Mito Riders

[kwyjibo]

This weekend CNY liao leh. I dont mind though cos morn still free. Pls cfm within the next 2 days cos if not I m going to change a new set of tyres for my 250 then I m def not going then with my 250.

 

Jon get 250! Next time then psycho Richard get. Then we can all smoke Kunli together with 2T.

Anyway saw someone selling in SBF a Replica 250 at $1500 though a bit ex since condition he described is so ****. Ar bor get Kram's air brushed venom 250. Chio!

 

Evo7 has 34BHP at crank compared to Evo6 32BHP. Evo7 has higher compression ratio and weighs 4kg lighter. But pls take in mind that Evo7 is old so such specs usually do not hold anymore.

However I love Evo7 for e CF end can. Other than that no considerable diff cos the 6th gear ratio of both models r e same.

[jonathan543]

as once a mech had said, u muz ride at least once a 2t 250cc in ur lifetime! the way the sudden power surge arrives when the valve opens is unbelievably quick and swift... damned i'm missing ben's rs250 already!

haha...

[witchblade]

Originally posted by jonathan543@February 13, 2007 08:48 am

plus the proper technique to shift up when u wot, is not to use the clutch at all, since the rpm would drop quite abit down. u should close the throttle a tiny bit, at the same time kick up. if u do it correctly, the gear should change smoothly with minimal drop in the rpm. the bike should accelerate faster than when the clutch was engaged.

of course, power is nothing without control and skills(i found that out when trying the rs250), and how fast the bike can accelerate and reaching the top, still depends mainly on the rider!

true. i agree on this part as it is the way a real race does, without using the clutch for up gear n down gear. But the only difference with the real race: lets say moto gp, does pple know tat they spend really alot of $$ n very frequently in their race & track session,they always often change their parts. but i have a question of your to think? juz a 2cent n its the truth, whn u do not use the clutch even thou at right accerlation n smooth flow of changing, it def works on up gear n down gear. it has been proven and done on other bikes n bigger bikes. But, looking at the long run, does the person wan to have a higher n faster serious wear n tears? compare to the norm of using the clutch. If you have the alot of cash, by any mean, go ahead with it. but if the person have tight cash flow, i would advice not to do on any gears.

 

i do agree with you abt power is nothing without control n skills. plus alot of pple cn zoom zoom real fast on the straights but often at the corners, they really slow down. with alot of powers, is a person able to fully utilize the power to the max? that is also one question.

[Kuro_Tenshi]

from my 2 cents worth of view, i think it's a pretty stupid idea to shift gears w/o clutching in. yes i know it can be done.. yes i know you will feel more like a racer.. yes i know it's much faster.. BUT how do you compare a USD$3,000,000/- (Three Million US Dollars) moto GP bike with your how much worth of street legal bike?

 

Do you know how much technology there is on the moto GP bike den on urs? the clutch and all the moving parts on the bike is much looser than on regular street bikes, thus creating lesser frictions. it's clutch auto engage the split seconds the rider moves the gear shifter lever, faster than u can blink ur eyes, does yours? their mechanic tore down the engine and rebuild it after every track session. do you?

 

you see, what i'm trying to say is that.. if you follow what they do in moto GP on your street bike.. in the long run you just have to get a new engine..

[witchblade]

nice touch~~ and tats very true. lol~~

[jonathan543]

well for starters, motogp bikes uses quick shifter, dat is, they can hold throttle while changing gear. the computor senses the gear shift and cuts the engine's power for very short instant. when the shift is completed the power cames back again.

these happens in a split sec, and did not engage the clutch in any way.

 

most people had the impression that you will damage/wear out the clutch plates when u shift w/o engaging the clutch. it is wrong!

clutch plates wore out koz of the frequent engaging and disengaging of the clutch(moving off from a stop or a slope, slow speed control, etc) , causing them to be seperated and pressed together many times. therefore the friction needed to engage the plates together is wearing out the plates. when u half clutch, the wearing rate shoots up even more!

yes, when u shift w/o using the clutch, u are actually taking a risk in damaging/wearing the gearbox engagement gears.... only the low rpm/speed.

let's face it, we do experience sometimes ma... when u tried to shift up to the 2nd /3rd gear, sometimes it slips into neutral/ false neutrals in between gears. and u can feel the gears grinding as it slips. or how about trying to shift to neutral when the bike is still slowing down from the 3rd gear?

