VFR 800

[vfr-shah]

Originally posted by vfrT@Dec 7 2005, 11:39 PM

I understand some BMW R series bikes dont take too well to synths.

Previously all BMW bikes are air/oil cool bikes that's why syn EO is not recommended on this bikes. They require semi-syn or base oil. Its the same with XR4 which i previously rode or any air/oil cool bikes.

[vfrT]

Originally posted by vfr-shah@Dec 8 2005, 10:57 AM

Previously all BMW bikes are air/oil cool bikes that's why syn EO is not recommended on this bikes. They require semi-syn or base oil. Its the same with XR4 which i previously rode or any air/oil cool bikes.

My expereince is diff than yours as I did not experience any problems with any of my air cooled bikes using M1 oil. Those bikes are Kawa KZ650, ZR750R, Yamaha X11, Suz GS1000E. From what I read, the problem is associated with using synths on some bikes are mostly due to clutch slip and not becos its air or oil cooled. Perhaps you could enlighten us on your experience in this respect?

[HamsterZ]

Originally posted by vfrT@Dec 7 2005, 11:39 PM

I have been using the same M1 on my bikes and cars for the last 2 decades. No problem. All japanese vehicles tho. You need to check if it works for you esp for european brand bikes, I understand some BMW R series bikes dont take too well to synths.

 

I used to change every 4months and 6000km but got lazy and nowI change at 10,000km or 6 months. I feel confident that it can run higher mileage, but running in Sg is considered harsh condition due to the short distance and frequent stop and start. This prevent the engine/oil from purging the waste bye products.

Got a ques... My theory, a stop start condition compared with non stop ride conditions, both clocking lets say 5000km... the non stop conditions should give the better "conditioned" oil... meanin less wear.

 

But I have experienced personally on 2 oils, the after the non stop ride gives a shittier oil feel especially on gear changing.... anyone have any similar cases?

[vfrT]

Originally posted by HamsterZ@Dec 8 2005, 01:08 PM

Got a ques... My theory, a stop start condition compared with non stop ride conditions, both clocking lets say 5000km... the non stop conditions should give the better "conditioned" oil... meanin less wear.

 

But I have experienced personally on 2 oils, the after the non stop ride gives a shittier oil feel especially on gear changing.... anyone have any similar cases?

The impact on eo on both stop & start condition and constant speed over your hypothetical distance of 5000km would be different. In the earlier case, water condensation a bye-product of combustion will not be able to be burned off and this can contribute to increased level of acidity in the oil which in turn causes corrosion in your engine parts. Hence the need for shorter change interval.

 

In the latter case, the rate of loss of viscosity of oil is highest in the initial few hundred km. The viscosity retention property of the oil plays a great role in this regard. Hence you will feel more "shite" after a few hundred kms of a new oil change. It is the same for any oil, just that some retain viscosity better than others. M1 has been tested to have one of the highest viscosity retention .

 

However, it does not necessarily means the oil is no longer usable. Just that it has thinned out and performs like a lighter weight oil.

 

One rule of thumb (in the absence of a proper oil analysis) I use and which Kaufman the oil guru ffers is to take a sample of oil between your thumb and forefinger and rub them together. If it feels gritty and smell burnt, then its best to change it.

[vfrT]

Originally posted by HamsterZ@Dec 8 2005, 01:08 PM

Got a ques... My theory, a stop start condition compared with non stop ride conditions, both clocking lets say 5000km... the non stop conditions should give the better "conditioned" oil... meanin less wear.

 

But I have experienced personally on 2 oils, the after the non stop ride gives a shittier oil feel especially on gear changing.... anyone have any similar cases?

The impact on eo on both stop & start condition and constant speed over your hypothetical distance of 5000km would be different. In the earlier case, water condensation a bye-product of combustion will not be able to be burned off and this can contribute to increased level of acidity in the oil which in turn causes corrosion in your engine parts. Hence the need for shorter change interval.

