Learner questions of downshifting/cornering - practice lesson #1

[liuhao]

Just enrolled in 2B course @ SSDC. Right now toward the end of practice lesson one. However I got a few questions/issues I dont have answers even from instructor. Hope can enlighten me:

1. When I am approaching corner on gear 3, I am instructed to down shift to gear 2 before the cornering, and with throttle close during the cornering.

However, it seems no matter how fast I am on gear 3, once downshift to gear 2, due to the strong engine break, the bike slow down significantly and does not have enough speed and momentum to complete the turning. I still have to open throttle a bit during mid turn. I have tried to release clutch slowly but the bike still slow down too much.

2. When I open throttle on gear 2 during mid turn, no matter how gentle I turn the throttle, the bike always jerk. The sudden jerk and "rush" forward is very unpleasent and also compromise the stability of my turning. I have tried to turn very very slowly. Maybe helps a bit. But the acceleration would be too slow.

I have been driving manual cars for some year so gear shifting is not new to me. I used to manage very well. But seems bike is a different story.

[adesmond2]

56 minutes ago, liuhao said:

Just enrolled in 2B course @ SSDC. Right now toward the end of practice lesson one. However I got a few questions/issues I dont have answers even from instructor. Hope can enlighten me:

1. When I am approaching corner on gear 3, I am instructed to down shift to gear 2 before the cornering, and with throttle close during the cornering.

 

However, it seems no matter how fast I am on gear 3, once downshift to gear 2, due to the strong engine break, the bike slow down significantly and does not have enough speed and momentum to complete the turning. I still have to open throttle a bit during mid turn. I have tried to release clutch slowly but the bike still slow down too much.

2. When I open throttle on gear 2 during mid turn, no matter how gentle I turn the throttle, the bike always jerk. The sudden jerk and "rush" forward is very unpleasent and also compromise the stability of my turning. I have tried to turn very very slowly. Maybe helps a bit. But the acceleration would be too slow.

I have been driving manual cars for some year so gear shifting is not new to me. I used to manage very well. But seems bike is a different story.

Hihi.. just my experiences of these

1 . Yes.. need to change gear 2 in any school when approaching a cornering.. gear 3 will be too "fast" for you.. or engine will start to choke if you maintain in low RPM.

2. hmmm.. if it jerk or choke.. high possiblilty not fast enough.. , drop to gear 1 if required.. Just play around that few gears.. I can't recall 2B bikes training school but I remember it's usually in bad condition.. so throttle more (if you feel comfortable) or just maintain half clutch in to prevent the "choking/jerking sound".

Just remember, most likely too slow and not enough fuel.. so release your clutch faster after every gear change.. (due to engine braking)

[shiba2b]

12 hours ago, liuhao said:

Just enrolled in 2B course @ SSDC. Right now toward the end of practice lesson one. However I got a few questions/issues I dont have answers even from instructor. Hope can enlighten me:

1. When I am approaching corner on gear 3, I am instructed to down shift to gear 2 before the cornering, and with throttle close during the cornering.

However, it seems no matter how fast I am on gear 3, once downshift to gear 2, due to the strong engine break, the bike slow down significantly and does not have enough speed and momentum to complete the turning. I still have to open throttle a bit during mid turn. I have tried to release clutch slowly but the bike still slow down too much.

2. When I open throttle on gear 2 during mid turn, no matter how gentle I turn the throttle, the bike always jerk. The sudden jerk and "rush" forward is very unpleasent and also compromise the stability of my turning. I have tried to turn very very slowly. Maybe helps a bit. But the acceleration would be too slow.

I have been driving manual cars for some year so gear shifting is not new to me. I used to manage very well. But seems bike is a different story.

if the SSDC bike condition is anything like the ones in BBDC, you will find a lot of peculiarities are due to the individual bike due to wear n tear.

also, you will likely find that different instructors may give u more information. 

it's good that you are experienced with driving manual car. Helps a great deal in understanding shifting and feeling of the bike. Just need to get used to fine motor controls of the hands rather than the feet (except rear brake, which should be easy for you)

1. what kind of turn is this? if a long one, might need some "maintenance throttle" to maintain speed. Abt 3-5% throttle opening. Perhaps as the class progresses, this turn will be taken in gear 3 instead? lesson 1 is really focused on fundamentals. For reference, a short tight corner like crank/S course, we use gear 2. 

2. yes this jerk is common. Need to practice slow and smooth turning of the grip and only turn it a tiny amount in corners if necessary to maintain the required speed as per #1. Different bikes will react differently, so need to anticipate and get used to it.

later you will practice more clutch control, which helps with the jerk issue.

relax and have fun

[Siphon]

On 6/23/2023 at 10:01 AM, liuhao said:

Just enrolled in 2B course @ SSDC. Right now toward the end of practice lesson one. However I got a few questions/issues I dont have answers even from instructor. Hope can enlighten me:

 

1. When I am approaching corner on gear 3, I am instructed to down shift to gear 2 before the cornering, and with throttle close during the cornering.

