Breaking in of engine

[scubasimon]

i think each has merits...but i don't see why anyone wouldn't go with what the manufacturer has recommended.

[stsoh]

Till today,I still duno which one is better. Unless someone is rich enough to buy 2 brand new bikes and try. Den dyno and strip both engines to inspec.

 

But regardless of hard or soft break in,early oil change is a must. Mineral oil is v cheap,change a few times wouldn't hurt

 

with today manufacturing technologies, why do u want to use mineral oil to wear out ur newly brought engine?

today the tolerance r 0.001+- as compare to yester-years tolerance 0.01+-.

metallurgy tech have improved tremendously, yet still doing unimagined damage to ur close tolerance built engine.

yes, i would change oil but will use full synthetic engine oil.

stop going the old ways if u r mechanically trained, think/analyst/advance.

[stsoh]

another pointer:

those whom use mineral oil n did hard break-in when compare to those whom did manufacturers' break-in recommendation;

mineral + hard break-in = engine very noisy n rough.

manufacturers' recommended break-in = engine smoother n quieter.

 

does it gives better hp, not necessary coz even stock engines without any mods will have a few hp+- differences.

[DM]

i still think it's ok to use mineral oil for the first 1000+ km to help the transmission wear in since the oil gets changed out so often anyway (no harm to the engine if that's the case). there are people who use mineral oil on their modern bikes but they swop out their oil every 1000km or so, i guess that equates to using fully synthetic oil and running it for ~4000-5000km before an oil change?

anyway, i advocate the good ol fashion method of break in. slow and steady with an occasional whack when the engine is hot. all done with mineral oil till the stipulated mileage in the manual before i switch to semi or fully synth

Edited February 19, 2010 by DM

[stsoh]

another pointer:

change oil too frequently, damage earth environment.

save the earth.

[DM]

the oil gets recycled, doesn't get dumped anywhere (unless you're talking about those idiots who DIY their oil change and pour used oil into the drain) if i see any of them doing that, i'll stop them and give em an earful, so irresponsible..

[xXxRatedxXx]

i still think it's ok to use mineral oil for the first 1000+ km to help the transmission wear in since the oil gets changed out so often anyway (no harm to the engine if that's the case). there are people who use mineral oil on their modern bikes but they swop out their oil every 1000km or so, i guess that equates to using fully synthetic oil and running it for ~4000-5000km before an oil change?

anyway, i advocate the good ol fashion method of break in. slow and steady with an occasional whack when the engine is hot. all done with mineral oil till the stipulated mileage in the manual before i switch to semi or fully synth

 

I'm with flea on this one.

[omnislash]

another point is piston ring n cylinder linear surface contact faces r super harden to prevent wears if u can mate it by hard break-in, tat means it can be worn out than it's supposed design function.

 

Just pertaining to this statement:

 

From the website:

 

"The honed crosshatch pattern in the cylinder bore acts like a file to allow the rings to wear. The rings quickly wear down the "peaks" of this roughness, regardless of how hard the engine is run."

 

My understanding is that the honed surface peak wears out but after that, the wear resistant property kicks in.

[stsoh]

tat's why mototune mentioned on the first stage of rebuilt engine run.

new production bikes been run on the quality control check run, not initial stage anymore.

mototune even mentioned if u did not do hard-break-in properly, need to rebuilt engine again.

peak might wear on initial contact as burr bits.

properties stay as hard as ever, no such thing as kicks in later.

Edited February 19, 2010 by stsoh

[omnislash]

wait wait, got things a bit confused...

Edited February 19, 2010 by omnislash

[omnislash]

Sry bout the "kick in" expression.

 

From mototune website:

 

"An additional factor that you may not have realized, is that the person at the dealership who set up your bike probably blasted your brand new bike pretty hard on the "test run". So, without realizing it, that adrenaline crazed set - up mechanic actually did you a huge favor !!"