 

In the latter case, the rate of loss of viscosity of oil is highest in the initial few hundred km. The viscosity retention property of the oil plays a great role in this regard. Hence you will feel more "shite" after a few hundred kms of a new oil change. It is the same for any oil, just that some retain viscosity better than others. M1 has been tested to have one of the highest viscosity retention .

 

However, it does not necessarily means the oil is no longer usable. Just that it has thinned out and performs like a lighter weight oil.

 

One rule of thumb (in the absence of a proper oil analysis) I use and which Kaufman the oil guru offers is to take a sample of oil between your thumb and forefinger and rub them together. If it feels gritty and smell burnt, then its best to change it.

[HamsterZ]

Originally posted by vfrT@Dec 8 2005, 08:59 PM

The impact on eo on both stop & start condition and constant speed over your hypothetical distance of 5000km would be different. In the earlier case, water condensation a bye-product of combustion will not be able to be burned off and this can contribute to increased level of acidity in the oil which in turn causes corrosion in your engine parts. Hence the need for shorter change interval.

 

In the latter case, the rate of loss of viscosity of oil is highest in the initial few hundred km. The viscosity retention property of the oil plays a great role in this regard. Hence you will feel more "shite" after a few hundred kms of a new oil change. It is the same for any oil, just that some retain viscosity better than others. M1 has been tested to have one of the highest viscosity retention .

 

However, it does not necessarily means the oil is no longer usable. Just that it has thinned out and performs like a lighter weight oil.

 

One rule of thumb (in the absence of a proper oil analysis) I use and which Kaufman the oil guru ffers is to take a sample of oil between your thumb and forefinger and rub them together. If it feels gritty and smell burnt, then its best to change it.

Thanks vfrT for the analysis... i only knew abt the start stop case, but not about the oil retention part. But I think you got 1 part interpreted wrongly. The "shiitier" feel is when comparing

 

1. start-stop case n clocked maybe 2000km

to

2. continuous case n clocked 2000km

I understand that oil feels slightly "thinner" after the first few hundreds...

 

So does the oil rentention explaination still valid?

 

 

N yup.. i always, rub, smell, inspect each oil when draining. way to gain some actual product samples after usage!

[vfrT]

Originally posted by HamsterZ@Dec 9 2005, 01:22 AM

Thanks vfrT for the analysis... i only knew abt the start stop case, but not about the oil retention part. But I think you got 1 part interpreted wrongly. The "shiitier" feel is when comparing

 

1. start-stop case n clocked maybe 2000km

to

2. continuous case n clocked 2000km

I understand that oil feels slightly "thinner" after the first few hundreds...

 

So does the oil rentention explaination still valid?

 

 

N yup.. i always, rub, smell, inspect each oil when draining. way to gain some actual product samples after usage!

Both scenario are not mutually exclusive. Viscosity retention will be affected by mileage regardless of type of usage. So to answer your question, yes viscosity retention will be impacted - its just that you feel it sooner in high speed run cos the oil is subjected to higher stress (that's another matter of oil wear) and you reach that lower viscosity mark sooner. Its just that with more prevalent start-stop pattern (city riding), you get the extra bonus of increased acidity risks.

So, in theory, all else being equal, if 2 same bikes are used, one in the city and one in the suburbs, read M'sia, the the city bike would be encoraged to have more frequent oil change to purge the acidity built up. Of course there are other factors invovled such as quality of oil filter & oil etc but we are narrowing this down to this to issues only.

[vfr-shah]

Originally posted by vfrT@Dec 8 2005, 12:44 PM

My expereince is diff than yours as I did not experience any problems with any of my air cooled bikes using M1 oil. Those bikes are Kawa KZ650, ZR750R, Yamaha X11, Suz GS1000E. From what I read, the problem is associated with using synths on some bikes are mostly due to clutch slip and not becos its air or oil cooled. Perhaps you could enlighten us on your experience in this respect?