 

However, it seems no matter how fast I am on gear 3, once downshift to gear 2, due to the strong engine break, the bike slow down significantly and does not have enough speed and momentum to complete the turning. I still have to open throttle a bit during mid turn. I have tried to release clutch slowly but the bike still slow down too much.

2. When I open throttle on gear 2 during mid turn, no matter how gentle I turn the throttle, the bike always jerk. The sudden jerk and "rush" forward is very unpleasent and also compromise the stability of my turning. I have tried to turn very very slowly. Maybe helps a bit. But the acceleration would be too slow.

 

I have been driving manual cars for some year so gear shifting is not new to me. I used to manage very well. But seems bike is a different story.

The key here is Clutch. 

Don't throw the clutch like how you would be shifting gears in a car from gear 3 to 2. Cause the car has alot more mass and engine braking isn't that effective as on a bike as you have experienced already. 

So from gear 3. 

Close throttle -> Clutch in -> Shift to 2 gear -> Release clutch Slowly -> feel the biting point -> HOLD at a little more than Biting point -> Throttle up. 

For ALL Bikes unless auto gears... gear 1 & 2 are very torquey. So you need to hold the Clutch to smoothen out the throttling. Even if you 100% Throttle... with the clutch at biting point... it wiil still be smooth

The key is clutch. It will always be for all the slow speed courses. 

And oh... Don't LEAN into the turn please... at slow speed you're suppose to be turning the handle bar to turn the bike... Not lean into it yet... if you lean the bike at less than 20kmh.. yup. You'll surely drop your foot and move on or just drop the bike. To get the bike Upright, throttle up. Bikes are made to stay upright at higher speed. 

[liuhao]

On 6/24/2023 at 10:22 AM, Siphon said:

The key here is Clutch. 

Don't throw the clutch like how you would be shifting gears in a car from gear 3 to 2. Cause the car has alot more mass and engine braking isn't that effective as on a bike as you have experienced already. 

So from gear 3. 

Close throttle -> Clutch in -> Shift to 2 gear -> Release clutch Slowly -> feel the biting point -> HOLD at a little more than Biting point -> Throttle up. 

For ALL Bikes unless auto gears... gear 1 & 2 are very torquey. So you need to hold the Clutch to smoothen out the throttling. Even if you 100% Throttle... with the clutch at biting point... it wiil still be smooth

The key is clutch. It will always be for all the slow speed courses. 

And oh... Don't LEAN into the turn please... at slow speed you're suppose to be turning the handle bar to turn the bike... Not lean into it yet... if you lean the bike at less than 20kmh.. yup. You'll surely drop your foot and move on or just drop the bike. To get the bike Upright, throttle up. Bikes are made to stay upright at higher speed. 

Will try to use clutch with gear 2 in next session.

[liuhao]

On 6/23/2023 at 11:04 PM, shiba2b said:

if the SSDC bike condition is anything like the ones in BBDC, you will find a lot of peculiarities are due to the individual bike due to wear n tear.

also, you will likely find that different instructors may give u more information. 

it's good that you are experienced with driving manual car. Helps a great deal in understanding shifting and feeling of the bike. Just need to get used to fine motor controls of the hands rather than the feet (except rear brake, which should be easy for you)

1. what kind of turn is this? if a long one, might need some "maintenance throttle" to maintain speed. Abt 3-5% throttle opening. Perhaps as the class progresses, this turn will be taken in gear 3 instead? lesson 1 is really focused on fundamentals. For reference, a short tight corner like crank/S course, we use gear 2. 

2. yes this jerk is common. Need to practice slow and smooth turning of the grip and only turn it a tiny amount in corners if necessary to maintain the required speed as per #1. Different bikes will react differently, so need to anticipate and get used to it.

later you will practice more clutch control, which helps with the jerk issue.

relax and have fun

The bikes are not in good condition in SSDC either. I remember when I was in BBDC to get my class 3. All honda civic at that time had very rusty gas pedal which made acceleration very jerky. Until one day I was assigned to a private instructor. His car was super smooth. He said BBDC cars are "public toilet" so what else can expect. Owed 5 cars since graduated from BBDC, new or used, never experienced rusty pedal again.

On 6/23/2023 at 10:57 AM, adesmond2 said:

Hihi.. just my experiences of these

1 . Yes.. need to change gear 2 in any school when approaching a cornering.. gear 3 will be too "fast" for you.. or engine will start to choke if you maintain in low RPM.

