Bike sold but buyer doesn't want to change ownership

[duo]

Ill keep this simple, he is a sub rider to my insurance, he has paid in full but i told him i want my insurance back and transfer ownership.

 

Bugger cant wait so I sold it off to him, I told him can transfer latet but I asked him for a date. He gives me a certain date but now he's been delaying since that date and Im getting pissed. Im worried that if he ride without insurance, I kena. Same goes for traffic offences

 

He got license, he paid full machine price and he topped up e insurance to include him as a sub rider, I gave him since fasting month till now to transfer ownership. I have the documents but ill double check. Bike fully paid for, he's ignoring my messages, serious. I gave him till end of this week, either pay the remainder of my insurance or I kill the insurance.

 

If he pisses me off sommore, Ill find where he lives, tow e bike and scrap it and get my COE money.

Sounds like a good plan.

[mechwira]

Ill keep this simple, he is a sub rider to my insurance, he has paid in full but i told him i want my insurance back and transfer ownership.

 

Bugger cant wait so I sold it off to him, I told him can transfer latet but I asked him for a date. He gives me a certain date but now he's been delaying since that date and Im getting pissed. Im worried that if he ride without insurance, I kena. Same goes for traffic offences

 

He got license, he paid full machine price and he topped up e insurance to include him as a sub rider, I gave him since fasting month till now to transfer ownership. I have the documents but ill double check. Bike fully paid for, he's ignoring my messages, serious. I gave him till end of this week, either pay the remainder of my insurance or I kill the insurance.

 

If he pisses me off sommore, Ill find where he lives, tow e bike and scrap it and get my COE money.

 

Bro Jehuty, my previous advise stands.

 

Get rid of the insurance ASAP. you absolutely do NOT want him being involved in an accident now, because if that happens it is YOUR premium that will go up.

 

SMS/call him and give ultimatum: transfer by so-and-so date, or you will 1)cancel the insurance policy, and 2)report the bike as 'missing' by telling the police the exact circumstances. please be sure to do both if he really tries to call your bluff. the 'missing bike' report will absolve you of all responsibilities; no need bother towng the bike (since he already paid in full anyway).

 

without the 'missing bike' police report, you might still 1)be liable for fines; 2)suffer insurance consequences even though you already cancelled your policy; and 3)might be investigated or even found guilty of deliberately allowing uninsured rider.

[Demon]

Not true at all, don't give misleading information. Then by your logic only one person can ride a bike at a time, which is not true. If I have a family of 5 I can let all of them ride my bike as long as all take insurance on it.

 

Go check with your insurer on this matter. But i am sure ezzyoiler is right

[revhappy]

Go check with your insurer on this matter. But i am sure ezzyoiler is right

 

Dont need to check with insurer, its common sense to me. Do you know why riding without insurance is offence? It is because if you bang someone who will bear the expenses? Now if a person is not owner and gets insurance on bike and rides, then if he is not covered then isnt it an offence? To me if no coverage then it should be offence, then why have I never heard anyone getting summoned with insurance but not being owner?

So how about subrider? Do you agree that subrider is covered or not?

What is the difference between subrider and a seperate insurance? Only difference is subrider facility is to save cost of the insurance premium. Otherwise no difference b/w if you add subrider v/s take own insurance.

 

Here is the terms and conditions for NTUC:

http://www.income.com.sg/forms/insDocument/Motor-Bike.pdf

 

Tell me where it is written that you need to be the owner for them to cover the insurance.

 

Here are the definitions:

 

Policyholder, you or your refers to the person named in

the certificate of insurance and under whose name this

policy has been issued.

 

Primary driver refers to the owner of the vehicle as

shown in the schedule. If the owner is not licensed to

drive, the person designated as the main driver will be

the primary driver.

 

Your vehicle refers to the vehicle which is described in

the schedule or certificate of insurance.

