question on getting ur butt back during exit

[h3llfire]

hi, everytime when i exiting the corner. i always have difficulty getting my butt back without the bike wobble.

i dun slide my butt which mean i get my butt up and move it.

is it the problem with my power output on the foot peg?

my suspension?

or the timing i get my butt back?

 

i need some help from you guys! thank u!

[Hartholomew]

It's happening because you are using your arms as a lever to pull your body back in to position when you should be using your legs.

 

As you use your arms, you inadvertently provide steering input which is making the front tyre move, which makes the whole bike move.

 

This means that you're not using your legs and thighs to lock yourself into the tank.

 

Work on your body positioning.

 

Nothing wrong with your bike, I guarantee it.

[h3llfire]

ok. so as for power output on the foot peg. is it better to use more leg power from the inside or outside? or same power on both side?

[Hartholomew]

What do you mean by "power output on the footpeg"?

 

I think you mean how much of strength you use to shift your body with your legs right?

 

Well, the answer is to simply use just enough strength to shift your body while using as little of your arms as possible.

 

Ride more, experiment with your riding and find out what works for you.

 

Although there is a definite technique to riding, no 2 riders ever ride exactly the same.

 

Get out there and ride your bike smart by experimenting and learning something everytime you ride, instead of going around in pointless circles like many people do.

 

All the best.

[KOSMIK]

Good advice bro..i also just learn from it...

[redbeacon]

Well, the answer is to simply use just enough strength to shift your body while using as little of your arms as possible.

 

Ride more, experiment with your riding and find out what works for you.

 

Good advice and explanation method there sir. Speaking in this way, bike and track riding in itself -- it's like applying common sense, much like how you know you need to apply more hand force to cut open the lid of a metal can, while holding the can steady with the other hand.

 

However, I also have views on the other topics that you brought up.

 

(sorry if this is going to go off topic)

 

Although there is a definite technique to riding, no 2 riders ever ride exactly the same.

 

Yours truly is a track rider exploring ways to improve himself. And I have to admit, i'm stuck at the point where I seem to feel I'm not going any faster, and I'm not wanting to change my lines because I am just unsure on whether it's okay to.

 

You're right that no 2 riders ever ride exactly the same, but this is just an allowance that nobody's perfect. Both still need to be in the roughly same ballpark to be able to be successful. For instance, no one professional racetrack rider would fully apply road skills on the track.

 

Get out there and ride your bike smart by experimenting and learning something everytime you ride, instead of going around in pointless circles like many people do.

 

For some of us, this is actually easier having being said than done.

 

Some of us feel "smart" having gotten some very good tips from the senior riders/racers, but feel that it only helps in clearing the corners safely, and not actually forming the foundation to increase the speed around corners.

 

Some learn too much "techniques", swallow so much, and get confused as to what is correct. If a rider cannot connect the dots - lining, technique, best practices - he most probably would find it difficult to control his bike and would fall back to his habitual bad habits to regain control over his bike.

 

One good example that I can state -- and that most racers would probably say the same -- is to loosen up the grip on the handlebars. This goes in line with your suggestion on 'using the legs to grip the tank' but of course, if he doesn't know of other common-sense techniques, that same person may just enter the corner wrongly for instance, kelam kabut in the turn, and then instead grip his handlebars tightly.

 

My point being in this discussion, experimentation is good, and it gives the person a chance to learn, but sometimes I feel mistakes do cause either his/her concepts to be mixed up and may worsen his riding skill and lap times. That's why techniques also have to form the other half of a person's want to be able to learn professional track riding.

 

I haven't had the chance to voice out my opinions and concerns yet on track riding and skill development, but I guess now is a good time to do so, or so I guess.

I type these things because I'm aspired to learn.

Hope this is not perceived as a tekan or complaining session here.

 

With best regards to your expertise, sir. Thanks.

[Hartholomew]

Redbeacon,

 

It always is better to teach a person how to fish, rather than to catch a fish FOR him/her.

 

Which is why I only point in the right direction and leave the rest to them, as what my teachers have done for me. How far anybody goes is directly proportionate to the effort they put in.

 

No one is guaranteed a degree all because they got into NUS.