2. hmmm.. if it jerk or choke.. high possiblilty not fast enough.. , drop to gear 1 if required.. Just play around that few gears.. I can't recall 2B bikes training school but I remember it's usually in bad condition.. so throttle more (if you feel comfortable) or just maintain half clutch in to prevent the "choking/jerking sound".

Just remember, most likely too slow and not enough fuel.. so release your clutch faster after every gear change.. (due to engine braking)

The jerk happened when I was on gear 2, from closed throttle position to open throttle, no matter how slow i roll, there is a jerk when forward power is in place. heard this is normal maybe due to transmission or chain got forward force.

[adesmond2]

On 6/27/2023 at 6:46 PM, liuhao said:

The bikes are not in good condition in SSDC either. I remember when I was in BBDC to get my class 3. All honda civic at that time had very rusty gas pedal which made acceleration very jerky. Until one day I was assigned to a private instructor. His car was super smooth. He said BBDC cars are "public toilet" so what else can expect. Owed 5 cars since graduated from BBDC, new or used, never experienced rusty pedal again.

The jerk happened when I was on gear 2, from closed throttle position to open throttle, no matter how slow i roll, there is a jerk when forward power is in place. heard this is normal maybe due to transmission or chain got forward force.

do keep us posted once you finish your lesson ya..  

[shiba2b]

On 6/27/2023 at 6:46 PM, liuhao said:

 

The jerk happened when I was on gear 2, from closed throttle position to open throttle, no matter how slow i roll, there is a jerk when forward power is in place. heard this is normal maybe due to transmission or chain got forward force.

when i started riding after getting my 2B, when going from gear 1 to gear 2, i would half clutch while starting to open throttle. Esp on a ktm duke 200. Too torquey. But i'm not sure if SSDC/TP will approve of this in school for normal riding. Using half clutch to control slow speed movement in circuit is part of the later modules. 

[Siphon]

On 6/27/2023 at 6:46 PM, liuhao said:

The bikes are not in good condition in SSDC either. I remember when I was in BBDC to get my class 3. All honda civic at that time had very rusty gas pedal which made acceleration very jerky. Until one day I was assigned to a private instructor. His car was super smooth. He said BBDC cars are "public toilet" so what else can expect. Owed 5 cars since graduated from BBDC, new or used, never experienced rusty pedal again.

The jerk happened when I was on gear 2, from closed throttle position to open throttle, no matter how slow i roll, there is a jerk when forward power is in place. heard this is normal maybe due to transmission or chain got forward force.

 

If thats the issue then maybe you gotta look at your throttle control don't grip it. You're suppose to hold it. kinda like playing badminton? Most people GRAB the handle... but you're suppose to hold it with the fingers so you have more control.  this is a good video with lot of examples. 

 

[liuhao]

12 hours ago, Siphon said:

If thats the issue then maybe you gotta look at your throttle control don't grip it. You're suppose to hold it. kinda like playing badminton? Most people GRAB the handle... but you're suppose to hold it with the fingers so you have more control.  this is a good video with lot of examples. 

Thank you. Think need more practice and experiment on this. Perhaps use more left hand/arm and less right hand for direction control so that right hand can focus more on fine control of throttle.

Managed to pass lesson 1 yesterday. There was slightly improvement on throttle control or perhaps I just got used to the slight jerk (from closed throttle position to open throttle) and able to anticipate/manage it. I noticed there was one short girl who controlled throttle exceptional well in my group than all other guys. it's kind humiliating but apparently this is not about strength.

[adesmond2]

11 minutes ago, liuhao said:

Thank you. Think need more practice and experiment on this. Perhaps use more left hand/arm and less right hand for direction control so that right hand can focus more on fine control of throttle.

Managed to pass lesson 1 yesterday. There was slightly improvement on throttle control or perhaps I just got used to the slight jerk (from closed throttle position to open throttle) and able to anticipate/manage it. I noticed there was one short girl who controlled throttle exceptional well in my group than all other guys. it's kind humiliating but apparently this is not about strength.

great to know that you pass L1! still a great effort.. I know a female friend of mine who never pass her L1.. for at least 5 times.. then she give up and never attempt it anymore..

I guess it's all about experience and instinct..  Maybe that girl got ride in some country when she travel.. or own a electric scooter.. those that need to twist..   

[liuhao]

I tried L1 7 times before finally pass it, although I know its still not perfect.

Have to say it's not quite what I expected from the beginning. Firstly, I thought with my 5+ years bicycle riding experience under all conditions and 10+ years driving manual cars, it should be fairly easy to handle a motocycle and get through all the lessons quick. It isnt the case. I think the main reason is I under estimated the weight of the bike and way to control it. Secondly, it was not as comfortable as I thought due to the bumpy road, hot sun, engine heat and safety concerns. At least up to now, I have not got to enjoy riding it, surprisingly. I guess there has to be much hardness before coming to that. LOL

One of the mistakes so far is I book the lesson too frequently. I have been trying to take a lesson every 2 days (mostly evening lessons) and hope to get it done quick. But I found I was too exausted and could not manage well. Sometimes I got tired and sleepy as soon as sit on a bike. Will have to slow down to 2 lessons a week at most.