 

From this statement, am I right to infer that mototune is referring to new bikes u get from the dealer, which has also been factory run while tested. And even so, it still requires the hard break in technique contrary to what you suggest that mototune is only referring to VIRGIN engines and/or rebuilt engines?

[omnislash]

beside the cylinder linear need to be cross-hashed so tat oil can be cling on linear surface for lubrication.

 

oil on the surface of linear acts as a seal n lubrication which many forgets.

if piston rings n linear surface r perfectly mated, no oil means no sealing n lubrication.

 

1 discussion point and 1 question on this paragraph.

 

From what I understand from the website and expressing it in the simplest form as I can.......

 

The new piston ring isnt a perfect mate with the cylinder. With a hard break in, you force the ring outwards to "perfectly" mate to the cylinder. Minimal gap will exist but because of the crosshatched pattern only and not because of poor mating (resulting in relatively large gaps).

 

A soft break in prevents a good mating because the ring wasn't pressed hard enough on the surface of the cylinder. Your "perfectly" wasn't mototune's perfectly, I think.

 

And the question:

 

U said the oil is for sealing? Seal against what may I know? The hot combustion gases?

[taaouicha]

Hum interesting thread o.O

What if u use a dyno to break in a new engine?

Will the piston rings seal perfectly?

[omnislash]

Hum interesting thread o.O

What if u use a dyno to break in a new engine?

Will the piston rings seal perfectly?

 

As per the website, it provides 3 methods of breaking in. If done correctly, they give the same result, as per the website.

[stsoh]

1 discussion point and 1 question on this paragraph.

 

From what I understand from the website and expressing it in the simplest form as I can.......

 

The new piston ring isnt a perfect mate with the cylinder. With a hard break in, you force the ring outwards to "perfectly" mate to the cylinder. Minimal gap will exist but because of the crosshatched pattern only and not because of poor mating (resulting in relatively large gaps).

 

A soft break in prevents a good mating because the ring wasn't pressed hard enough on the surface of the cylinder. Your "perfectly" wasn't mototune's perfectly, I think.

 

And the question:

 

U said the oil is for sealing? Seal against what may I know? The hot combustion gases?

sorry to all,

it is pointless n endless, i'll stop discussion not to confuse the subject.

it is subjective, only going thru trials n errors will result be shown.

there's always pro n con for either methods, do wat u want.

[Raptor]

My last 4 bikes that I bought brand new were taken from the shop and ridden to the track within the next few days for a hard run in on the track.

 

All the bikes were ridden with throttles wide open on gears 3, 4 and 5.

 

All the bikes did not suffer any piston rings problem, the cylinder walls were polished clean with no marks. No oil burning whatsoever.

 

I will never go back to conventional way of slow run ins.

 

Just for sharing.

[biting_point]

Till today,I still duno which one is better. Unless someone is rich enough to buy 2 brand new bikes and try. Den dyno and strip both engines to inspec.

 

But regardless of hard or soft break in,early oil change is a must. Mineral oil is v cheap,change a few times wouldn't hurt

 

do a search, i remember seeing a website that claims that they brought 2 new bikes to test the difference in bhp after run in on a dyno..

 

of cuz, hard run in reaps higher bhp..

 

in the end, it's your bike, it's up to you if you trust the manufacturer or trust the hard break in method..

 

i chose hard break in..

[Terrible One]

another pointer:

those whom use mineral oil n did hard break-in when compare to those whom did manufacturers' break-in recommendation;

mineral + hard break-in = engine very noisy n rough.

manufacturers' recommended break-in = engine smoother n quieter.

 

does it gives better hp, not necessary coz even stock engines without any mods will have a few hp+- differences.

 

so where did u get that info from? Got data?

[stsoh]

sorry, i dun want to discussion this anymore.

u want data....just go n listen how rough their engine runs (those whom had done hard break-in).

[Raptor]

with today manufacturing technologies, why do u want to use mineral oil to wear out ur newly brought engine?

today the tolerance r 0.001+- as compare to yester-years tolerance 0.01+-.

metallurgy tech have improved tremendously, yet still doing unimagined damage to ur close tolerance built engine.

yes, i would change oil but will use full synthetic engine oil.

stop going the old ways if u r mechanically trained, think/analyst/advance.