not fault of ours, but most prob the gearbox is getting old and dun engage properly. but wad i'm trying to say here is, even when we shifted properly, the gearbox do still get damaged! it's not 100% fool proof!

it is not recommended to shift w/o the clutch on slow/cruising speeds, the gears most prob will not change smoothly w/o a bit of grinding, unless with alot of practise.

but so far, on high speeds using wot(wide open throttle), i did not even experienced once that the gear slipped, or shifted roughly/with some grinding when shifting w/o clutching in!

the higher gear would juz smoothly shift in the instant the throttle was close a tiny bit. it's foolproof- if the rpm did not come down enough, the gear will not shift even when ur kicking up the gear lever hard. so it's actually a matter of experimenting on how much the rpm should come down be4 the gear would shift up. it required juz a tiny drop in rpm!

i supposed all the gears inside the gearbox are spinning so fast that the changing gear would slip into higher gear smoothly and easily.

and i can tell u ur actually saving ur clutch plates in doing so, since they are not used in the gear shifting!

and i did specifically mentioned in my earlier posts dat gear shifting w/o engaging the clutch is highly recommended for wot only, for minimal drop in rpm in between shifts and faster acceleration upon changing to the higher gear...

[witchblade]

omg... u dun need to half clutch at all~~ all u need to set ur clutch far so tat the tension wont be so tight n won't easily snap.. . have u tried asking alot of the racer mechanic abt wat u juz said w/o using clutch for st bike? using bit of clutch with bit open throttle,u cn engage the gear n minimising n thre is really minimal drop in rpm. tats why i state timing n clutching in whn engaging the gear to minimise it.

and 2ndly,, im so opening my mouth on ur quote: "i supposed all the gears inside the gearbox are spinning so fast that the changing gear would slip into higher gear smoothly and easily.

and i can tell u ur actually saving ur clutch plates in doing so, since they are not used in the gear shifting!" this is so uh arg... no no..

[jonathan543]

Originally posted by Kuro_Tenshi@February 14, 2007 12:01 am

from my 2 cents worth of view, i think it's a pretty stupid idea to shift gears w/o clutching in. yes i know it can be done.. yes i know you will feel more like a racer.. yes i know it's much faster.. BUT how do you compare a USD$3,000,000/- (Three Million US Dollars) moto GP bike with your how much worth of street legal bike?

 

Do you know how much technology there is on the moto GP bike den on urs? the clutch and all the moving parts on the bike is much looser than on regular street bikes, thus creating lesser frictions. it's clutch auto engage the split seconds the rider moves the gear shifter lever, faster than u can blink ur eyes, does yours? their mechanic tore down the engine and rebuild it after every track session. do you?

 

you see, what i'm trying to say is that.. if you follow what they do in moto GP on your street bike.. in the long run you just have to get a new engine..

well, actually u can tell these to those whom like to engine brake on 2t bikes. and to those whom think the more 2t oil being intaked, the more protection it gets and reduces the chance of piston seizure.

 

if u noe how a 2t engine works, using engine brake will kill it slowly, wearing out the bearings and piston rings and in worst cases, overheating and risk seizure of the piston!

too much 2t oil intake WILL lean out the mixture inside the combustion chamber, leading to overheating and possibly melting the piston top through time(given the jettings are optimal)and seizure of the piston.

yet ppl now still asked, why the motogp 2t bikes loved to engine brake in corners/when slowing down?(so that should be the proper thing to do??)

why dun the motogp bikes blip their throttles after the bike had wot for some time, although that is a sensible thing to do to cool off the engine?(blipping throttles are for showoffs/challenge ppl to a race?)

 

do u noe motogp bikes all uses pure distilled water as a coolant? why street bikes like ours muz have an additive(coolant concentrate) in our coolant? does more additive helps in making the bike cooler? NO!!!

pure water IS the best and the most idea material as a coolant. dats y motogp bikes are all using! the additives are there to prevent corrosion to the coolant system, since we are not being sponsered to tear down everything after every ride!