Anyway, no choice but to continue. no pain no gain. I am already planning my first bike once I pass 2B, maybe a CB150R first. LOL

[shiba2b]

22 hours ago, liuhao said:

I tried L1 7 times before finally pass it, although I know its still not perfect.

Have to say it's not quite what I expected from the beginning. Firstly, I thought with my 5+ years bicycle riding experience under all conditions and 10+ years driving manual cars, it should be fairly easy to handle a motocycle and get through all the lessons quick. It isnt the case. I think the main reason is I under estimated the weight of the bike and way to control it. Secondly, it was not as comfortable as I thought due to the bumpy road, hot sun, engine heat and safety concerns. At least up to now, I have not got to enjoy riding it, surprisingly. I guess there has to be much hardness before coming to that. LOL

One of the mistakes so far is I book the lesson too frequently. I have been trying to take a lesson every 2 days (mostly evening lessons) and hope to get it done quick. But I found I was too exausted and could not manage well. Sometimes I got tired and sleepy as soon as sit on a bike. Will have to slow down to 2 lessons a week at most.

Anyway, no choice but to continue. no pain no gain. I am already planning my first bike once I pass 2B, maybe a CB150R first. LOL

i had booked a 2B session on a weekday, last session for the day. The circuit was nice and clear of cars, so we were riding more smoothly. Much cooler than day session too.

however i was so mentally drained during the session (after a working day) that i failed the session. Still, a good learning experience. i never booked that late night slot again.

i found riding a motorbike a lot more physical than driving a car. Also mentally taxing especially when new to it. That adds to the risk when riding outside (after getting licensed.) 

CB150R is a nice compact, decent handling bike for the road. Light and easy to maneuver. So much nicer to ride than the school bikes lol

keep going - it'll get easier with some practice. 

[Siphon]

On 7/4/2023 at 3:19 PM, liuhao said:

I tried L1 7 times before finally pass it, although I know its still not perfect.

Hehe... as long as you get the the CR portion you'll have more freedom to do what you want to do in the circuit. You'll be able to understand the bike more once you can have the freedom to do whatever you want on the bike instead of following instructions. 

The next trick you'll want to know is GRIPPING the fuel tank tightly with your thigh... You'll need to get use to that for plank and all other moves on the bike when you want to become "one" with the bike. leaving the thighs loose makes controlling the bike alot harder. So you can start practicing it in your mind before going for your lesson 2. 

Relax more and have fun on the bike when you're on it. Being tense makes things worst.

[Dylannn]

Hi there are actually many ways to eliminate that “jerky” feel you get when downshifting from 3 to 2 to 1. The foundations you need would be clutch play and throttle control for basics :). When you switch to gear 2 from 3, you will have to release clutch slowly while braking smoothly (not too hard and not too less). Too much braking will cause the rpm to drop too much and as your clutch enters the friction zone the engine brake kicks in and due to low rpm on that gear that you are in, you will feel the engine brake quite strong. Too low rpm makes the bike feel like it’s going to cut off power thus the “jerky” feeling.
 

Another method would be match your speed to the gear you want to go in. An example would be from gear 3 you are at around 30km-40km/hr it is best to switch back to gear 2 at around 20-25km/hr. This will make the engine brake feel weaker. I like to teach my friend that for  a beginner each gear he/she should shift up every 10km/hr and the opposite for downshifting.  This method will vary on your bikes for 2B it’s still alright but as you change to class 2A onwards it won’t really work anymore unless you have slipper clutch.

 

The other method is rev matching but it’s an advanced technique and you will have to get used to control of bike, throttle control, clutch control, braking and other stuff first before you should learn this technique as it’s actually not important but it just makes you feel “good”  can try ask your instructor see if they want teach you or not. As my instructor taught me that technique during my RR .
 

These are some techniques I can think of at the moment if any more comes in mind I will add it on a later time. Hope this can help you feel more confident during your cornering for your practicals 

It is very normal for gear 2 and 1 to have heavy engine braking every time you close throttle at a low rpm and speed so don’t worry about it  You will feel the difference when you close the throttle and open at a higher gear and speed like gear 4-6. 

Also try not to think about how others are doing in your lessons just focus on yourself  If you keep having thoughts about how others are doing better than you, you will be slightly distracted and potentially do even worse than your normal. Nothing is more important than having fun while learning something new and there is no shame in being worse than others at it too!

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Dylannn