From what I know, the air/oil cool bikes uses the oil to transfer the heat produce out to the fins on the engine body. Thicker oil does this better, so i was told. Anyway when I was using the synth oil on my XR4, the EO level drop and needs topping up. This was due to the thin EO getting burn in the combustion chamber. After changing the my EO from synth oil to semi, the problem was resolved. I thought it was cos my bike was old. But most of my XR4 gang at that time did encounter the same thing. And one of them also had a BMW GS and told me that its use cheap base oil. As for the clutch slip, I never experience it using synth or semi on my XR4.

 

vfrT & Hamz, where do you guys get the M1 from? And how much? I thinking of using it for my bike.

[vfrT]

Originally posted by vfr-shah@Dec 9 2005, 09:26 AM

From what I know, the air/oil cool bikes uses the oil to transfer the heat produce out to the fins on the engine body. Thicker oil does this better, so i was told. Anyway when I was using the synth oil on my XR4, the EO level drop and needs topping up. This was due to the thin EO getting burn in the combustion chamber. After changing the my EO from synth oil to semi, the problem was resolved. I thought it was cos my bike was old. But most of my XR4 gang at that time did encounter the same thing. And one of them also had a BMW GS and told me that its use cheap base oil. As for the clutch slip, I never experience it using synth or semi on my XR4.

 

vfrT & Hamz, where do you guys get the M1 from? And how much? I thinking of using it for my bike.

As far as I know, there are only air cooled and water cooled bikes. This are named by how the heat from the engine are dissipated. In air cooled engines numerous fins are cast into the engine and casing to dissipate the heat. For more consistent heat management over a wider operating condition and higher output engines, water jackets are wrapped around the main heat-produing engine components such as the upper cylinder are used.

 

The so called "Oil cooled" bikes are actually bikes that are air cooled but has additional oil-radiators that cools the oil rather than water-coolant radiators as in the water cooled bikes.

 

As for M1 source I have already posted mine on this thread on 7 Dec http://www.singaporebikes.com/forum/index....c=35957&st=1740

 

cheers

[HamsterZ]

Originally posted by vfrT@Dec 9 2005, 08:48 AM

Both scenario are not mutually exclusive. Viscosity retention will be affected by mileage regardless of type of usage. So to answer your question, yes viscosity retention will be impacted - its just that you feel it sooner in high speed run cos the oil is subjected to higher stress (that's another matter of oil wear) and you reach that lower viscosity mark sooner. Its just that with more prevalent start-stop pattern (city riding), you get the extra bonus of increased acidity risks.

So, in theory, all else being equal, if 2 same bikes are used, one in the city and one in the suburbs, read M'sia, the the city bike would be encoraged to have more frequent oil change to purge the acidity built up. Of course there are other factors invovled such as quality of oil filter & oil etc but we are narrowing this down to this to issues only.

So the bike that is used in the suburbs will feel shittier (assuming both type of riding clocked he same mileage.. say maybe 2000km) due to "high speed run cos the oil is subjected to higher stress"

 

In my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong), an oil subjected to less heat over time & mileage (which is the suburbs riding case) will breakdown/thin less compared to a city riding case. So why does the EO fel rougher/shitter in turn of gear change and engine smoothness feel on normal riding after both bike hit say 2000km(example mileage only nia)?

 

As for the acidity thingy... i got your point.. something new learnt.. thanks!

[HamsterZ]

Originally posted by vfr-shah@Dec 9 2005, 09:26 AM

From what I know, the air/oil cool bikes uses the oil to transfer the heat produce out to the fins on the engine body. Thicker oil does this better, so i was told. Anyway when I was using the synth oil on my XR4, the EO level drop and needs topping up. This was due to the thin EO getting burn in the combustion chamber. After changing the my EO from synth oil to semi, the problem was resolved. I thought it was cos my bike was old. But most of my XR4 gang at that time did encounter the same thing. And one of them also had a BMW GS and told me that its use cheap base oil. As for the clutch slip, I never experience it using synth or semi on my XR4.

 

vfrT & Hamz, where do you guys get the M1 from? And how much? I thinking of using it for my bike.