[jonathan543]

Originally posted by witchblade@February 14, 2007 01:05 am

omg... u dun need to half clutch at all~~ all u need to set ur clutch far so tat the tension wont be so tight n won't easily snap.. n use bit of clutch to engage the gear. have u tried asking alot of the racer mechanic abt wat u juz said w/o using clutch. plus using bit of clutch with bit open throttle,u cn engage the gear n minimising n thre is really minimal drop in rpm. tats why i state timing n clutching in whn engaging the gear to minimise it.

and 2ndly,, im so opening my mouth on ur quote: "i supposed all the gears inside the gearbox are spinning so fast that the changing gear would slip into higher gear smoothly and easily.

and i can tell u ur actually saving ur clutch plates in doing so, since they are not used in the gear shifting!" this is so uh arg... no no..

the term half clutching refers to when u need to accelerate faster through ur gear(making it reach redline faster), u can carefully depress the clutch lever to the biting point where the engine rpm started to raise, the bike will suddenly accelerate harder. sounds harsh but most ppl do when they're lz to drop a gear down yet wan to accelerate more.

since the clutch plates are being pressed constantly together through the gear shifts and not subjected to being seperated and being pressed together, again and again for the friction to engage the plates, are the plates indeed being saved from wearing out?

i refer to ur quote on setting the clutch lever far so the tension wun be so tight... etc. i assumed u meant setting the biting point closer to the grip, instead of further away from it?

would assist in the ease of engaging the clutch lever, but if being set too near to the grip, the clutch plates would still be in half clutched situation(not completely disengaged), where the plates will be slowly wearing themselves out whenever u had engaged it. tell tale signs would be difficuilty in kicking to neutral, bike surging forward when clutched in and engaged the 1st gear, or the bike died off if the idle rpm is being set too low... though the signs also signaled the plates had almost worn out.

[jonathan543]

oh and i definately needed to add an important point!

all those i suggested are juz pointers on how to be able to clear through ur every gear changes/ reaching redline faster and more efficiently with minimal drop in rpm.

the light engagement to the clutch during gear shifts, proper timing and techniques that are debated above are, of course proper and safe.

the pointers by me are explained that they would be more efficient/faster through gearshifts.

actually these are discussed be4 in the technical section of the aprilia rider's club forum, and do work very well with no signs of damage to the mentioned part.

i'm juz sharing wad i've learnt from the older and very informative posts from last time. kindly ignore me if my explaination is wrong or unacceptable.

but i'm pretty sure if u tried out, with proper practise and technique, u might agreed with me on the points, since i'm also once in doubt too...

[witchblade]

ermm... not closer to the grip.. away => nt near to the grip (as in towar the grip) , near to the grip will have more tension. n 2ndly, im saying whn depressing the clutch, its almost close to the biting pt (wic is why am using the term abit or should i use the term partially clutching in) yet thus its still being ensure tat the clutch n the gear is engage. therefore, the clutch plate will be completely disengaged upon releasing the clutch.

and i do know wat is half clutching.

[witchblade]

sry.. i do not agree with you on doing w/o clutch cos i know wats the difference and have tested out way some time back. and i know yah,its true abt engaging w/o clutch in term of efficency n faster. have u really really tried in looking at a very very long run period of time? if only during the short period, then of course u won't notice the wear n tear. im not the only one who have test out the different styles n looking at efficency, wear n tear parts.

[jonathan543]

hahah... sometimes i think i tried too hard to explain and messed up everything in the end. cheers and cya on the 24th meetup!

[Father John]

Originally posted by jonathan543@February 14, 2007 12:43 am

most people had the impression that you will damage/wear out the clutch plates when u shift w/o engaging the clutch. it is wrong!

clutch plates wore out koz of the frequent engaging and disengaging of the clutch(moving off from a stop or a slope, slow speed control, etc) , causing them to be seperated and pressed together many times. therefore the friction needed to engage the plates together is wearing out the plates. when u half clutch, the wearing rate shoots up even more!

yes, when u shift w/o using the clutch, u are actually taking a risk in damaging/wearing the gearbox engagement gears.... only the low rpm/speed.

let's face it, we do experience sometimes ma... when u tried to shift up to the 2nd /3rd gear, sometimes it slips into neutral/ false neutrals in between gears. and u can feel the gears grinding as it slips. or how about trying to shift to neutral when the bike is still slowing down from the 3rd gear?