 

If they just take that advice and do what they are told without understanding for themselves, they will never be able to apply properly or as implied.

 

I bet that the best lessons that anyone will never forget are those that were self taught, or had great impact on a personal level; right?

 

Exactly.

 

I NEVER take advice from anyone that cannot offer me a rational explanation for any technique or tips they offer. A unique talent that Graziano Rossi was quoted as saying that Valentino had, was the ability to quickly judge whether advice being given was good or not, regardless of who is giving it.

 

Read Valentino's autobiography - it's very insightful.

 

To me, if you cannot explain it scientifically, then it's just like spreading myths and rumours. Technology got to where it is because we strive to understand things and not just say "it works, who cares how?".

 

It is worth mentioning that the fastest guys may not necessarily make the best teachers. A good teacher is someone that is able to understand, motivate and explain what needs to be done, being fast is optional. I just had coffee with the new Singapore Rowing Team coach Sasha Mimic and traded views on this.

 

Majority of successful coaches are not ex-star players, but more likely above average with a gift for motivating and being able to see potential.

 

There are very few people out there that can explain WHY they do what they do; and ride how they ride.

Some dont explain it because they want to keep those secrets to themselves.

 

Are these the type of people anyone wants to take advice from?

 

Remember, once you stop trying new things and pushing, you stop learning - take a break and dont burn yourself out.

Take a step back and come back to it when your head is clear.

 

Riding is supposed to be fun and I'm having the best fun of my life right now even though I dont know what my laptimes are!!!!!

 

Go home with a smile on your face and friends by your side - that's what matters and thats what the Rev Club is all about.

 

Dont take anything too seriously until it becomes your job, or because others are relying on you.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Hartholomew

[Hartholomew]

Good advice bro..i also just learn from it...

 

Welcome, hope to ride with you again soon!

[sibingai]

 

Riding is supposed to be fun and I'm having the best fun of my life right now even though I dont know what my laptimes are!!!!!

 

Go home with a smile on your face and friends by your side - that's what matters

 

Dont take anything too seriously until it becomes your job, or because others are relying on you.

 

:thumb:

 

loved the last part of the whole write up.nice bike Hart~

[h3llfire]

yes riding was fun!! that tat make me keep going and learning. and car are just boring transport for me i dun feel the fun at all driving a car.

but too bad ur rev club entry requirement is for 600 and above

and for the ur dp, u sure is loose on ur grip!!

 

btw. i have experiment with a stationary bike on a side stand is that the outside thigh that is holding the tank will be main source of strength that is pulling me back to the seat. i shall try it the next time i go track

 

can u help me with this problem?

during my last track day which was few months back, i have a bad highside at turn 4 PG.

when i was exiting turn 4, i think i am too greedy, and i fed alot of throttle. for a spit second everything when slowly and i could feel my rear sliding. but i just couldnt control my hand to close the throttle even though i know i shouldnt close it. is there any technique or practice for this barrier?

Edited April 13, 2010 by h3llfire

[Hartholomew]

Thanks Sibingai.

 

Hellfire,

 

You got the right idea, but let me give you a little more detail for you to digest and experiment with.

 

It's still hard to lock your body in with just your thigh. The trick is using your whole lower leg, from your knee to you foot.

 

Find a bike with a main stand and try this out:

 

For a left bend:

 

1 - Sit normally on the bike, then push your body back in the seat a little as if you were braking. How much varies from person to person depending on physical stature, to give you space to move around. You dont want to be too close to the tank as it raises the centre of gravity making it more "stoppie" prone and restricts your movement. Remember that your arms should be ALMOST straight.

 

2 - Put the arch of your right foot on the peg and the toe of your left foot on the peg. This is the proper cornering footing (ALL the top riders ride like this in every corner), you will understand why later.

 

3 - Now move your butt sideways to the left. As you do this, you will find that you can only go so far until the lower half of your right leg stops you. Remember to keep everything in the position described in 1 & 2!! Now the inside of your right knee should be touching the tank and the inside of your right ankle/foot/calve should be quite close to the foot peg assembly.

 

4 - Now point your right toe downwards. Notice how right your knee seems to dig into the tank when you do this? You are now locked in and using your thigh and torso muscles, you can support the rest of your upper body, so you can let the front tire do it's work without gripping it so damn hard & interfering.

