All about Corners, Counter steer, counter measures

[gnayed]

Haha.. I guess the bottomline is just to leave a safety clearance when riding on the road.

[w1n6]

Originally posted by Pplater@May 01, 2007 10:50 pm

I think its funny because I've been cornering in those 270 degress flyovers between expressways and never got to to do hard braking mid corner for almost a year already such that i forgot what its like to do so.

Few of the big radius entrance and exit in Singapore are reducing radius corners (Worst corner next to off camber corner). It can be difficult to judge by looking at the exit point... best to learn a good way to reduce speed confidently during mid-corner.

[Hong88]

Originally posted by Pplater@May 01, 2007 01:36 pm

Hmm... I believe you are riding a big bike? Yeah, big bikes will stand almost automatically if you brake the front hard during corners. Had a friend on big bike with inline braking grabbed the front, and whole bike stood up as you mentioned. Big bikes tend to be heavier and will upright itself, with more weight transfer to the front allowing more braking before losing traction, but small bikes that are lighter will have the front lose traction more quickly without first uprighting itself unless the rider upright the bike first. Its usually grab and kerbummmmm..

 

Also, for small bikes, even in straights, rear braking does not really shift the weight forward much as compared to class 2. Small bikes have lighter weight, and the posture of say, a class 2B sportbikes is nothing like class 2 sports type of forward-leaning posture. The weight distribution is more to the rear comparatively between a NSR and a GSX? Most postures of class 2B will have more weight sitting on the rear, which makes it less likely to lift up, but big bikes are still heavier and allows more braking without losing grip? And their more powerful brakes also cause the bike to shift its weight forward more quickly with either brakes. Small bike however, can't really feel much of weight shifting forward with rear brakes, even if you jam them on straights and control the fistail. Heavier riders may be able to rear brake more without locking the rear. All these this may make rear braking or trail braking a somewhat easier technique in corners, nothing like the real thing on a big bike which takes more skill to control and carries more risk. Not sure what I'm saying correct not... Still L plate on these things

 

Hmm... The reccomended technique for rear braking in a corner would be to gently depress the rear brake and hold? I've always been tapping on the rear on the rare occasion cars in front start to slow down mid corner and engine braking is insufficient.

im riding sp and i love to corner.. anyway i did try.. when corner i tap on my front brake and it does bring me to a straight position.. try many many times..and im wondering why everytime ppl saw when cornering dun use front brake..use rear brake only.. if front brake can lift me up back to straight position then... ?

 

any1 pro on this please advise eh

[ANR Impex]

Originally posted by w1n6@May 02, 2007 07:45 am

Few of the big radius entrance and exit in Singapore are reducing radius corners (Worst corner next to off camber corner). It can be difficult to judge by looking at the exit point... best to learn a good way to reduce speed confidently during mid-corner.

Couldn't agree more. HOV is to spot potential obstacles/danger, but that's half the battle. If you don't have the confidence to execute the emergency maneuver, you're either going to target fixate and run into the object or run wide into the barrier. Just like they teach you to actually ebrake in riding school, not just advocate riding slowly to avoid even trying it completely.

 

On a safety note, you really need to take it gradually when learning to brake in corners. Different machines can be vastly different when it comes to tendancy to standup and will need different degree of modulation and brake pressure to come to a stop while maintaining directional control in a turn. The front brake is always something you should gently increase pressure.

[Pplater]

Yup Impex, couldn't agree with you more. Good to have the skills as backup. Having them increases the reserve for anything that comes along in the corner.

 

W1n6, eh.. will you seriously practice braking in corners? I mean like entering a corner with reserve and nothing calls for reduction of speed mid corner but brake for fun to practice, or eh.. enter it faster and lose speed mid way? I haven't tried these stuffs yet.

 

Hong88, the reason why people say use rear dun use front is because when the front tyre loses traction and slides, most of the time you go down. Front slides are very very difficult to recover, unless you are a track regular, and even MotoGP racer often fail to recover. Rear slides are more recoverable because it will tend to sort itself out, after you release the rear brake. A highside slide occurs as the wheel attempts to get back into a single line, as mentioned by Strong Eagle in one of the earlier posts in this thread, but this is more applicable to races. In public road riding, if can highside, well... you must be one hell of a fast rider into corners.

 

Standing the bike up from using front brakes will also change your line, and take you towards the road barrier or divider, not exactly where you want to go to mid corner eh?