not fault of ours, but most prob the gearbox is getting old and dun engage properly. but wad i'm trying to say here is, even when we shifted properly, the gearbox do still get damaged! it's not 100% fool proof!

it is not recommended to shift w/o the clutch on slow/cruising speeds, the gears most prob will not change smoothly w/o a bit of grinding, unless with alot of practise.

but so far, on high speeds using wot(wide open throttle), i did not even experienced once that the gear slipped, or shifted roughly/with some grinding when shifting w/o clutching in!

the higher gear would juz smoothly shift in the instant the throttle was close a tiny bit. it's foolproof- if the rpm did not come down enough, the gear will not shift even when ur kicking up the gear lever hard. so it's actually a matter of experimenting on how much the rpm should come down be4 the gear would shift up. it required juz a tiny drop in rpm!

i supposed all the gears inside the gearbox are spinning so fast that the changing gear would slip into higher gear smoothly and easily.

and i can tell u ur actually saving ur clutch plates in doing so, since they are not used in the gear shifting!

and i did specifically mentioned in my earlier posts dat gear shifting w/o engaging the clutch is highly recommended for wot only, for minimal drop in rpm in between shifts and faster acceleration upon changing to the higher gear...

Firstly, I want ask, are you a mechanic or do you know anything about engineering? Because the point here is this. If clutching in when shifting up gears will damage your clutch plates, tell me why all over the world, professional instructors tell us to clutch in when change gears? If it were to wear the clutch plates out so fast, why they teach it anyway? If you know anything about bike engineering, you'll know that when you clutch in, the clutch disengages from the gear box. If you just change the gears without using the clutch, it creates more friction and more wear and tear.

 

I know what you mean by that technique, I used to do that until my mechanic told me it'd be high gear wear and so now, I clutch in near the biting point when I kick up the gear, it works perfectly.

 

I'd like also like to say, it's logic to know when you have higher rpm and higher speed, the engine is generating more power, and so the clutch plates and the gears are grinding with more force, thus creating higher wear and tear. Lower gears have more tourque, less power, it's logic.

 

Quote from you:i supposed all the gears inside the gearbox are spinning so fast that the changing gear would slip into higher gear smoothly and easily.

 

What do you mean by that? Higher gears have lower torque, but higher velocity and force, thus if you don't clutch in properly, the wear and tear will be higher.

[fnee]

Originally posted by jonathan543@February 13, 2007 08:48 am

actually wads the defination of "fast"?

have a higher top speed or reaching it's top speed faster?

supposed got 2 mitos, one tuned for a top speed of 170km/h, but crappy acceleration; another tuned for a top of 155km/h but can reached its top alot faster then the previous bike.

let's not say on the track, supposed both bikes tried their top on the 2nd link(assuming both riders had the same level of skill and weight), who will win..................

 

like what my mech says, it's not the top speed that matters, it's the time taken to hit top speed that matters.

 

for me there are two ways of shifting gears with minimal drop in RPM.

 

1. clutchless upshift (which i prefer)

 

or

 

2. don't close throttle and pull in the clutch slightly and shift up (which makes the bike scream and destroys the clutch plates )

 

if method 1 is done correctly, i believe the wear and tear for the gearbox is minimal. having a further biting point would help if you plan to do clutchless upshifting.

 

just my 2 cents.

[witchblade]

Originally posted by fnee@February 14, 2007 02:53 am

like what my mech says, it's not the top speed that matters, it's the time taken to hit top speed that matters.

 

for me there are two ways of shifting gears with minimal drop in RPM.

 

 

 

2. don't close throttle and pull in the clutch slightly and shift up (which makes the bike scream and destroys the clutch plates )

 

if method 1 is done correctly, i believe the wear and tear for the gearbox is minimal. having a further biting point would help if you plan to do clutchless upshifting.

 

wat the ... erm.. you sure it will scream n damage it? .unless u nv nv close throttle at all. plus its so erm.. unbelievable at the part u say will damage the clutch plate. haha~~ plus ur suppose to nt close fully whn doing this method.

