[Discussion] CB400 SUPER FOUR HYPER VTEC Revo

[GothRod]

Ok Guys for the Double Sweep please also note the following

 

When turning 'ON' with key (First Sweep) let the machine settle down first. Ie wait for the Zzzz sound to disappear and wait about a min (even after the warning light has disappear )or so then press the ignition switch.

 

Whenever i ride for the while and then stop 5 mins later start up again, the double sweep can also occur.

 

I believe the charging part and discharging part can also caused the sweep.

 

I started the test on the above this morning when i started the engine prematurely the double sweep occurred. So I re-started again this time with the pause and the sweeping stop.

 

When u guys park, do you guys immediately off the switch or wait for it a while then cut the engine?

sometimes this also plays a part.

 

By the way guys, i am not trying to start this 'warfare' but just to keep you guys updated. THIS IS NOT MEANT TO START A PANIC ATTACK.

 

LOL... whatever it is just note this problem and check in once in a while.

[Winners]

Ok Guys for the Double Sweep please also note the following

 

When turning 'ON' with key (First Sweep) let the machine settle down first. Ie wait for the Zzzz sound to disappear and wait about a min (even after the warning light has disappear )or so then press the ignition switch.

 

Take note that it is not a good practice to keep the key switch at ON position for too long without starting the engine. This is because the ignition coils (the 1 giving the high voltage to the spark plugs and there are 2 of these, 1 on each side below the fuel tank) will be "charged" and heated up if the engine is not started soon. However, I think if it's less than 1 minute, it should be okay, but never leave the key in the ON position without starting the engine for more than 2 minutes. Otherwise, the ignition coil may overheat.

 

Furthermore, for those without the manual headlight switch (self-retrofit) to manually switch OFF the headlight, the battery will be further drained by the 55watt halogen bulb if the engine is not started soon.

 

My conclusion is that there are only 2 ways to resolve the 2nd sweeping problem:

 

a. Change to a larger capacity battery.

 

b. The firmware for the detection circuit has to be changed/upgraded, which I doubt the manufacturer is willing to do.

 

So, we'll just have to live with it then, since it won't really affect the operation of the bike anyway.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Winners

[GothRod]

Take note that it is not a good practice to keep the key switch at ON position for too long without starting the engine. This is because the ignition coils (the 1 giving the high voltage to the spark plugs and there are 2 of these, 1 on each side below the fuel tank) will be "charged" and heated up if the engine is not started soon. However, I think if it's less than 1 minute, it should be okay, but never leave the key in the ON position without starting the engine for more than 2 minutes. Otherwise, the ignition coil may overheat.

 

Furthermore, for those without the manual headlight switch (self-retrofit) to manually switch OFF the headlight, the battery will be further drained by the 55watt halogen bulb if the engine is not started soon.

 

My conclusion is that there are only 2 ways to resolve the 2nd sweeping problem:

 

a. Change to a larger capacity battery.

 

b. The firmware for the detection circuit has to be changed/upgraded, which I doubt the manufacturer is willing to do.

 

So, we'll just have to live with it then, since it won't really affect the operation of the bike anyway.

 

Agree but anyways the Key Turn On no need so long de. I am not asking for mins just like secs apart. Cannot be too hasty with the start up either.

 

No harm just remember that this problem exist

[ramsnake]

Strongly agree that your bike battery might not be charged enough if you've short daily traveling distance. Electronic devices for the Revo is much more than Spec III. So it should consume more electricity than older version. However, did the firmware designers of Revo upgrade their circuit design? If yes, how to explain the "fault" information of 2nd sweep on ignition?

 

I've a question, please share your case if available. My Revo shows a constant voltage of 14.2V from all rpm (i.e. 1.4krpm to 10krpm tested so far). So, can I consider my battery is charging over the whole rpm range instead after 3krpm?

 

I don't have a volt meter installed yet, so I can't share my readings.