 

Fully synthetic oils are meant for engines that are raced at maxed rpms on the track. Thats what these oils were made for. These oils were developed for race engines.

 

Using fully synthetic oils for normal every day riding is an overkill and a total waste of money. The oil will never be fully utilised for what it can do... unless you are one of those who redline all the gears from one traffic light to the next.

 

Oil is for lubrication, cooling and retention of carbon by products in suspension... which is why oil turns black with use. It makes more sense to use mineral or semi syn oils and change it out more frequently...eg 1500 KM or once a month than to put in synthetic oil and leave it for 5000 KM or more. All the while the dirt that is suspended in the oil is being circulated and coated all over the insides of the engine.

 

Its time to stop being conned by the oil companies advertisement gimmicks and admit to the fact that even with fully synthetic oil in your bike... it will never and can never perform like those race machines the oil was formulated for.

[xXxRatedxXx]

Fully synthetic oils are meant for engines that are raced at maxed rpms on the track. Thats what these oils were made for. These oils were developed for race engines.

 

Using fully synthetic oils for normal every day riding is an overkill and a total waste of money. The oil will never be fully utilised for what it can do... unless you are one of those who redline all the gears from one traffic light to the next.

 

Oil is for lubrication, cooling and retention of carbon by products in suspension... which is why oil turns black with use. It makes more sense to use mineral or semi syn oils and change it out more frequently...eg 1500 KM or once a month than to put in synthetic oil and leave it for 5000 KM or more. All the while the dirt that is suspended in the oil is being circulated and coated all over the insides of the engine.

 

Its time to stop being conned by the oil companies advertisement gimmicks and admit to the fact that even with fully synthetic oil in your bike... it will never and can never perform like those race machines the oil was formulated for.

 

I agree completely with raptor on this....

 

Btw Stsoh were/are you a mechanic? You seem quite knowledgeable on this subject.

[omnislash]

sorry to all,

it is pointless n endless, i'll stop discussion not to confuse the subject.

it is subjective, only going thru trials n errors will result be shown.

there's always pro n con for either methods, do wat u want.

 

Purely for discussion and gaining new knowledge. Thanx.

[Raptor]

Purely for discussion and gaining new knowledge. Thanx.

 

Thats what this forum is all about, ain't it? A source of information and a place to ask questions and tap on the experience of others.

 

"Experience is a very good teacher, but sometimes she can be most unforgiving".

[stsoh]

I agree completely with raptor on this....

 

Btw Stsoh were/are you a mechanic? You seem quite knowledgeable on this subject.

 

i've been working mostly with marine to aircraft turbine engines for over 2 decades.

i've seen many pistons n linears than most, cross-hatch marks on linear can hardly be worn out.

 

nowadays full synthetic engine oils r mostly hydrocrack processed unless it stated in it's ingredient tat it contain either pao, ester or poly ester then itself is a truly group 4 or 5 full syn eo.

otherwise it's a totally BS.

[stsoh]

here a tip for all, u dun have to wear out ur engine to achieve clean internal.

by proper tune air/fuel mixture n run at 600~800 deg C, it's self clean.

EFI can be more manageable with pc3.

 

 

Extracts from NGK spark plug, Air-Fuel Mixture:

* Excessively rich air-fuel mixtures can cause the plug tip temperatures to decrease and carbon deposits to accumulate, possibly causing fouling and misfires.

* Excessively lean air-fuel mixtures can cause the cylinder and plug temperatures to increase, possibly resulting in knock and/or pre-ignition. This may cause damage to the spark plug and/or seriously damage the engine.

* If an air-fuel ratio meter or gas analyzer is not available, it will be necessary to visually inspect the spark plugs frequently during the tuning process to determine the proper air-fuel mixture.

 

 

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/image/charttempfiringend.gif