1 point to ask from your qoute.. if anyone can help.. thanks

 

"......bikes uses the oil to transfer the heat produce out to the fins on the engine body. Thicker oil does this better, so i was told"

 

 

yesh oil is the medium to remove heat via heat transfer. But thicker does this better... i am in doubt.

 

By paper (if we know the oil specs in depth), a thinner oil will transfer heat faster... how?... in short the velocity/rate of flow is slightly faster (assuming the specific heat cap is equal for the thick & thin oil that is used for comparison). Then again, the specific cap for diff oils r definitely dif. So my point is Maybe we should n't judge "thick oils remove heat better"

 

Its like 2 person who can only carry 10kg of load, have to run from GP esso to kulai and pass to to a fren. 1 rusn faster than the other effortlessly. SO definitely the guy who runs faster can make a few more trips rite? Then again, the amount of load that he can carry is usually diff. So prob the efficiency in "passing load would prob have to consider ... total amount of load that a person can carry/unit time.

 

 

But I can't really say even with the above considered, which oil is better because, I myself cannot analyse wear tear rate with proper any measurements/method/units/benchmark. Tiak engine and must wait for years to see the diff? heheeh.. die man

[vfrT]

Originally posted by HamsterZ@Dec 9 2005, 12:45 PM

So the bike that is used in the suburbs will feel shittier (assuming both type of riding clocked he same mileage.. say maybe 2000km) due to "high speed run cos the oil is subjected to higher stress"

 

In my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong), an oil subjected to less heat over time & mileage (which is the suburbs riding case) will breakdown/thin less compared to a city riding case. So why does the EO fel rougher/shitter in turn of gear change and engine smoothness feel on normal riding after both bike hit say 2000km(example mileage only nia)?

 

As for the acidity thingy... i got your point.. something new learnt.. thanks!

Quote[so the bike that is used in the suburbs will feel shittier (assuming both type of riding clocked he same mileage.. say maybe 2000km) due to "high speed run cos the oil is subjected to higher stress"

 

In my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong), an oil subjected to less heat over time & mileage (which is the suburbs riding case) will breakdown/thin less compared to a city riding case. ]

 

I was taking only two variables, viscosity retention (mileage) and type of riding (acid formation) that will affect the eo. There are too many other variables that can affect the eo that were not discuss and I really out the league if we go any further - having no primary scientific basis for my stand - ie I speak from the seat of my pants and what I read. You are a mechanical engineer -.. respect.. - so I am sure you know way more than I do in this realm.

 

Qyote [so why does the EO fel rougher/shitter in turn of gear change and engine smoothness feel on normal riding after both bike hit say 2000km(example mileage only nia)? ]

 

We all know how our babes ride; now and then they feel temperamental and it shows in the amount of shite we get. So go out and fawn her and she will smooth out.

[vfr-shah]

Originally posted by HamsterZ@Dec 9 2005, 12:56 PM

1 point to ask from your qoute.. if anyone can help.. thanks

 

"......bikes uses the oil to transfer the heat produce out to the fins on the engine body. Thicker oil does this better, so i was told"

 

 

yesh oil is the medium to remove heat via heat transfer. But thicker does this better... i am in doubt.

Sorry bro, I thick i made a mistake. Yes synth oil cools better, what I meant was due to the synth oil being thinner, they get into the combustion chamber and get burn. So what i meant was the semi-synth oil does the job better than base oil. And they do not get burn. This was my experience with XR4.

[HamsterZ]

Originally posted by vfrT@Dec 9 2005, 01:56 PM

Quote[so the bike that is used in the suburbs will feel shittier (assuming both type of riding clocked he same mileage.. say maybe 2000km) due to "high speed run cos the oil is subjected to higher stress"

 

In my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong), an oil subjected to less heat over time & mileage (which is the suburbs riding case) will breakdown/thin less compared to a city riding case. ]

 

I was taking only two variables, viscosity retention (mileage) and type of riding (acid formation) that will affect the eo. There are too many other variables that can affect the eo that were not discuss and I really out the league if we go any further - having no primary scientific basis for my stand - ie I speak from the seat of my pants and what I read. You are a mechanical engineer -.. respect.. - so I am sure you know way more than I do in this realm.