[Father John]

Originally posted by jonathan543@February 14, 2007 01:28 am

the term half clutching refers to when u need to accelerate faster through ur gear(making it reach redline faster), u can carefully depress the clutch lever to the biting point where the engine rpm started to raise, the bike will suddenly accelerate harder. sounds harsh but most ppl do when they're lz to drop a gear down yet wan to accelerate more.

since the clutch plates are being pressed constantly together through the gear shifts and not subjected to being seperated and being pressed together, again and again for the friction to engage the plates, are the plates indeed being saved from wearing out?

i refer to ur quote on setting the clutch lever far so the tension wun be so tight... etc. i assumed u meant setting the biting point closer to the grip, instead of further away from it?

would assist in the ease of engaging the clutch lever, but if being set too near to the grip, the clutch plates would still be in half clutched situation(not completely disengaged), where the plates will be slowly wearing themselves out whenever u had engaged it. tell tale signs would be difficuilty in kicking to neutral, bike surging forward when clutched in and engaged the 1st gear, or the bike died off if the idle rpm is being set too low... though the signs also signaled the plates had almost worn out.

I believe you forgot your bike lessons at the driving centre. The meaning of half clutch is to clutch in near to or past the biting point. Did'nt you remember your 1st 2B lesson where you had to control the bike at half clutch and bang the tyres? Half clutch control taught by the driving schools is for slow speed control or using to SLOWLY build up the power in that gear.

 

Another thing, I once tuned my biting point too close to the grip and ended having to change my clutch plates. Listening to what people have to say, I agree with them about tuning your biting point further from the grip. Point being that by just pulling in the clutch slightly, you can disengage the gear. If you tune the biting point too close to the grip, you create too much tension in the clutch wire especially when you turn the handle bar to one side and your clutch plates will wear out like mine.

 

The gearbox will wear out over time, and so finding neutral gear will be more difficult. I've seen many people having difficulty kicking into neutral when parking. Simple, just clutch in, turn off the engine, release clutch, clutch in again and many times if not all the time, you'll be able to kick into neutral. If no, maybe your gear may not be engaged properly, so just push it forward and back for the gear to engage and repeat the steps.

[Father John]

Originally posted by fnee@February 14, 2007 02:53 am

for me there are two ways of shifting gears with minimal drop in RPM.

 

1. clutchless upshift (which i prefer)

 

or

 

2. don't close throttle and pull in the clutch slightly and shift up (which makes the bike scream and destroys the clutch plates )

 

if method 1 is done correctly, i believe the wear and tear for the gearbox is minimal. having a further biting point would help if you plan to do clutchless upshifting.

 

just my 2 cents.

Like I said, my mechanic told me shiftless clutch will have heavier wear and tear. I used to do that.

 

don't close throttle and pull in the clutch slightly and shift up (which makes the bike scream and destroys the clutch plates

 

Personally, when I down shift, I'll clutch in past the biting point, blip the throttle (blip= open throttle), at the same time, drop my gear, then release clutch slowly. If you don't believe, go hear the big bikes when they drop gear without blipping, you'll hear a loud sound. That's because you're dropping gears from a less torquey gear to a more torquey gear. Blipping would be like jumping from 2nd storey to 1st storey, and not blipping would be like 5th storey to 1st storey, which would be more painful? I know blipping works because I tried in on my super4, before and after, and found that blipping has a nicer sound when down shifting.

[fnee]

2. don't close throttle and pull in the clutch slightly and shift up (which makes the bike scream and destroys the clutch plates icon-giddy.gif )

 

if you pull in the clutch even slightly when throttle is not closed, won't your RPM rise even more (let's say you're already high revving since you're probably in a rush to pick up speed or smth). when your RPM rises when you clutch in WITHOUT closing throttle, won't your bike sound like it's screaming?

 

well mine does, doesn't yours?

 

since when did i say i closed throttle and the bike still screams when i clutch in?

[fnee]

Personally, when I down shift, I'll clutch in past the biting point, blip the throttle (blip= open throttle), at the same time, drop my gear, then release clutch slowly. If you don't believe, go hear the big bikes when they drop gear without blipping, you'll hear a loud sound. That's because you're dropping gears from a less torquey gear to a more torquey gear. Blipping would be like jumping from 2nd storey to 1st storey, and not blipping would be like 5th storey to 1st storey, which would be more painful? I know blipping works because I tried in on my super4, before and after, and found that blipping has a nicer sound when down shifting.