 

As Winners has indicated, using an Amp meter is best as an indicator of charge rate. Please note that the 3k RPM I quoted is only a rough guide. Some bikes have a lower break-even point and some bikes have higher points. What aftermarket parts you install on your bike that has an electrical load would move the point higher as well.

 

In any case, most bikes do not charge very much on idling. If the charging rate is high enough on idling, then the excessive drain during short trips will not make a difference.

 

By the way, can anyone confirm that the alternator for Revo & Spec III are different?

 

I remember there is a magazine mentioned about "upgrade" of the alterntor for Revo using the alternator of CBR600, which is 2kg lighter. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Are you referring to the entire alternator assembly or just the magnet and coil? The Revo magnet-coil only weighs about 1kg (my burnt coil is with me for re-coil project).

So I doubt if there is going to be any meaningful weight diference compared to the CBR 600 coil.

 

As for replacing the entire alternator assembly I would recommend determining what are the differences in output first. If the CBR 600 alternator is indeed producing more AC, then you may have to consider if the Revo's rectifier can cope. Is it worth the effort and expense?

 

If you still have a copy of the magazine, can you share the article with us? It would be interesting to see what they've done.

Edited November 3, 2011 by ramsnake
underlined

[ramsnake]

Hi Ramsnake,

 

So, it now seems that the cause of the 2nd sweeping of the needles is not due to the alternator after all.

 

I've never said that the sweep-on-ignition indicator indicates an alternator malfunction. I was only sharing my experience with the magnet coil being burnt.

 

At the end of the day and judging from my experience with the bike, the needle-sweep-on-ignition is an indication that the battery may be weak. Please note that a weak battery may still be able to start the bike. However, what is important is why it is weak in the first place? Can it accept new electricity charge and for how long it can retain that charge.

 

From there, I would then note the following to trouble shoot:

 

1) How old is the battery? Is it one of the more a reliable brands that can usually last between 3-4 years? How old is it in relation to the expected useful life? Even if it is supposedly a reliable brand, did the bike shop charge the battery before installing it or did they just unwrap the thing and plonk it onto the bike?

 

After determining from above that the battery should be ok, I would have it charged anyway. Then I would consciously go for longer rides to monitor the situation (see previous explanation). If the sweep-on-ignition doesn't happen again after a week or so, then you know it is due to your riding habits. Do invest in a battery charger to maintain your battery. Sharing with a few friends is better than not having one.

 

2) If the battery is good, why is it not charging properly? How have I been riding the bike over the past one or two weeks? Primarily long or short rides?

 

2a) If short rides, charge the battery with a charger. Sweep-on-ignition should not recur. Then monitor your ride pattern over the next week or so. Stick with your existing riding habits. On the first sign of the needles sweeping on ignition, change your ride habit to taking longer rides before parking for the night. If needles no longer sweep on ignition, then you know it is due to length of your ride. If that is the case, no need to waste money burning petrol just to charge your battery. It is cheaper to buy a charger and charge your battery every other week. That's only about twice a month.

 

2b) If your rides are primarily long rides, consider that the rectifier or magnet coil may have deteriorated. Do note that even if you have gone for a long ride but at the end of that long ride, you park your bike somewhere to say, tapau some food before going home, it's only slightly better than a short ride.

 

3a) Rectifier

If you have a friendly mechanic, swap your rectifier with another that is in good working condition. Over the next week or so consciously go for longer rides and monitor. Note that if you don't charge the battery with a charger and the bike no longer sweep on ignition by simply swapping your rectifier and then going for long rides; it means that your original rectifier wasn't charging your battery. Problem solved. Change rectifier.

 

3b) Alternator - Magnet Coil

If rectifier is ok, consider your magnet coil. This is going to be more expensive. You would at least have to pay for the gasket. In any case, most of us aren't going to find friendly mechanics with used parts lying around. So, consider just changing the alternator. Be sure to keep your magnet coil and start looking around for re-coil service to keep it as a spare.

