Knee Dragging - The Pros VS The Pretenders

[Wayang]

this just came to my mind while looking at some pics taken at the johor circuit, so motogp n professional racers use knee dragging to gauge lean angle but it seems to me when alot of amateur track riders try to emulate their heroic racers, what they do is they extend their knee as far out as they can just to touch down their knee sliders wif the tarmac.

 

wat do u guys think ?

[redbeacon]

Coincidentally, me and my bro were just discussing this over the weekend, but the theme of the discussion was more like better cornering confidence vs style.

I digress with the abovementioned.

 

No offence, but I don't see anything wrong with sticking out one's knee. It does make riders feel better of themselves, and sometimes come out as a good photo opportunity too.

 

Better yet, at least these group of people achieved similarly to what what you've said about MotoGP, GP, or other Misc-Cornersiok-Prix riders - lean angle. They now know how much motorcycle and body lean gets their knee to the ground. But what I feel is that this is slightly at the expense of the bike's stability and as a track newbie I can attest to that too.

 

So yah, the theme of trackday: Don't be too particular about stuff. Closest definition that I can think of is "kiasu"

 

Your thoughts? Take note I charge by the second for consultation, additional charges for referral to a real racer for comment not included

Edited April 19, 2011 by redbeacon

[xiaoviper]

From what I read, though I don't have experience at all, bringing the knee down properly actually shifts your body weight over to helps the bike turn sharper without you leaning it over too much such that you scrape the pegs. In this case, a more upright bike and stability is achieved through out the radius. I've never tried it, but sounds logical. Pls correct if I'm wrong.

 

Sticking knee out imo, brings out somewhat the confidence and the look of prowness. lol

[zzback]

hey buddy

frm what i know there's is no " THE PROS & THE PRETENDERS" theres only beginners and experienced riders!

no one would go to track and 'PRETEND' to go fast, given enuf bike & track time with proper guidance one would also ride like a PRO!

everyone has to start frm somewhere, so if you see someone riding with his/her body fully leaned out till backside almost touching the ground, don't say he/she is pretenting, say he/she is still learning!!

cheers buddy.......

[vyruz]

As someone who will soon hit the track, here are my thoughts:

 

1. Knee dragging looks great but not if the bike is at like 20 degrees lean and the rider is hanging off both a*scheeks and stretching to reach the ground. If the bike is leant over enough and the rider is hanging off by one a*scheek, and the knee puck slides on the ground, all is good.

 

2. I will honestly try to slide my knee pucks at least a couple of times. I will not however try to drag knee at every possible corner. I suspect needless dragging will tire me out (since my outside thigh will be doing a lot of work when my inside leg could actually help by clamping against the tank) and possibly distract me from just focusing on getting around the corner.

 

3. Knee dragging is not only for gauging your lean angle. There are other possible benefits: (i) if you're about to lowside, your knee on the ground could save it, and (ii) there is a sense of security being close and in contact with the ground since there is a reduced height from which you could fall.

 

4. I want to have a picture(s) of me leant over with my knee dragging. I know there is a huge poser factor there, but honestly I don't care. I love watching races and would love to pretend to do what they do.

 

5. Pros will generally argue that knee dragging should be a by-product of improving your cornering technique (faster = more lean angle = having to hang off to avoid running out of lean angle), and not a result in itself. I agree with this but that won't stop me trying a couple of times

[xiaoviper]

frm what i know there's is no " THE PROS & THE PRETENDERS" theres only beginners and experienced riders!

 

I like this! Else, everyone who's learning or trying are posers. Which kinda says that you are either in it and pro else you're a poser.

[mechwira]

my knees have never touched down on track coz i've never cornered fast enough to warrant it.

 

imho though, i think TS is differentiating two types of track-riders: those whose knees touch down as a by-product of cornering, and those who take a corner with knee-down as the goal itself.

 

personally i think the first type is the better rider and the 'correct' thing. but heck nothing wrong with the second group, unless you're hanging off like a monkey with both butt cheeks off and bike only 45 degrees, just for the knee to touch, which i've seen pics of.

[bernardk]

Pros using Slick tires heated with specific temp. amateur using street tires. How to compare lean angle? Of cos use knee slider to protect la Hahahah... just my thot. no offence. but tires already different.

[Wayang]

Coincidentally, me and my bro were just discussing this over the weekend, but the theme of the discussion was more like better cornering confidence vs style.

I digress with the abovementioned.

 

No offence, but I don't see anything wrong with sticking out one's knee. It does make riders feel better of themselves, and sometimes come out as a good photo opportunity too.