 

Qyote [so why does the EO fel rougher/shitter in turn of gear change and engine smoothness feel on normal riding after both bike hit say 2000km(example mileage only nia)? ]

 

We all know how our babes ride; now and then they feel temperamental and it shows in the amount of shite we get. So go out and fawn her and she will smooth out.

hhmm thanks for the info... mech engineer yah.. but we weren't thought much about bikes stuff.. school learnt is all so.. dead...

 

i like ur last sentence... So go out and fawn her and she will smooth out.

took her to seethailand n msia in the TBR ride.. she came back.. really smooth n shiok.. :lovestruck: .. except for the oil feeling. never mind i just gave her some new potion last night... she feels good now

 

PS:guys check this out "http://www.boonsiewhonda.com.sg/" when the pic rotates to VFR.. it says "VARIOUS DESTINATIONS".... thats what our babes r made for... take her OUT!!

[vfr-shah]

Originally posted by vfrT@Dec 9 2005, 12:16 PM

As for M1 source I have already posted mine on this thread on 7 Dec http://www.singaporebikes.com/forum/index....c=35957&st=1740

 

cheers

Sorry but i think i miss that post...

[none]

Originally posted by HamsterZ@Dec 9 2005, 05:36 PM

PS:guys check this out "http://www.boonsiewhonda.com.sg/" when the pic rotates to VFR.. it says "VARIOUS DESTINATIONS".... thats what our babes r made for... take her OUT!!

Looks like VFR is the favourite bike icon on BS website!

[HamsterZ]

Originally posted by none@Dec 9 2005, 07:39 PM

Looks like VFR is the favourite bike icon on BS website!

yeah.. nice scenery.. iwsh i bring my up to australia or europe man

[jovan]

which wan u all talking abt?

r u guys talking abt tis EO?

[jovan]

or tis

[Guest Delusi0n]

any one had any idea where cani remove the O2 sensor and how much is the cost like...

[HamsterZ]

Originally posted by Delusi0n@Dec 10 2005, 02:17 PM

any one had any idea where cani remove the O2 sensor and how much is the cost like...

remove the left cowling, you will see 2 connectors that leads to the O2 sensors. Just unplug them off and unscrew the 2 sensors itself. This is enable the Fi light. You can buy the O2 dummy plugs and replace the 2 sensors youu removed to kill of the Fi light. Cost per piece, prob about $70 per piece i think.

[Guest Delusi0n]

Originally posted by HamsterZ@Dec 10 2005, 02:26 PM

remove the left cowling, you will see 2 connectors that leads to the O2 sensors. Just unplug them off and unscrew the 2 sensors itself. This is enable the Fi light. You can buy the O2 dummy plugs and replace the 2 sensors youu removed to kill of the Fi light. Cost per piece, prob about $70 per piece i think.

but having the FI light on doesnt matter, right.. than can save up the $150 bucks

[HamsterZ]

Originally posted by Delusi0n@Dec 10 2005, 02:34 PM

but having the FI light on doesnt matter, right.. than can save up the $150 bucks

nope... but maybe the bulb will blower earlier? If you are not getting the the replacement, then better not unplug the sensors out. Just D/C the connectors, & seal them up properly

[nkan0]

Do u guys organize any VFRs meetups & gatherings?

 

hmmm.... u guys can exchange so many pointers online, but how abt a face-to-face meetup where we can see each other's bikes??

:lovestruck: :lovestruck:

[HamsterZ]

Originally posted by n@kan0@Dec 12 2005, 03:55 PM

Do u guys organize any VFRs meetups & gatherings?

 

hmmm.... u guys can exchange so many pointers online, but how abt a face-to-face meetup where we can see each other's bikes??

:lovestruck: :lovestruck:

had a meet up long long ago... at kallang KFC and kulai tim sum... prob will ahve another one... there is a viffer going to organise a VFR mersing trip soon.. akan datang..

 

ok going back reservist now.. tata:sweat: