New EU motorcycle license: A return of the 400cc class?

[Jehuty]

More cheap auto parallel twin 400cc.

 

Actually it has nothing to do with power, eons ago 400ccs were the supersports, 750s were the superbikes. Now 600cc is supersports, 1000cc is superbike, 250cc replaced the old 125 cc 2 strokes.

 

It has alot to do with what they race rather than what EU emissions and all that nonsense. So yeah, stop asking if they would bring back the old 400ccs inline 4 sportbikes or whether they will pass or fail, I'd rather they keep making jack of all trade bikes like the Super 4, can go distance, not so expensive, cheap maintenance etc

 

I just wish Honda will make a v4 superbike.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Jehuty

[mechwira]

2. The other way is to castrate the 400cc, and make it into a bland commuter with nice clothes. A sheep in wolf's clothing, in a sense.

And the fact is that it sells.

 

Well, if we have a updated ZX4R and a ZX-4F (hypothetical castrated commuter version), then everyone goes home happy.

 

actually, i'm not convinced that an updated, cleaner inline-4 400cc that meets EU emissions will necessarily be a 'castrated' version of the old nineties legends. i say that because the 1000cc flagship engines have been around since the pre-EU dirty emissions versions, and today's 1000cc are more powerful yet pass EU. but you might be right, and i guess only the manufacturers themselves know if they can make such a theoretical engine without castrating it.

 

but yeah, i'll bet a ZX-4R and ZX-4F would sell well alongside each other. After all, the CBR250 will still sell well beside the ninja300. the cbr250 buyers definitely are the ones who are after 'pure commuter', so the segment of the market confirm is there. but i'm guessing the ninja300 buyers actually want hardcore, and buy the ninja300 only because there is nothing else in the market more hardcore. and i guess if thats reason enough for it to sell well, the manufacturers wont care about anything else. but all it takes is one manufacturer to create and sell a true hardcore 400... the CBR250 buyers wont care, but the ninja300 i'm sure will be abandoned.

 

The 250s and 300s series of bikes. It makes no sense to local riders.

 

on the contrary, this capacity (250-400) makes perfect sense to me. i love my 600, and brought it to PG several times (stopped since becoming a father though); but i will admit its too much for local roads, too much for tight PG and far more capable than my skills. i would spend on a hardcore sports 400, and i'd be dam happy.

Edited December 26, 2012 by mechwira

[mechwira]

It has alot to do with what they race rather than what EU emissions and all that nonsense. So yeah, stop asking if they would bring back the old 400ccs inline 4 sportbikes or whether they will pass or fail, I'd rather they keep making jack of all trade bikes like the Super 4, can go distance, not so expensive, cheap maintenance etc

 

I just wish Honda will make a v4 superbike.

 

no problems with what you personally want in a bike bro. i would downgrade to a modern CBR400RR in a heartbeat, but i wouldn do it for the Super4. but if the super4 and similar reliable commuters are your thing, then its your thing.

 

but the fact is, we all have different tastes, and sportsbike fans dont have what we want in the '2A' category.

 

and doesn honda already produce a V4 engine in the VFR800? personally i'd like a japanese v-twin; but dont tell me TL1000 or VTR, coz those are old.

[jyew777]

I posted a related argument in another thread about our outdated evaluation process . If the intent is to test the riders skills on bikes of increasing power and weight then it shows the relevant authorities know nothing about bikes and probably ride the train to work every day: first, the skills required to ride a 400 and the 600 bike they use in the driving schools is not very different. there is a much bigger difference between a 600 and a GoldWing or a 1200 GS. does it mean we need another license for above 1000cc. The evaluation process also needs a major review: why test you on traffic rules again when u go for a class 2 test. You have already done that with the 2b and 2a test. At that stage in your riding career, they should just teach you some additional skills to master the heavier mass of the bike. Once the trainer is satisfied this has been achieved, give the license. A 2-tier license like some here have proposed would make a lot more sense than what we currently have. But this is the authorities we are talking about so I don't have much hope of seeing any changes anytime soon.

[jyew777]

bike manufacturers can built any engine configurations but too costly n unable to sell.

sillypore gahmen realized they make mistakes......in education system.

 

Why the insults and name calling? Is it too much to ask to show some decency and respect to the OP?

It's a bike forum . Go to asiaone forums for the usual complaints about foreigners and government.

Where are the forum moderators?

[mechwira]

I posted a related argument in another thread about our outdated evaluation process .

 

i did one better. several years ago i started such a thread, and then wrote in with all the arguments. a nice polite and positive-sounding reply came back, and you can read it. should still be somewhere in the 'rally point' segment. but its all just NATO.