 

Better yet, at least these group of people achieved similarly to what what you've said about MotoGP, GP, or other Misc-Cornersiok-Prix riders - lean angle. They now know how much motorcycle and body lean gets their knee to the ground. But what I feel is that this is slightly at the expense of the bike's stability and as a track newbie I can attest to that too.

 

So yah, the theme of trackday: Don't be too particular about stuff. Closest definition that I can think of is "kiasu"

 

Your thoughts? Take note I charge by the second for consultation, additional charges for referral to a real racer for comment not included

 

the issue is while these riders can drag their knee BUT r they doing it correctly ? my qns is on proper technique. in many pictures i see riders in awkward cornering poses, the bottom half of the rider is shifted out but the top half is stil glued to the centre of the bike. they are only achieving the knee drag portion of cornering and leaving out the hanging off portion.

[Wayang]

hey buddy

frm what i know there's is no " THE PROS & THE PRETENDERS" theres only beginners and experienced riders!

no one would go to track and 'PRETEND' to go fast, given enuf bike & track time with proper guidance one would also ride like a PRO!

everyone has to start frm somewhere, so if you see someone riding with his/her body fully leaned out till backside almost touching the ground, don't say he/she is pretenting, say he/she is still learning!!

cheers buddy.......

 

u can look upon the terms i used as metaphors, wat i implied was riders are trying to copy wat they see on tv but do they noe how to do it correctly anot ?

[Wayang]

Pros using Slick tires heated with specific temp. amateur using street tires. How to compare lean angle? Of cos use knee slider to protect la Hahahah... just my thot. no offence. but tires already different.

 

modern sportbikes shod wif street legal dot race tires r capable of pretty amazing lean angles

[vyruz]

the issue is while these riders can drag their knee BUT r they doing it correctly ? my qns is on proper technique. in many pictures i see riders in awkward cornering poses, the bottom half of the rider is shifted out but the top half is stil glued to the centre of the bike. they are only achieving the knee drag portion of cornering and leaving out the hanging off portion.

 

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to tell Mick Doohan and Troy Bayliss that they were or are doing it 'wrong':

 

http://leduc998.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/curvare-doohan.jpg

 

http://bmwmcmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Troy-Brno.jpg

 

I would say that there are a number of people who consciously adopt the 'wrong' style and make it work really well for themselves, in which case it is 'correct' for them. The key thing here though is that the exception only applies to those who make it work. If you're a newbie and starting to learn how to track, I think there is a lot of fairness in others saying you should adopt the conventional body position.

 

If the question is whether you should get upset watching newbies corner all crossed-up, then for me, the answer is similar to whether you would get upset if people did anything else the 'wrong' way e.g. speaking bad English, exercising without proper form etc. If you don't get upset over these things, why get upset over cornering form?

[dolf]

...from a streetbike point of view on the track, make sure sliders come in contact with the tarmac before the pegs do...best reason for wanting to look like Rossi on the track:)

[personified]

hmmmm...theres actually 5 "correct" ways of body position while nego a bend... when i have the time,i'll post it up..hahaha... 5 generations of correct body positioning... from Agostini to Rossi...

actually theres no one actual correct position...do what u feel is comfortable and if it suits u,its correct...

 

for me...hmmm...im a poser!!! hahaha... my bum cheeks are practically off the seat as much as possible n im gonna try an elbow down (in Sepang T5,best place to try it out,hope theres a photographer when im trying it hahahaha)...i love posing for the photographer..:P NOT!

 

no lah! seriously..really theres no 1 exact correct position... if u wanna talk abt MotoGP..observe the American and the European riders...totally different style of position...1 example is look at how they position their elbows, Americans elbows extend outwards while the European elbows are tucked in..so which is right????

if u wanna comment on bad body position..observe Kevin Schwantz... totally different from anyone else...but he won the GP500 championship and the whole world went shhhhhhhh....

Schwantz still teaches (in his race school) n believe strongly in applying weight to the inner pegs where Keith Code (CSS) teaches otherwise.... so what do i do? absorb whatever i read n do a mix n match till i get one in which im comfortable n gives me reasonable swiftness...

 

maybe some riders extend their knees out further because they use it as a gauge not to lean that far..just maybe? *shrug*

[Doctor DOL 46]

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to tell Mick Doohan and Troy Bayliss that they were or are doing it 'wrong':

 

http://leduc998.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/curvare-doohan.jpg

 

http://bmwmcmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Troy-Brno.jpg

 

 

Bro,

 

The 2nd picture is not Troy Bayliss lei..