 

Notice how its seems that ALL the top riders have their outside foot this way during corners? Go on, google some pictures of THE best not some ALMOST there guy or the shorty Pedrosa.

 

Now try leaning your upper body to your left with a light grip on the bars. You dont fall off! Your inside (left leg) will also feel light and have freedom of movement to stick out a knee or bring it in if you lean over far enough.

 

Voila!

 

The MAIN reason you should get adjustable rearsets is to set the height of the pegs so that they suit you in this respect, NOT to make them higher. The first priority is that they put your feet and knee in a position that offers you the best grip on the bike, so you can ride with your upper body relaxed. The pegs being higher is secondary and interestingly, they should be set as low as possible to put the riders legs at the "half squat" position, while not scraping the ground at full lean.

 

Why "half squat"? - Because that is when your thigh and hamstring muscles have the most leverage and you can use more strength with lesser effort meaning you can do more laps.

 

Even wondered why sprinters dont start from a full squat, but use starting blocks set so that their legs are half bent at about 90 degrees? - This is why.

 

It makes me sad when I see guys riding around with rearsets set so high and so far back that their whole body weight is on their crotch and arms. Your legs are the strongest muscles in your body, so why are you forcing yourself into a position that makes them almost useless????

 

Style maybe? I dunno...

 

Use your legs to pick yourself up by lifting your ass of the seat (when the turn is over!!!!) with your legs and using your inner thighs to shift your body over. Think of it like trying to touch your knees together. This way, you leave the handlebars alone.

 

Learn to ride everywhere you go with your abdominal & back muscles supporting you upper body. If you make this a habit, it will come naturally at the track.

 

The first month or so will be pure hell, but the good part is that you can cancel your membership to California Fitness - serious.

 

About your highside - you just got greedy. Learn to wind the throttle on smoothly while feeling for grip. If you do this progressively and smoothly you should be able to feel the slide earlier and stop throttling to save it. It happens to everyone, especially when pushing, but thats life hey.

 

The secret is to be able to react to a slide as early as possible. Preventing the problem is better than trying to solve it.

 

Kind of like Ducati's traction control (cut engine power when the rear starts to slide) versus Yamaha's, which used predictive control so that the slide never starts in the first place!

 

Now you know why Rossi was so dominant in '08 and '09 and why Ducati stole their software engineers.

Alright, that is enough!

 

If you want more you'll just have to get a 600 and join us in Sepang!

 

Or buy me coffee.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Hartholomew

[dragonforce]

Redbeacon,

 

It always is better to teach a person how to fish, rather than to catch a fish FOR him/her.

 

Which is why I only point in the right direction and leave the rest to them, as what my teachers have done for me. How far anybody goes is directly proportionate to the effort they put in.

 

No one is guaranteed a degree all because they got into NUS.

 

If they just take that advice and do what they are told without understanding for themselves, they will never be able to apply properly or as implied.

 

I bet that the best lessons that anyone will never forget are those that were self taught, or had great impact on a personal level; right?

 

Exactly.

 

I NEVER take advice from anyone that cannot offer me a rational explanation for any technique or tips they offer. A unique talent that Graziano Rossi was quoted as saying that Valentino had, was the ability to quickly judge whether advice being given was good or not, regardless of who is giving it.

 

Read Valentino's autobiography - it's very insightful.

 

To me, if you cannot explain it scientifically, then it's just like spreading myths and rumours. Technology got to where it is because we strive to understand things and not just say "it works, who cares how?".

 

It is worth mentioning that the fastest guys may not necessarily make the best teachers. A good teacher is someone that is able to understand, motivate and explain what needs to be done, being fast is optional. I just had coffee with the new Singapore Rowing Team coach Sasha Mimic and traded views on this.

 

Majority of successful coaches are not ex-star players, but more likely above average with a gift for motivating and being able to see potential.

 

There are very few people out there that can explain WHY they do what they do; and ride how they ride.

Some dont explain it because they want to keep those secrets to themselves.

 

Are these the type of people anyone wants to take advice from?

 

Remember, once you stop trying new things and pushing, you stop learning - take a break and dont burn yourself out.

Take a step back and come back to it when your head is clear.

 

Riding is supposed to be fun and I'm having the best fun of my life right now even though I dont know what my laptimes are!!!!!

 

Go home with a smile on your face and friends by your side - that's what matters and thats what the Rev Club is all about.

 

Dont take anything too seriously until it becomes your job, or because others are relying on you.

 

absolutely fantastic writeup.

[KOSMIK]

Welcome, hope to ride with you again soon!

 

Yup..bro...need all the tips from u..starting back from basics....sms me if u go PG...

I buy u coffee any time and any day bro!

Edited April 14, 2010 by KOSMIK

[h3llfire]

Thanks Sibingai.

 

Hellfire,

 

You got the right idea, but let me give you a little more detail for you to digest and experiment with.

 

It's still hard to lock your body in with just your thigh. The trick is using your whole lower leg, from your knee to you foot.

 

Find a bike with a main stand and try this out:

 

i have a cub with main stand but it doesnt have a tank infront. lol. i think i will try using my 250 in the mean time.

 

For a left bend:

 

1 - Sit normally on the bike, then push your body back in the seat a little as if you were braking. How much varies from person to person depending on physical stature, to give you space to move around. You dont want to be too close to the tank as it raises the centre of gravity making it more "stoppie" prone and restricts your movement. Remember that your arms should be ALMOST straight.

 

2 - Put the arch of your right foot on the peg and the toe of your left foot on the peg. This is the proper cornering footing (ALL the top riders ride like this in every corner), you will understand why later.

 

3 - Now move your butt sideways to the left. As you do this, you will find that you can only go so far until the lower half of your right leg stops you. Remember to keep everything in the position described in 1 & 2!! Now the inside of your right knee should be touching the tank and the inside of your right ankle/foot/calve should be quite close to the foot peg assembly.

 

4 - Now point your right toe downwards. Notice how right your knee seems to dig into the tank when you do this? You are now locked in and using your thigh and torso muscles, you can support the rest of your upper body, so you can let the front tire do it's work without gripping it so damn hard & interfering.

 

Notice how its seems that ALL the top riders have their outside foot this way during corners? Go on, google some pictures of THE best not some ALMOST there guy or the shorty Pedrosa.

 

Now try leaning your upper body to your left with a light grip on the bars. You dont fall off! Your inside (left leg) will also feel light and have freedom of movement to stick out a knee or bring it in if you lean over far enough.

 

Voila!

nice and detail explanation. i will try it out and see i got any difficulty anot.

 

The MAIN reason you should get adjustable rearsets is to set the height of the pegs so that they suit you in this respect, NOT to make them higher. The first priority is that they put your feet and knee in a position that offers you the best grip on the bike, so you can ride with your upper body relaxed. The pegs being higher is secondary and interestingly, they should be set as low as possible to put the riders legs at the "half squat" position, while not scraping the ground at full lean.

 

Why "half squat"? - Because that is when your thigh and hamstring muscles have the most leverage and you can use more strength with lesser effort meaning you can do more laps.

 

Even wondered why sprinters dont start from a full squat, but use starting blocks set so that their legs are half bent at about 90 degrees? - This is why.

 

It makes me sad when I see guys riding around with rearsets set so high and so far back that their whole body weight is on their crotch and arms. Your legs are the strongest muscles in your body, so why are you forcing yourself into a position that makes them almost useless????

 

Style maybe? I dunno...

abit confuse here. So grip on the tank is more impt or the angle of leg is more impt? and adjusting the footpeg position more to the front is better?

 

 

If you want more you'll just have to get a 600 and join us in Sepang!

 

Or buy me coffee.

 

Currently still serving ns but ord soon. no money to support a 600. but i think i will get one once i find a job. then i can join u all liao

and of cos coffee on me!

 

thank for ur guidance!really good and detail explanation with reasoning! can u be my shifu?

[Raptor]

Can Hart be my shifu also... but I no 600 leh, only a single cylinder supermotard.

[redbeacon]

Redbeacon,

 

It always is better to teach a person how to fish, rather than to catch a fish FOR him/her.

 

Which is why I only point in the right direction and leave the rest to them, as what my teachers have done for me. How far anybody goes is directly proportionate to the effort they put in.