 

And lastly, try funny things in PG. Way too many variables on public roads, and a sure way to give a bad image to bikers being daredevil stuntmen with no respect for the law and safety. Cheers

[gnayed]

Originally posted by Pplater@May 02, 2007 05:19 pm

In public road riding, if can highside, well... you must be one hell of a fast rider into corners.

You don't need more than 50km/h to flip a highside.

[w1n6]

Originally posted by Pplater@May 02, 2007 05:19 pm

W1n6, eh.. will you seriously practice braking in corners? I mean like entering a corner with reserve and nothing calls for reduction of speed mid corner but brake for fun to practice, or eh.. enter it faster and lose speed mid way? I haven't tried these stuffs yet.

 

 

And lastly, try funny things in PG. Way too many variables on public roads, and a sure way to give a bad image to bikers being daredevil stuntmen with no respect for the law and safety. Cheers

I do but in a big open carpark (At one of Loyang Industrial Park at night when traffic is very low). E brakes, countersteer flip flop on a straight line and figure 8 from small radius to bigger radius than braking while doing figure 8. Max is about 15min and leave the place eveytime, people may think I'm doing stunt...

[w1n6]

Originally posted by gnayed@May 02, 2007 06:06 pm

You don't need more than 50km/h to flip a highside.

Agree. Even at lower speed the gyro force can flip the rear up but can be recoverable (Own Experience).

[boofeng]

wow 50 km/h can highside already. useful info. but would depend on how much out of line also right? maybe because i ride a very heavy bike i've had slips due to wet roads at 40-50kmph before but it regripped without problems almost immediately as i reduce throttle and lean out more. maybe i got lucky. =x

 

wow w1n6. amazing. you all are very brave folks. can i go watch you practice some day? ;p i want to learn to use brakes.. i've always been very bad at it because i'm afraid of the consequences. probably will practice at track next time when i have a more suitable bike.

[hachi]

Trail braking, but practice at the track first.

 

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/RSS/146_030..._trail_braking/

[gnayed]

Originally posted by boofeng@May 03, 2007 06:23 pm

i've had slips due to wet roads at 40-50kmph before but it regripped without problems almost immediately as i reduce throttle and lean out more.

I assume you slipped and regained traction from a power-slide / overpower / over-spinning? IMO, those are much easier to recover than slips from a rear lockup.

[w1n6]

Originally posted by hachi@May 03, 2007 07:40 pm

Trail braking, but practice at the track first.

 

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/RSS/146_030..._trail_braking/

Great info for late braking into corner.

[boofeng]

Originally posted by gnayed@May 03, 2007 08:09 pm

I assume you slipped and regained traction from a power-slide / overpower / over-spinning? IMO, those are much easier to recover than slips from a rear lockup.

yah those were all cases of over-spinning due to changing traction over the wet road.

 

i think i see what you're getting at. thanks for the input.

[CivicR]

Hi everyone, does the weight of the rider also had any effect on the steering?

[Pplater]

50 can highside... Wa... I guess technically possible if you jam hard enough and panick and release too late resulting in a big flip due to a large misalignment. Sheez... Rare but possible then. Sheesh... I should look for a secluded place to practice to some stunts

[Pplater]

Would like to share a recent experience, may be relevant only for 2b bikes. I recently had my rear brake pump stripped and serviced to be cleared of sludge. NSRR. After reassembly, the rear brake pedal allows me to depress the brakes more, almost fully down without locking. Meaning there is less braking power when stepped halfway down as compared to before. I tried jam braking the rear, totally stepping it down, and only one or two out of ten times it locked, depending on how fast i jam it down and at waht speed. So i concluded in the past the rear brakes were set too "tight", such that when i depressed halfway or three quarter way down it jams and locks. I feel that the new setting is good in emergency situations. The most experienced riders with many many years experience may also possibly slam the rear three quarter way down or halfway down with front applied. If the rear setting is somewhat lossened, such that you have more freeplay to use the entire range it could improve your braking control rather than make the rear brakes a next to useless thing in an emergency? I still have full braking power, but it is distributed over the whole range of depression of rear brakes, rather than only half the range that can be depressed.

 

My current setting is something like 100km/h jam it 4/5 down it won;t lock but can feel almost about there. Not too bad. Locking in an emergency force a rider to release brakes and reapply them, losing precious milleseconds in braking which may decide whether one hit or misses Suggestions gentlemen? I suspect big bikes dun have this type of problems.

[ANR Impex]

Would like to share a recent experience, may be relevant only for 2b bikes. I recently had my rear brake pump stripped and serviced to be cleared of sludge. NSRR. After reassembly, the rear brake pedal allows me to depress the brakes more, almost fully down without locking. Meaning there is less braking power when stepped halfway down as compared to before. I tried jam braking the rear, totally stepping it down, and only one or two out of ten times it locked, depending on how fast i jam it down and at waht speed. So i concluded in the past the rear brakes were set too "tight", such that when i depressed halfway or three quarter way down it jams and locks. I feel that the new setting is good in emergency situations. The most experienced riders with many many years experience may also possibly slam the rear three quarter way down or halfway down with front applied. If the rear setting is somewhat lossened, such that you have more freeplay to use the entire range it could improve your braking control rather than make the rear brakes a next to useless thing in an emergency? I still have full braking power, but it is distributed over the whole range of depression of rear brakes, rather than only half the range that can be depressed.

 

My current setting is something like 100km/h jam it 4/5 down it won;t lock but can feel almost about there. Not too bad. Locking in an emergency force a rider to release brakes and reapply them, losing precious milleseconds in braking which may decide whether one hit or misses Suggestions gentlemen? I suspect big bikes dun have this type of problems.

 

Making a habit to use the rear brakes to stop brings a whole host of unnecessary problems in an emergency, why even do it? For most classes of bikes (with the exception of extremely heavy tourers/cruisers), it is proven that the front can handle all the braking until the rear wheel comes up. It is also much easier to feel the braking with your front lever compared to the rear brake.

[ANR Impex]

I found a torrent for "Sport Riding Technique" by Nick Ienatsch, this is a highly recommended read.

 

While Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist" series focuses highly on track skills to the extent it alienates everyday riders, Nick's book focuses on developing real world skills for speed, safety and confidence for the street and track.

 

Nick is also the author of a well known piece if article known as "The Pace".

 

http://www.mininova.org/tor/762519

[Pplater]

I guess i would agree with you. The front brakes is more than sufficient to handle emergencies. The key is not to get into a n emergency of course, but in a real e-braking situations, the shorter your braking distances, the better your chances. The front brakes is a must, and the rear is almost next to useless, but it does a make a small difference... about... 10% to 15% stopping distance reduction i would say, depending on speed. I have been playing with my e braking of late. I would also suggest every rider spend just 10 minutes, take 10 minutes to try e braking at 60km.h and 70km/h just that once in your life on your bike. 10 minutes of your time, making ten runs up and down and e braking on a quiet road, and you get a new understanding of your bike. Its the speed most of us cross junctions. It makes a world of difference to your riding, and makes you think twice at taking junctions at 80 when there are oncoming vehicles about to turn right. ANR, is the the book you mentioned avaiable at say.. Borders?

[gaoxing11]

jus to check wif u guys... is it harder to corner left for right handers..?? cos personally when playing... i can take right corners low n fast but when cornering left... i tend to swerve out.. nearly buang... any help or tips on countering tis issue..??

[kmax]

http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/corners/

[Bay]

any vids on how to counter steer??

[skolapper]

Yep, but its French. Which means that unless theyve massively improved their build quality since I was in the trade about 5 years ago something - probably electrical and expensive - is likely to go wrong with it.

 

Am I far from the mark in that belief?

[crazydj]

jus to check wif u guys... is it harder to corner left for right handers..?? cos personally when playing... i can take right corners low n fast but when cornering left... i tend to swerve out.. nearly buang... any help or tips on countering tis issue..??

 

As a right hander, I find it much easier to corner left than right. I have always felt it like this since when i was young riding my bicycle. I confirmed with my dad and friends that since we are right handers, we find it easier to corner or turn left.

 

I am actually a little dissappointed that round-a-bouts in Singapore are turning right because i know i can corner extremely well on left turns. But a right corner feels more shoik than a left corner at the same speed because it is against the natural order of thing, with me being a right hander.

 

I have never scraped my foot pegs while cornering because firstly, i refuse to put my foot off the peg because i dont want to destroy my perfectly new footpeg.

[zyrofillica]

ybr scrape footpegs? isnt that hard with the thin tires? i scrapped my ktm pegs, but i was already lying on the ground by then.