 

Cheers

[Doctor DOL 46]

for me...hmmm...im a poser!!! hahaha... my bum cheeks are practically off the seat as much as possible n im gonna try an elbow down (in Sepang T5,best place to try it out,hope theres a photographer when im trying it hahahaha)...i love posing for the photographer..:P NOT!

 

Posing for photographer to scrap elbow at Sepang T5?? Scary.. Corner speed too fast to do that..

 

Shud try T1 instead.. Slower corner speed..

[Wayang]

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to tell Mick Doohan and Troy Bayliss that they were or are doing it 'wrong':

 

http://leduc998.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/curvare-doohan.jpg

 

http://bmwmcmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Troy-Brno.jpg

 

I would say that there are a number of people who consciously adopt the 'wrong' style and make it work really well for themselves, in which case it is 'correct' for them. The key thing here though is that the exception only applies to those who make it work. If you're a newbie and starting to learn how to track, I think there is a lot of fairness in others saying you should adopt the conventional body position.

 

If the question is whether you should get upset watching newbies corner all crossed-up, then for me, the answer is similar to whether you would get upset if people did anything else the 'wrong' way e.g. speaking bad English, exercising without proper form etc. If you don't get upset over these things, why get upset over cornering form?

 

no doubting mick doohan as a champion but i believe racing as evolved from the era of the 500s and wldnt u agree doohan's posture looks very strange n contorted ? i agree thr's more then one way to ride a bike and a rider shld adopt watever works for them.

[Wayang]

hmmmm...theres actually 5 "correct" ways of body position while nego a bend... when i have the time,i'll post it up..hahaha... 5 generations of correct body positioning... from Agostini to Rossi...

 

interesting.. 5 eh.. i think its more of the evolution of body positioning rather then 5 diff correct ones

[vyruz]

Bro,

 

The 2nd picture is not Troy Bayliss lei..

 

Cheers

 

Good spotting mate. I meant to say Troy Corser.

[vyruz]

wldnt u agree doohan's posture looks very strange n contorted ?

 

Agreed bro. I'm a fan of the more conventional style:

 

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/photogallerys/Aprilia-RS125-1.jpg

 

http://admin.motorcyclenews.com/upload/192033/images/lorenzo.jpg

 

I admit the more I read about leaning, the more I change my perception about how often is too often to drag knee. In both photos above (I carefully chose them because they're both Spain's No 1 themed bikes!), the rider is not dragging knee but the knee is out. Some of you may say 'Yes, but they're exiting/entering the corner so the knee has already/has not yet touched down', but you cannot deny that top class riders do put their knee out in some corners whether or not they eventually drag them. I was watching the Assen round of WSBK last night and noticed that the riders had their knee out at the S-bend just before the start-finish straight and the knee never got close to the ground. Perhaps newbies like me will do some good by just letting the knee extend out naturally (rather than forcing it wide open), and as we get faster and faster and use more lean angle, eventually the knee will drag on its own.

[personified]

Posing for photographer to scrap elbow at Sepang T5?? Scary.. Corner speed too fast to do that..

 

Shud try T1 instead.. Slower corner speed..

 

my corner speed at T5 slow le,bro... so can try le ...

[personified]

Good spotting mate. I meant to say Troy Corser.

 

huh? Troy Bayliss???Troy Corser??all the while I thought that was Helen of Troy??!!???

 

and why all pixs of Aprilia Spain #1??? BIASED!!!!!! hahahahaha

[vyruz]

huh? Troy Bayliss???Troy Corser??all the while I thought that was Helen of Troy??!!???

 

and why all pixs of Aprilia Spain #1??? BIASED!!!!!! hahahahaha

 

Confusing right? Maybe we just talk about the terrible body position of this Troy:

 

http://www.portwallpaper.com/imgwal/troy-duel.jpg

 

Aprilia Spain's No. 1 rocks buddy! Plus I don't need to make a race number for my bike - already has number '1' on it!

[Dark_Divine]

i read an article in one of motorcycles magazine, they shown top 20 cornering posture by motogp and WSBK rider. at the end of it stated that there are no correct or wrong technic in taking a bend....each rider has their own body positioning in taking a bend. as we can't carbon copy on how Tony Elias or Colin edwards doing in a bend. maybe we can try, but i think we don't feel comfortable or maybe feel awkward as we already comfy we our riding style.

[KeraKing]

from a noob (ME!);

1. when the knee on the ground i feel more stable and planted and much more confidence.

if its they not on the ground i will feel less confident and a bit scared. (cause i'm juz a noob~!)

2. shifting rider weight means bike no need to lean too much.

 

3. there are pics of racers with knees sticking out but small angle of lean, but still look fkin nice.. its look of determintation like the bike so fast that they need to throw their body like dat just to turn it.