 

Conclusion

The fact that my magnet coil burnt is just what it is. From consciously monitoring my rides and allowing the bike sufficient time to charge the battery, the needles no longer sweep on ignition.

[ramsnake]

Anyway, for your information, it's really not much use to prevent the 2nd sweeping problem with the retrofit headlight switch. I had already made 1 on my bike since day 1 and it can be selected in "OFF" mode, "halogen bulb" mode and an "LED daytime running light" mode, which I had built into the headlamp. So, when I ride during the day (which is most of the time), I'll just use the LED light in my headlamp.

 

Having a headlight switch will not prevent you from having a weak battery if you primarily go on short rides. However, it is one of the things we can do to actively minimise unnecessary battery drain.

 

In my case, I often go touring as well. The switch comes in handy when parking at unlit stretches of the North South Highway. The rear lights can be turned on so other motorists can see me. At the same time, I minimise battery drain by switching off the headlights.

 

Unfortunately, the 2nd sweeping problem will recur again. Initially, it was about once a week, then once every few days and now, every morning, even with the headlight switch set to "OFF" mode. If I charge the battery manually, the problem will recycle again. That is: once a week or 2, once every few days and every morning again after about 2 to 3 weeks. So, it's a waste of time.

 

Every morning? Sounds like it is time to replace your battery since it is not holding the charge.

 

As I mentioned before in a previous post, there is no cure for primarily short rides because the battery will drain more than it is charged. Even after charging the battery with a charger, the problem WILL recur if you continue to have primarily short rides. However, charging the battery with an external charger helps to prolong the useful life of the battery and will save you from being unable to start your bike when you are away from home.

 

Do note that batteries do deteriorate. They will deteriorate even faster if our rides are primarily short rides and we allow the voltage to drop below a certain level for an extended period of time.

 

Anyway, I am of the opinion that the fuel pump will draw a high current when the key switch is first set to "ignition" (that is before starting the engine). Although the fuel pump will stop after a second or 2, however, this action could have caused the battery to lose its power momentarily and if we were to start the engine immediately after the orange "Fuel Injection" light is off (which most riders will usually do), it may be too short time for the battery's voltage to recover. Further to that, the voltage drop caused by the heavy current consumed by the starter motor will then cause this 2nd sweeping of the meters because its circuit would have detected excessive overall voltage drop. The chances of this occurrence will be much lesser if the battery is pretty brand new at less than 6 months old.

 

My conclusion is that the battery's capacity is insufficient for this bike (which is equipped with Fuel Injection). The older carburetor model (Spec 3 and older) will experience less of this problem because there's no fuel pump to drain the battery when the key switch is set to "ignition". I am well aware that most Japanese vehicles (cars and motorcycles alike) are designed with just the minimum battery capacity needed. This whole issue is because they want to save costs as a larger capacity battery will need a larger alternator (to charge the larger capacity battery), which in turn will increase the overall manufacturing costs.

 

Therefore, I believe it's no use to see Boon Siew after all. The only way to prevent the 2nd sweeping problem is to modify the battery compartment to accommodate a larger capacity battery. But this is not really necessary as the bike will still perform as per normal with its existing battery (already proven by forumer LeoWai in his post), albeit with the annoying 2nd sweeping of the needles.

 

@LeoWai has bought a CTek charger and it has solved his needle sweep on ignition issue.

 

Please note that increasing the battery capacity will only give you more juice as a start. However if your rides are primarily short rides, you are only deferring the appearance of the needles-sweep-on-ignition. Our Revo battery is rated at 8.6Ah and from your earlier experience your fully charged battery can keep the indicator away for about a week. Say Boon Siew increase the capacity as you suggests to 12Ah. My guess is you would probably get another 2 or 3 days before the needles sweep on ignition again.

 

Do remember that higher capacity batteries mean more weight. More weight equals higher fuel consumption and lower acceleration rates. Higher manufacturing costs also mean more expensive bikes for you and I.

