front brakes. Important thing, when bike fishtail due to wheel lock, most of the time, it's recoverable. Just relax, try not to be panic and ease off the rear brake just a little bit. The best is if you can find a place to practice (jam your rear brake hard) and get use to fishtailing. It's not that scary once you get the hang of it.

 

Another thing to take note. It's a good practice to drop gear as you e-brake. But if you drop gear too fast, then the bike may also fishtail due to the engine trying to slow down the rotation of the rear wheel. Of course, that is the theory part. You need to get the feel or experience of it so as to judge now fast in dropping gear that will result in fish tailing. Generally speaking, this is usually more obvious on bigger cc bikes.

 

Do check your brake pads regularly, replace your brake fluid periodically (change once the brake fluid becomes kopi-O color) and service your brake calipers. The condition of your tires also plays a part on your braking performance.

 

The paintings on the road (road markings) also has lesser grip as compare to the road. It's gonna be more challenging if you need to e-brake when riding over the patches of paintings.

 

Lastly, if you read articles on track riding, not all techniques for track racing applies to daily riding as the conditions varies between these two.

 

thanks for the advice! i think i need to change fluid and bleed the brake fluid lines because of this..not too sure if this led to my rear brake lock previously..

 

i supposed u referred to gear shifting without clutching in by just closing the throttle with pressure on the shift lever?

[sawfly]

dbl post paiseh....

[SV650]

Sawfly,

 

Bleeding is done when there is air trap in your brake line. This will result in spongy feeling when you brake. It doesn't result in wheel lock thou. Still, get rid of the air if you find yoyour brake feels spongy. Get a reliable mechanic to service your bike.

 

As for gear shift without clutching, you are half right.

[Tachnicolour]

thanks for the advice! i think i need to change fluid and bleed the brake fluid lines because of this..not too sure if this led to my rear brake lock previously..

 

i supposed u referred to gear shifting without clutching in by just closing the throttle with pressure on the shift lever?

That would be for shifting up.

 

For downshifting, you'd need to blip the throttle, or crack it open quickly while shifting down. To bring engine RPMs to match gear-rpm induced by rear wheel speed. This is trickier to get. Depending on how optimal/non-optimal your coordination is, could possibly lead to premature wear.

 

As mentioned also, braking front-rear, do note that some bikes especially cruisers fare decently well with rear-braking. Lower centre of gravity plus longer wheelbase makes the forward pivot around the front wheel less noticeable. More weight on rear tyre allows it to be used for longer under hardbraking before it loses traction.

 

Some data if you're interested.

 

http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/technical/JAN06Pindx1.pdf

http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/technical/JAN06Pindx2.pdf

http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/technical/JAN06Pindx3.pdf

 

Note the 60-0mph (approx 100kmph-0) stopping distances. The Harley V-Rod is one of the top 10 in short stopping distances.

 

Of course, take it all with a pinch of salt. Who knows if the testers were one and the same, or if some braking ape was able to max out the brakes on the V-rod and a wussy was at the controls of the sportsbikes eh?

 

[SV650]

Tach,

 

You pijia lobang so fast. Thought I can get him buy me kopi then I share with sawfly.

[Tachnicolour]

Tach,

 

You pijia lobang so fast. Thought I can get him buy me kopi then I share with sawfly.

Ai seh, otang you one kopi! or we do it govt style. give the information first then charge after the fact. haha.