Edited September 13, 2012 by revhappy

[ulysses_sc]

At least for Direct Asia, they are very specific about the owner:

 

http://www.directasia.com/sg/en/onlineinsurance/motorcycle-insurance/who-we-cover/

[revhappy]

At least for Direct Asia, they are very specific about the owner:

 

http://www.directasia.com/sg/en/onlineinsurance/motorcycle-insurance/who-we-cover/

 

IC. They are new kid on the block with cheaper premiums but more restrictions. I am with MSIG, was with NTUC earlier.

[ezzyoiler]

Not true at all, don't give misleading information. Then by your logic only one person can ride a bike at a time, which is not true. If I have a family of 5 I can let all of them ride my bike as long as all take insurance on it.

 

dont have to argue...call your insurance to confirm...

your logic is If I have a family of 5 I can let all of them ride my bike as long as all take insurance on it....this is inorrect as far as bike insurance is concerned.....the reason is to make sure owner is in the loop...as he is ultimately responsible for the bike..

for bikes...sub riders...but understand there is a limit on it too..only 1 is allowed..

cars insurance is a different ball game.

[revhappy]

dont have to argue...call your insurance to confirm...

your logic is If I have a family of 5 I can let all of them ride my bike as long as all take insurance on itthis is inorrect as far as bike insurance is concerned.....the reason is to make sure owner is in the loop...as he is ultimately responsible for the bike..

for bikes...sub riders...but understand there is a limit on it too..only 1 is allowed..

cars insurance is a different ball game.

 

Subriders there is no limit. You can have as many as you want, just that 1 is free. This I am confirm sure.

[Jehuty]

Bro Jehuty, my previous advise stands.

 

Get rid of the insurance ASAP. you absolutely do NOT want him being involved in an accident now, because if that happens it is YOUR premium that will go up.

 

SMS/call him and give ultimatum: transfer by so-and-so date, or you will 1)cancel the insurance policy, and 2)report the bike as 'missing' by telling the police the exact circumstances. please be sure to do both if he really tries to call your bluff. the 'missing bike' report will absolve you of all responsibilities; no need bother towng the bike (since he already paid in full anyway).

 

without the 'missing bike' police report, you might still 1)be liable for fines; 2)suffer insurance consequences even though you already cancelled your policy; and 3)might be investigated or even found guilty of deliberately allowing uninsured rider.

 

 

Done, I really tried to do this in a nice clean manner.

[Jehuty]

Where got? I thought bikes only ONE subrider amd he has to top up according to policy

[revhappy]

Where got? I thought bikes only ONE subrider amd he has to top up according to policy

 

Yes, all subriders need to top up if they are younger, but for NTUC the 1st subrider there is no admin fee(25$ I think) more than 1 subrider you need to pay the admin fee in addition to the premium top up

 

Again check in the NTUC policy terms and conditions:

The definition:

 

Named driver refers to the drivers named in the

schedule or certificate of insurance.

[Demon]

Dont need to check with insurer, its common sense to me. Do you know why riding without insurance is offence? It is because if you bang someone who will bear the expenses? Now if a person is not owner and gets insurance on bike and rides, then if he is not covered then isnt it an offence? To me if no coverage then it should be offence, then why have I never heard anyone getting summoned with insurance but not being owner?

So how about subrider? Do you agree that subrider is covered or not?

What is the difference between subrider and a seperate insurance? Only difference is subrider facility is to save cost of the insurance premium. Otherwise no difference b/w if you add subrider v/s take own insurance.

 

Here is the terms and conditions for NTUC:

http://www.income.com.sg/forms/insDocument/Motor-Bike.pdf

 

Tell me where it is written that you need to be the owner for them to cover the insurance.

 

Here are the definitions:

 

Policyholder, you or your refers to the person named in

the certificate of insurance and under whose name this

policy has been issued.

 

Primary driver refers to the owner of the vehicle as

shown in the schedule. If the owner is not licensed to

drive, the person designated as the main driver will be

the primary driver.

 

Your vehicle refers to the vehicle which is described in

the schedule or certificate of insurance.

 

If you are insured in such manner with ntuc, just called them to verify the facts, its only to your advantage.

 

Few years back, a friend wanted to use my spare bike so i insisted that he bought his own insurance then i found that it doesnt work this way.

[revhappy]

If you are insured in such manner with ntuc, just called them to verify the facts, its only to your advantage.

 

Few years back, a friend wanted to use my spare bike so i insisted that he bought his own insurance then i found that it doesnt work this way.

 

Call them also, cannot believe, lah. What if the person speaking is new and doesnt have enough knowledge. But terms and conditions is the best place to confirm.

BTW, in my case I am the only person riding my bike and I am the owner.

[ezzyoiler]

Subriders there is no limit. You can have as many as you want, just that 1 is free. This I am confirm sure.

thank you...now i know

[mechwira]

i also believe that, at least for some insurers such as NTUC, you can have any number of subriders. where only 1 sub-rider is registered, the premium is calculated on the more expensive between main holder and sub-rider. it is 'free' in the sense that you pay 'one premium' for two riders, just that it will be the more expensive of the two. where a second sub-rider is to be registered, you will pay a 'second premium' on top of the original. i am also aware that other insurers immediately charge 'second premium' for 1st sub-rider, and continue charging additional premiums for subsequent riders.

 

this was the wording on the application years ago when i bought my current ride, i cannot find it now.

 

i think (but i cannot be sure) what is not allowed is that you cant have two separate main policies tagged to a single bike. perhaps only one main policy per bike, and subsequent people who wish to ride must be sub-riders rather than taking out an additional main policy on top of existing. so no matter which sub-rider accident, the main policy holder will still suffer.

 

but at least for NTUC i do not think the main policy holder must be the registered owner. revhappy pointed out the line that says so. directasia refuses to do the same, thats their policy. and maybe there are also insurers who also refuse to take any more than 1 sub-rider. it all depends on the insurer what they want to enforce.

 

but so long as you are named sub-rider of stated bike, you are legal to ride. i dun understand the earlier line "many riders who are ignorant on this as they believe that once they have insurance in their name, they assume they are covered". but its true what, if you are named as rider in the insurance, you are covered.

[Jehuty]

i also believe that, at least for some insurers such as NTUC, you can have any number of subriders. where only 1 sub-rider is registered, the premium is calculated on the more expensive between main holder and sub-rider. it is 'free' in the sense that you pay 'one premium' for two riders, just that it will be the more expensive of the two. where a second sub-rider is to be registered, you will pay a 'second premium' on top of the original. i am also aware that other insurers immediately charge 'second premium' for 1st sub-rider, and continue charging additional premiums for subsequent riders.

 

this was the wording on the application years ago when i bought my current ride, i cannot find it now.

 

i think (but i cannot be sure) what is not allowed is that you cant have two separate main policies tagged to a single bike. perhaps only one main policy per bike, and subsequent people who wish to ride must be sub-riders rather than taking out an additional main policy on top of existing. so no matter which sub-rider accident, the main policy holder will still suffer.

 

but at least for NTUC i do not think the main policy holder must be the registered owner. revhappy pointed out the line that says so. directasia refuses to do the same, thats their policy. and maybe there are also insurers who also refuse to take any more than 1 sub-rider. it all depends on the insurer what they want to enforce.

 

but so long as you are named sub-rider of stated bike, you are legal to ride. i dun understand the earlier line "many riders who are ignorant on this as they believe that once they have insurance in their name, they assume they are covered". but its true what, if you are named as rider in the insurance, you are covered.

 

I think ntuc changed policy, now see rider experience too, i n my fren same age but he have more experience. I have to top up to 150 for like 3 years of difference.

[duo]

I think ntuc changed policy, now see rider experience too, i n my fren same age but he have more experience. I have to top up to 150 for like 3 years of difference.

Its been that way for quite sometime.

 

About the insurance thing. I feel as long your name is the sub rider or main rider in the insurance you are permitted to ride the bike. Otherwise all those still under hire purchase buy insurance for what? Since the bike is still not transferred under your name totally till you are done with the instalments its still owned by the bikeshop. I may be wrong though.

[Jehuty]

Anyway, the bugger thinks Im bluffing, after all I messaged asking when can transfer ownership and I will be pulling out the insurance, he replied with a 'k'. Truly pissing me off, is it possible for me to take the bike back and sell it to one who is more deserving?

[Demon]

?..... is it possible for me to take the bike back and sell it to one who is more deserving?

 

Thats not being gentlemanly since he has paid in full so technically he is the rightful owner.

 

I would not renew the insurance upon expiry, and write a him a letter, cc to LTA, send by registered mail to explain the situation and emphasize on the pertinent points such as buyer doesnt want to do owbership transfer, insurance expiry... Etc.

 

At least there is something to fall back should the buyer do something stupid like beating a red light and hitting a pedestrain.

 

In the eyes of the law, it its inevitable that you will be implicated but at least you can prove you have done your due diligence.

 

Good luck and hope you can resolve this problem amicably and promptly.

[Jehuty]

he hasn paid in full? then i would advise not to transfer ownership until the money has been paid in full. he might disappear after ownership transfer before full payment, leaving you in deep crap.

 

however, even with the bike ownership under you, you can still cancel insurance and force him take out his own insurance. you do not need to be the named owner to take out an insurance to ride the bike. is it he now sub-rider of your insurance? in which case i strongly suggest forcing him to take his own insurance. this is in fact more dangerous than traffic summons. you can properly cover yourself against traffic offences committed by him; but imagine he accident as your sub-rider: the claim is then against your insurance policy, and you can suffer insurance problems even if he was the one legally riding the bike involved in the accident, simply because the policy holder is you.

 

if you keep ownership until he pay in full, but he take out his own insurance policy without your name in it, then all that is left for you to worry is parking summons. parking summons no demerit points, BUT goes strictly to named owner. he play you out and refuse to pay, you will be saddled with the fines with no way out.

 

but once he pays in full, force him to transfer ownership by threatening to report the bike as 'missing'. this police report will absolve you of all offences related to the bike, including parking offences.

 

But i dunno if reporting loss is that simple.

[mechwira]

Anyway, the bugger thinks Im bluffing, after all I messaged asking when can transfer ownership and I will be pulling out the insurance, he replied with a 'k'. Truly pissing me off, is it possible for me to take the bike back and sell it to one who is more deserving?

 

bro, you really dun need to get yourself worked up.

 

the bike is legally yours, but the fella 'refuses' to give you physical possession of it. thats all you need to make a 'missing bike' police report. you just have to explain the key point to the police: that the fella refuse to give you a vehicle that is legally yours, and you are unable to contact him or find the bike. so just make the report, then cancel insurance. thats it. the police report will make it such that you no longer liable for any offenses related to the bike. same goes for insurance liability.

 

why want to bother with towing? in fact, you make the police report, if mata ever find the bike, they will impound the bike with LTA and then notify you (without any payment of cos since reported 'missing').

 

you sell the bike to a second guy, you putting yourself in more trouble. as unlikely as it may sound, technically the first guy can sue you in court for re-selling a bike that he had already fully paid for.

[mechwira]

But i dunno if reporting loss is that simple.

 

go to police post and explain the situation and ask if you can make the missing report. isn this far easier than trying to find the bike and calling for tow truck? as i understand it, the bike is legally yours and the fella is preventing you from possessing it. thats a criminal offense.

 

in the 'cars' thread, one guy rented out his car privately to someone who subsequently disappeared with the car. he lodged a report. dun assume its difficult before you try.

[revhappy]

go to police post and explain the situation and ask if you can make the missing report. isn this far easier than trying to find the bike and calling for tow truck? as i understand it, the bike is legally yours and the fella is preventing you from possessing it. thats a criminal offense.

 

in the 'cars' thread, one guy rented out his car privately to someone who subsequently disappeared with the car. he lodged a report. dun assume its difficult before you try.