 

I'd like to think that the Honda engineers have done enough to find the right balance.

 

I note also that only 6 riders have indicated that they are experiencing this problem whilst the majority are not.

 

 

Looks like we'll just have to live with it then. Cheers

 

My preference is to understand the issue and find the cause rather than to live with it but then that's just me.

 

Cheers

[Winners]

In my conclusion, a well designed bike would not need to manually charge its battery every week or 2. This is ridiculous and it just doesn't makes sense. It is only necessary if the bike is left unused for more than a month. Apart from the HISS and IU unit, which are only consuming in milli-amperes, there is no other electrical consumption when the key switch is in OFF position. I'm referring to a stock bike without an alarm unit.

 

Under normal circumstances, the battery should be adequately charged if it is ridden (not idling) for about 1 hour per day.

 

My comparison here has all the while been the original HONDA battery. I have never changed my batteries before, even for my ex-SPEC 3, which lasted me more than 2.5 years and my present REVO is only coming to 1 year.

 

A larger capacity battery will definitely help to eliminate this problem because it will have more than sufficient stored energy to prevent the large voltage drop during starting. Of course if you are going to store the bike for more than 2 months without starting, there is a likelihood of the problem recurring again. This is of course an exceptional case and generally, most riders would have used their bikes at least once a week, if not more.

 

In comparing the ratio of the weight of a slightly larger battery to the weight of the bike, it won't create any noticeable increase in fuel consumption. Under-inflated tires will be a more prominent cause, although this is a different subject altogether.

 

The present original HONDA battery, which is less than 1 year old, is not even able to prevent the 2nd sweep problem despite the bike is being used every day. Some forumers even commented that even during mid-day starting (that means the bike was just ridden a few hours before), the problem will recur. I also had personally experienced this myself.

 

Those 6 riders who had highlighted their plight in this thread doesn't concur that there are only 6 REVO riders in Singapore having this problem. I'm sure there are more as not every REVO rider is Internet savvy.

 

Anyway, if you manage to find the cause and hopefully a remedy as well, please do share with us again. Thank you.

[LeoWai]

@LeoWai has bought a CTek charger and it has solved his needle sweep on ignition issue.

Ermm... Just to clearify, it's temporary "solved" once the battery is fully charged and put back on bike. 2nd sweep on ignition still happen after few days later for my case.

[ramsnake]

Anyway, if you manage to find the cause and hopefully a remedy as well, please do share with us again. Thank you.

 

psstt... found and shared at post #6281

[waveriderxxx]

Hi All

 

I'm new to this forum and just recently upgraded my bike to revo. I bought it brand new and i'm start encountering the HISS issue randomly. Sometime the fuel pump will not prime and HISS light still on. When i press the ignition button , the engine will start but which i don't think it is a good idea. I searched thru google and found from netrider forum that the issue will resolve after replacing the ignition coil. Can DIY ? How much is the price of the ignition coil ?. Below is the link from netrider forum. Thanks to all.

 

http://www.netrider.net.au/forums/showthread.php?t=109970

Edited November 5, 2011 by waveriderxxx

[SparkerS1]

Since you bought it brand new, might as well bring it back to Boon Siew to rectify if it''s an agent bike as still under warranty

[waveriderxxx]

Since you bought it brand new, might as well bring it back to Boon Siew to rectify if it''s an agent bike as still under warranty

 

Thanks sparkerS1. I believe it should be parallel import. But manual is in english. Really irritating issue there. i've a spare key also and encountering same thing. i love my bike but that HISS thing make me really disappointed.

[SparkerS1]

how about u try twisting the throttle a bit when starting the bike, only do this if same problem occur.

 

If problem persist, bring to ur mech to rectify, too much factors, key program chip faulty, HISS re-encoding etc

[waveriderxxx]

how about u try twisting the throttle a bit when starting the bike, only do this if same problem occur.

 

If problem persist, bring to ur mech to rectify, too much factors, key program chip faulty, HISS re-encoding etc

 

Thanks again Sparker , my one no need to twist the throttle and can start up by just pressing the starter. Once i start force start the bike , it will back to normal after 1 or 2 second.Just now i went to test with both my original key and spare key , by on and off more than 20 time..no issue again..quite lost .. Thanks

[Allizzwell]

Riders with needle-sweep-on-ignition issue

 

Please add yourself to this list if you are facing this issue.

Please keep the list going.

 

1) ldslds

2) idbiot

3) jamil

4) ruis 145

5) Haikal

6) winners (only if before 20 Nov 11 as my bike's warranty will expire by then)

7) Allizzwell

[Allizzwell]

i am now also facing the double sweep problem but the good news is that it only occurred twice so far in the spam of about 2-3 weeks.

so from what i read in this thread there are a couple of suspects

1. Battery dying/ not charging properly.

2. Rectifier

3. Alternator - Magnet Coil

Am i right? please correct me if i am wrong.

i am really quite new to revo, hence,

can someone recommend me trustworthy bike shop that is skilled in fixing this double sweep problem?

what brand of battery is reputable? and i have to make sure the bike shop charge it for 3-4hrs before installing it in my bike right?

how much will it cost if i change the coil and/or rectifier?

and has anyone face any other problem from the ignition sweep? i am afraid it will be bad in long run.

please advise (:

thanks a great deal!

[W17]

Hi All Revo Bro,

All the best.

Edited November 15, 2011 by W17

[wcengineer]

Anyone know if my revo, 2009/2010 version can install abs break?

[Allizzwell]

i went to auntie shop and check with the mechanic regarding the sweep on ignition.

he said it is normal. all the revo got it.

how much credit can we give him?

[ramsnake]

Anyone know if my revo, 2009/2010 version can install abs break?

 

Can but very expensive. I recommend that you should only consider having it done by Boon Siew.

[ramsnake]

i went to auntie shop and check with the mechanic regarding the sweep on ignition.

he said it is normal. all the revo got it.

how much credit can we give him?

 

 

LOL... you sure you want to trust him?

If a fault indicator comes on all the time or some of the time, it is acceptable? If it shows up on some bikes but not all bikes, is it "normal"?

 

Riders with needle-sweep-on-ignition issue

 

Please add yourself to this list if you are facing this issue.

Please keep the list going.

 

1) ldslds

2) idbiot

3) jamil

4) ruis 145

5) Haikal

6) winners (only if before 20 Nov 11 as my bike's warranty will expire by then)

7) Allizzwell

 

Is anyone taking the lead to approach Boon Siew for the official answer?

[Winners]

Is anyone taking the lead to approach Boon Siew for the official answer?

Hi Ramsnake,

 

For your information, I won't be pursuing this matter with Boon Siew anymore.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Winners

[thatguyhaikal]

Hi Ramsnake,

 

For your information, I won't be pursuing this matter with Boon Siew anymore.

 

and why not bro?

[gkang]

Hi... I find that the revo can be v hot around the fuel tank region. So does putting on a tank bra helps?

[Winners]

and why not bro?

 

Initially, I thought that the premature failure of the magneto coil could have contributed to the cause of the 2nd sweeping problem. However, I may have misunderstood Ramsnake's earlier posting on this issue. Subsequent posting by him indicated that shortly after his replacement of the magneto coil, the problem still persists on his bike.

 

My opinion is that this problem may be caused by a software bug in the voltage detection circuit. Apart from the 2nd sweeping nuisance, I believe it won't pose other functional problems to the bike.

 

Furthermore, since forumer LeoWai is also having this problem for quite a while already and he experiences no other side-effects even till now, I therefore think that it will be pointless to see Boon Siew as they will never admit it is HONDA's fault.

 

Anyway, if other brothers here would still want to pursue with Boon Siew and if there's any effective follow-ups from Boon Siew, please do share them here for the benefit of all REVO owners. Thank you.