 

If they just take that advice and do what they are told without understanding for themselves, they will never be able to apply properly or as implied.

 

I bet that the best lessons that anyone will never forget are those that were self taught, or had great impact on a personal level; right?

 

I NEVER take advice from anyone that cannot offer me a rational explanation for any technique or tips they offer. A unique talent that Graziano Rossi was quoted as saying that Valentino had, was the ability to quickly judge whether advice being given was good or not, regardless of who is giving it.

 

Read Valentino's autobiography - it's very insightful.

 

To me, if you cannot explain it scientifically, then it's just like spreading myths and rumours. Technology got to where it is because we strive to understand things and not just say "it works, who cares how?".

 

It is worth mentioning that the fastest guys may not necessarily make the best teachers. A good teacher is someone that is able to understand, motivate and explain what needs to be done, being fast is optional. I just had coffee with the new Singapore Rowing Team coach Sasha Mimic and traded views on this.

 

Majority of successful coaches are not ex-star players, but more likely above average with a gift for motivating and being able to see potential.

 

There are very few people out there that can explain WHY they do what they do; and ride how they ride.

Some dont explain it because they want to keep those secrets to themselves.

 

Are these the type of people anyone wants to take advice from?

 

Remember, once you stop trying new things and pushing, you stop learning - take a break and dont burn yourself out.

Take a step back and come back to it when your head is clear.

 

Riding is supposed to be fun and I'm having the best fun of my life right now even though I dont know what my laptimes are!!!!!

 

Go home with a smile on your face and friends by your side - that's what matters and thats what the Rev Club is all about.

 

Dont take anything too seriously until it becomes your job, or because others are relying on you.

 

Hart,

 

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement where it's better to know why methods are being applied, and not just how it's done. And I try not to be rhetorical with making statements like these, as I really believe in people who are able to impart their knowledge to others this way.

 

I'm not too sure whether you've known this ex-racer called Siew C H. I have heard that he had changed the lives of many ordinary track riders into experienced ones, some even moving on to becoming professionals. Before he left the scene stating that he was unable to teach anymore students, he still made the effort to draft out a one-page note to me on the various techniques made for those who just started out playing track. At that time I had just upgraded to a 4 cylinder bike and figured out that this would mean extra power that I would like to have control of if I want to continue with my track hobby. In the note was the techniques were recommended to me with was with regards to approach, in-the-turn, and out of it, and also explanation of . Kinda like what you've said about what a "good teacher" is all about.

 

Pardon me if this person was actually somebody you had competed with in the same races; I brought this up just to illustrate what a real instructor really is made of, and I'm sure that you're of the same calibre.

 

Another source of knowledge and inspiration - A Twist of the Wrist, books published by the California Superbike School team.

 

All in all, these people are the track riding and racing psychologists. They've been on track before, understands every aspect of professional riding, and are able to relate their experiences to their students and to give sound advice on top of the A-B-C techniques that they recommend.

 

Rossi's riding style is quite extraordinary; everytime I hear about him from word-of-mouth, he's always taking the corners as if he's done so many times and that he puts high trust in everything he does. Perhaps I need to watch videos of him in races just to just to get an idea of how he does it.

 

It is probably an unknown fact that there's a smirk on Rossi's face when he begins his cornering, but I digress. Gawd knows what this cheeky fella is thinking. Perhaps the tinted visor is to blame?

 

Despite all that's been said, it has been hard for me to find an experienced rider of that level to teach, nor do I even know anybody so nowadays, I can only afford some practice time to remember my lines and basic techniques, and to keep my cornering phobias in check. But I can agree onto one fact: track riding is addictive fun, if not just an adrenaline shot.

 

If I do have the time in the near future, I'll try to give Rev Club a shot.

 

Thanks

Edited April 14, 2010 by redbeacon

[Hartholomew]

Thanks to everyone for the thumb ups!

 

Hellfire,

 

Treat the seat as the tank on the cub. Cub seats are alot longer and stretch farther forward than on a traditional superbike, but the technique can be adapted.

 

Regarding gripping the tank, leg placement and foot peg placement - the placement of your leg (angle or whatever) and foot contribute to grip on the tank. So it is not the case of grip on the tank being more important, grip on the tank is the end result you should be aiming for by experimenting with leg and feet placement!