 

There is difference b/w the car case and the bike case. In car case, it was not a "sale".

 

In this case, it is a "sale". Money has exchanged hands, so sale is completed. Only thing remaining is for the ownership transfer.

 

According to LTA website: "Within 7 days of a sale or change in possession of the vehicle, the current registered owner or the person/company taking possession of the vehicle must effect a transfer of vehicle. It is an offence not to do so."

 

http://www.onemotoring.com.sg/publish/onemotoring/en/lta_information_guidelines/checklist/ownership_transfer.html

 

If you read the statement, the key thing you get out of it is "sale" doesnt mean transfer. Sale has already happened in this case, because money changed hands and the buyer has taken possession.

 

Now only thing remaining is the transfer.

 

I dont think Jehuty can just go to the police and say bike missing. He has sold it to the person and taken money. So if he didnt give this info to the police then he is hiding facts and he is doing a crime.

 

So Police cannot do anything in this matter. I also dont know what exactly can be done in this case. Best way is sort this out amicably with the buyer. Try to be friendly with him. Call him for a coffee and meet up and ask him what exactly is his problem.

 

I would say that even offer him to give his money back and take the bike back to nullify the sale, atleast you have peace of mind.

 

If he still wants to keep the bike and also doesnt want to transfer, then my suggestion is keep all the records of everything carefully as proof and go and meet someone high up at LTA and tell them everything and ask them for suggestion. Maybe they can help you.

[Jehuty]

There is difference b/w the car case and the bike case. In car case, it was not a "sale".

 

In this case, it is a "sale". Money has exchanged hands, so sale is completed. Only thing remaining is for the ownership transfer.

 

According to LTA website: "Within 7 days of a sale or change in possession of the vehicle, the current registered owner or the person/company taking possession of the vehicle must effect a transfer of vehicle. It is an offence not to do so."

 

http://www.onemotoring.com.sg/publish/onemotoring/en/lta_information_guidelines/checklist/ownership_transfer.html

 

If you read the statement, the key thing you get out of it is "sale" doesnt mean transfer. Sale has already happened in this case, because money changed hands and the buyer has taken possession.

 

Now only thing remaining is the transfer.

 

I dont think Jehuty can just go to the police and say bike missing. He has sold it to the person and taken money. So if he didnt give this info to the police then he is hiding facts and he is doing a crime.

 

So Police cannot do anything in this matter. I also dont know what exactly can be done in this case. Best way is sort this out amicably with the buyer. Try to be friendly with him. Call him for a coffee and meet up and ask him what exactly is his problem.

 

I would say that even offer him to give his money back and take the bike back to nullify the sale, atleast you have peace of mind.

 

If he still wants to keep the bike and also doesnt want to transfer, then my suggestion is keep all the records of everything carefully as proof and go and meet someone high up at LTA and tell them everything and ask them for suggestion. Maybe they can help you.

 

Well he didnt pay for e insurance. The remainder rather.

[mechwira]

brothers....

 

at the end of the day, i am suggesting that jehuty go to police post, explain the circumstances, and request to report the bike as 'missing'. why want to say "maybe very difficult" or "police cannot do anything" before you even try?

 

besides, "police cannot do anything", you're not expecting them to do anything anyway. you're not interested in getting the bike back right? all you want is an official record that says "this other person has illegally taken possesion of a bike that is legally mine and therefore i do not wish to be held responsible for anything to do with the bike". its like credit card; you report it missing and aything charged to it after the report you will not be held liable. and please note, i am not at all implying to lie to the police or withhold info. i am suggesting telling them exactly the circumstances, and 'missing' in this case is the bike which is still legally jehuty's and he is prevented from re-taking possession. you just need to convince the police the other fella is really peventing you from retaking posession of the bike.

 

and bro revhappy, you just pointed ou that technically the other guy has indeed committed an offense by not effecting an ownership transfer. which all the more a police report should be made, and the report must be taken by the police precisely because an offense has been committed.

Edited September 14, 2012 by mechwira