 

well i guess blipping the throttle when downshifting is to prevent engine braking? cause when you blip your RPM rises and when you realease the clutch, the RPM is almost level as to that of the lower gear? i used to do that, but kinda troublesome trying to control my strength on the front brake, turning the throttle slightly, and clutching in. lol. i tend to squeeze the front lever a little harder when i blip the throttle.

[witchblade]

Originally posted by Father John@February 14, 2007 03:05 am

I believe you forgot your bike lessons at the driving centre. The meaning of half clutch is to clutch in near to or past the biting point. Did'nt you remember your 1st 2B lesson where you had to control the bike at half clutch and bang the tyres? Half clutch control taught by the driving schools is for slow speed control or using to SLOWLY build up the power in that gear.

 

Another thing, I once tuned my biting point too close to the grip and ended having to change my clutch plates. Listening to what people have to say, I agree with them about tuning your biting point further from the grip. Point being that by just pulling in the clutch slightly, you can disengage the gear. If you tune the biting point too close to the grip, you create too much tension in the clutch wire especially when you turn the handle bar to one side and your clutch plates will wear out like mine.

 

The gearbox will wear out over time, and so finding neutral gear will be more difficult. I've seen many people having difficulty kicking into neutral when parking. Simple, just clutch in, turn off the engine, release clutch, clutch in again and many times if not all the time, you'll be able to kick into neutral. If no, maybe your gear may not be engaged properly, so just push it forward and back for the gear to engage and repeat the steps.

true true~~

[witchblade]

Originally posted by fnee@February 14, 2007 03:18 am

2. don't close throttle and pull in the clutch slightly and shift up (which makes the bike scream and destroys the clutch plates icon-giddy.gif )

 

if you pull in the clutch even slightly when throttle is not closed, won't your RPM rise even more (let's say you're already high revving since you're probably in a rush to pick up speed or smth). when your RPM rises when you clutch in WITHOUT closing throttle, won't your bike sound like it's screaming?

 

well mine does, doesn't yours?

 

since when did i say i closed throttle and the bike still screams when i clutch in?

mine doesn't if u follow up the method with wat i've said in the recently previous post. unless ur doing the wrong method of nt even closing to certain extend of the throttle n the clutch biting.

[Father John]

Originally posted by fnee@February 14, 2007 03:20 am

well i guess blipping the throttle when downshifting is to prevent engine braking? cause when you blip your RPM rises and when you realease the clutch, the RPM is almost level as to that of the lower gear? i used to do that, but kinda troublesome trying to control my strength on the front brake, turning the throttle slightly, and clutching in. lol. i tend to squeeze the front lever a little harder when i blip the throttle.

Nope, you don't prevent engine braking. I don't see what's wrong with engine braking. I love it. Think about it, it you're travelling at such a high speed, especially on a big bike, you definately need your brakes and engine braking to slow you down. Know what you mean about pressing your brakes harder. It takes some to get used to, braking, blipping and down shifting.

 

If i'm not wrong, blipping is better on the engine overall, to reduce the wear and tear. I know it's recommended especially for those going to track because on the track, you are whacking at very high rmp's. You blip to counter the impact downshifting has on the engine. Dunno how to explain in engineering terms. Just that when you blip, your rpm should be equal to or higher than the rpm that the pistons are moving at. This have to feel the bike, there's no sterotype, depends on the situation.

[fnee]

haiyoo.. i already said for me there are two ways of shifting gears with minimal drop in RPM... i was referring to my methods, not yours.

 

misunderstanding

[fnee]

Originally posted by Father John@February 14, 2007 03:34 am

Nope, you don't prevent engine braking. I don't see what's wrong with engine braking. I love it. Think about it, it you're travelling at such a high speed, especially on a big bike, you definately need your brakes and engine braking to slow you down. Know what you mean about pressing your brakes harder. It takes some to get used to, braking, blipping and down shifting.

 

If i'm not wrong, blipping is better on the engine overall, to reduce the wear and tear. I know it's recommended especially for those going to track because on the track, you are whacking at very high rmp's. You blip to counter the impact downshifting has on the engine. Dunno how to explain in engineering terms. Just that when you blip, your rpm should be equal to or higher than the rpm that the pistons are moving at. This have to feel the bike, there's no sterotype, depends on the situation.

hmm i thought all along blipping is to prevent engine braking as during heavy engine braking.

 

come to think of it, it was richard frm this thread who taught me clutchless upshifting. lol.