 

Why the insults and name calling? Is it too much to ask to show some decency and respect to the OP?

 

just forget about it bro. internet full of people who use insults to try to show they're somehow cleverer, and by extension their opinions more valid. its just funny he has to lecture me about how the sun will naturally convert carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide to sound cleverer than me, when its got nothing to do with the topic at all. best response is just ignore; any other response will just degenerate into flaming, which wont help this thread. if he wants to show he's cleverer than me, or get the last insulting word on me, just let him.

[Constructicon]

actually, i'm not convinced that an updated, cleaner inline-4 400cc that meets EU emissions will necessarily be a 'castrated' version of the old nineties legends. i say that because the 1000cc flagship engines have been around since the pre-EU dirty emissions versions, and today's 1000cc are more powerful yet pass EU. but you might be right, and i guess only the manufacturers themselves know if they can make such a theoretical engine without castrating it.

 

but yeah, i'll bet a ZX-4R and ZX-4F would sell well alongside each other. After all, the CBR250 will still sell well beside the ninja300. the cbr250 buyers definitely are the ones who are after 'pure commuter', so the segment of the market confirm is there. but i'm guessing the ninja300 buyers actually want hardcore, and buy the ninja300 only because there is nothing else in the market more hardcore. and i guess if thats reason enough for it to sell well, the manufacturers wont care about anything else. but all it takes is one manufacturer to create and sell a true hardcore 400... the CBR250 buyers wont care, but the ninja300 i'm sure will be abandoned.

 

 

 

on the contrary, this capacity (250-400) makes perfect sense to me. i love my 600, and brought it to PG several times (stopped since becoming a father though); but i will admit its too much for local roads, too much for tight PG and far more capable than my skills. i would spend on a hardcore sports 400, and i'd be dam happy.

 

Maybe I am digressing abit here, but it's a open topic anyway.

 

Have you seen the latest series of CB500 motorcycles released by Honda this month?

3 different models, but basically the same motorcycle underneath. Catered to all corners of the market.

Best part? They cost USD $5500 to $5999, that's less than 8K SGD for a brand new 500cc motorcycle.

 

Perhaps the market has changed, or maybe it's pushed to changed bny manufacturers.

But given the very enticing price and usual Honda quality, most people will be tempted to buy rather than a 400cc screamer.

[mechwira]

Maybe I am digressing abit here, but it's a open topic anyway.

 

Have you seen the latest series of CB500 motorcycles released by Honda this month?

3 different models, but basically the same motorcycle underneath. Catered to all corners of the market.

Best part? They cost USD $5500 to $5999, that's less than 8K SGD for a brand new 500cc motorcycle.

 

Perhaps the market has changed, or maybe it's pushed to changed bny manufacturers.

But given the very enticing price and usual Honda quality, most people will be tempted to buy rather than a 400cc screamer.

 

no problems about digressing, if its about biking then just chit-chat lor. its a biking forum.

 

like i said before, i acknowledge that the 'commuter' market has always been, and will always be, bigger than the 'hardcore' market. and thus the 'commuter' bikes of the manufacturers have always been, and will always be, the backbone profit-making machines. The R1 is Yamaha's flagship, but worldwide their FZ8 outsells the R1.

 

but i'm hoping that when the new EU licence kicks in, people will be forced to ride a sub 47bhp (like how we are forced to ride 2A category), a market for hardcore sub 47bhp will open up and they will produce such a bike in future.

 

if a hypothetical ZX-4R were sold in singapore, would it sell well? confirm. would it outsell the super4? i highly doubt it. but it would sell well enough that distributors would import it in. by contrast, remember the CBF250 that was sold here a few years ago? that's a honda commuter that has either been discontinued, or sold so poorly in singapore that the distributors no longer brought it in. at best, it goes to show that neither of us can truly be sure of real market sentiment.

[jyew777]

i did one better. several years ago i started such a thread, and then wrote in with all the arguments. a nice polite and positive-sounding reply came back, and you can read it. should still be somewhere in the 'rally point' segment. but its all just NATO.

 

 

You actually sent a letter to LTA? Do you mind sharing their response? I'm quite curious. You guys think we are the only country in the world with a 3-tier system? I have asked many people from around the world about their motorcycle tests and no one has more than 2.

[jyew777]

Maybe I am digressing abit here, but it's a open topic anyway.

 

Have you seen the latest series of CB500 motorcycles released by Honda this month?

3 different models, but basically the same motorcycle underneath. Catered to all corners of the market.