 

We'll be around, so call on us when you are ready.

 

I'd rather be your friend dude, it's all the same to me.

 

If you need good guidance on Cubs, Raptor is your man.

 

Redbeacon,

 

I know Charn and still look up to him. It is a shame that he had such bad luck and that he left racing - he was and still is one of THE top guys in my book.

 

I have a copy of Twist of the Wrist at home and plan to do their courses when I get the time. Who knows, maybe there will be a "CHANGKAT CHANGI SUPERBIKE SCHOOL" in the near future?

 

If you happen to ever meet "Junkie" (Ozzy - Looi's Motor #69), he has been racing from about the same time as Charn, with alot of knowledge to offer and a deep well of experience.

 

He even taught me a thing or two just a couple of months ago and the best thing about him is:

 

The fella is humble (when sober) and does not throw his weight around

The bugger shoots straight (when sober), he wont advise and try to bullshit his way through if he does not know the answer

The fugger is fackin funny (when sober) and even funnier when drunk!

 

The Rev Club is ready when you are sir.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Hartholomew

[h3llfire]

hart:

lol my cub is a auto cub model nouvo. it not man for cornering. raptor is my tutor as well when the tuas track was functioning.

hope to join u all soon!

 

nel: i think i know the problem lies where. technique can all be found anywhere! internet, friend, fellow junkie etc. y we need experience rider is because they pass through the barrier of mastering the technique. experience riders are mainly not for u to ask technique from. but to help u solve or guide to over come the barrier of mastering the technique. and i think from the previous post.

Yours truly is a track rider exploring ways to improve himself. And I have to admit, i'm stuck at the point where I seem to feel I'm not going any faster, and I'm not wanting to change my lines because I am just unsure on whether it's okay to.

you do not know specifically where ur problem lies. so u need to find the root of the problem

so y are u unsure of ur line? do u feel comfortable? encounter any wide exit? late in throttle? changing of lean angel during corner? on off of throttle?

[redbeacon]

nel: i think i know the problem lies where. technique can all be found anywhere! internet, friend, fellow junkie etc. y we need experience rider is because they pass through the barrier of mastering the technique. experience riders are mainly not for u to ask technique from. but to help u solve or guide to over come the barrier of mastering the technique. and i think from the previous post.

you do not know specifically where ur problem lies. so u need to find the root of the problem

so y are u unsure of ur line? do u feel comfortable? encounter any wide exit? late in throttle? changing of lean angel during corner? on off of throttle?

 

Thanks for the tips, bud.

 

I think it's more of a limitation here. I simply feel I have "went so fast", and it just stops there when I want to try to go much faster.

 

I'm going to go into the specifics. Stop me if there's anything that you don't understand >>>

 

With the line already setup (brake, turn, exit) I can comfortably enter and exit a corner. But when the urge comes to try to go faster, I know eventually I have to either change my line or to go lower -- both of which I'm unsure of and do not dare to do. Sure everything is a learning curve, but it just feels different and is something that I'm not used to.

 

I guess I need to be more flexible and to allow myself to push my limits perhaps.

[h3llfire]

ok. this is what i feel. so it might be right or wrong.

 

if u have read the twist of the wrist, i'm sure u encounter the speed barrier section. and i think that is what u r encountering now or and even i myself is encountering now.

first of cos is to increase ur avg cornering speed (entry, mid turn and exit)

little by little to overcome the speed barrier. always have in mind, y ppl can do it, y can't i? u will have the mindset to expand ur comfort zone.

And u know urself where is ur comfort lean angle. but maybe there is more u can still use. always go little by little until u drag something. there will be high chance u will fall but tell urself there wont be any great damage for a lowside and that where ur race fairing and slider come to play.

u will know actually how great a bike can lean with only the 2 thin tire. it will sure boost ur lean angle confident.

eventually it all about not afraid of falling to make u expand ur comfort zone.

 

As for lining, that will be later part when u encounter wide exit, u will start to think about changing ur line, late entry etc, if u think the corner can be faster.

there will be other thing coming in, like quick flick of bike which led to counter steer etc.

Edited April 22, 2010 by h3llfire