Best part? They cost USD $5500 to $5999, that's less than 8K SGD for a brand new 500cc motorcycle.

 

Perhaps the market has changed, or maybe it's pushed to changed bny manufacturers.

But given the very enticing price and usual Honda quality, most people will be tempted to buy rather than a 400cc screamer.

 

Agree, the new 500 bikes are very good value for money. There's even an adv-style one that would be perfect for new wanna-be adv riders like myself to get started until you have enough skills to master a bigger bike. But in the context of our discussion, its silly you would need a class 2 license for these when you can buy a class 2a KTM bike with more power. Just shows what the LTA knows about a motorbike market which they are trying to regulate.

[mechwira]

You actually sent a letter to LTA? Do you mind sharing their response? I'm quite curious. You guys think we are the only country in the world with a 3-tier system? I have asked many people from around the world about their motorcycle tests and no one has more than 2.

 

http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums/showthread.php/77136-Revision-of-Class-2-license-system

 

the reply can be found on page 3.

[MR BIKER]

A very very good piece of article on comparison of class 2a bikes. I had 2 cbr 400 rr in the 90s. Enjoyed them very much. with slightly more than 50hp and its sleek design, i wished i had kept them longer but because the agony of wanting and attaining big bikes was difficult, i had been always hoping the big 4 from japan would create something more exciting after 20 yrs. yahhh. cbr 500 sounded exciting when i read the newspaper the other day. but when i open the internet and read it was a parallel twin, i was shot dowm. HARD. i am really hoping a true cbr 500rr. (size like the cbr400rr and yet slightly more power. i think i can only dream.

[Constructicon]

no problems about digressing, if its about biking then just chit-chat lor. its a biking forum.

 

like i said before, i acknowledge that the 'commuter' market has always been, and will always be, bigger than the 'hardcore' market. and thus the 'commuter' bikes of the manufacturers have always been, and will always be, the backbone profit-making machines. The R1 is Yamaha's flagship, but worldwide their FZ8 outsells the R1.

 

but i'm hoping that when the new EU licence kicks in, people will be forced to ride a sub 47bhp (like how we are forced to ride 2A category), a market for hardcore sub 47bhp will open up and they will produce such a bike in future.

 

if a hypothetical ZX-4R were sold in singapore, would it sell well? confirm. would it outsell the super4? i highly doubt it. but it would sell well enough that distributors would import it in. by contrast, remember the CBF250 that was sold here a few years ago? that's a honda commuter that has either been discontinued, or sold so poorly in singapore that the distributors no longer brought it in. at best, it goes to show that neither of us can truly be sure of real market sentiment.

 

The CBX250 Twister, saw only a few in Singapore. Same as the older Suzuki GN250.

The buyers/ riders are those ah peh who got the license before the class 2B/2A/2 came out. Only to them, the 250 makes sense. More power than a 150, yet much cheaper than a 400.

Years ago, the ZX4R with the tubes feeding to the engine was such an iconic bike. Flipping the pages of bike magazines, the general sense is that bikes are getting more sensible in a ride-able and fuel efficient way, but much uglier and boring.

 

Wait and see.

 

Agree, the new 500 bikes are very good value for money. There's even an adv-style one that would be perfect for new wanna-be adv riders like myself to get started until you have enough skills to master a bigger bike. But in the context of our discussion, its silly you would need a class 2 license for these when you can buy a class 2a KTM bike with more power. Just shows what the LTA knows about a motorbike market which they are trying to regulate.

 

The 500s are very good value for $$$. At that price, it's also much cheaper than the competitors. But too bad for local riders, you need a Class 2 license which by then the whole world of motorcycles had opened up to you.

 

LTA is about governing a tiny island's small crop of motorcyclists. Do I believe they know about the trend of the motorcycling world? Dun tink so.

How many of those making rules actually rides a bike and understands motorcycles?

 

A very very good piece of article on comparison of class 2a bikes. I had 2 cbr 400 rr in the 90s. Enjoyed them very much. with slightly more than 50hp and its sleek design, i wished i had kept them longer but because the agony of wanting and attaining big bikes was difficult, i had been always hoping the big 4 from japan would create something more exciting after 20 yrs. yahhh. cbr 500 sounded exciting when i read the newspaper the other day. but when i open the internet and read it was a parallel twin, i was shot dowm. HARD. i am really hoping a true cbr 500rr. (size like the cbr400rr and yet slightly more power. i think i can only dream.

 

Parallel twin, it seems more suited to commuter bikes.

Last year or so, Honda did release a new version of the CBR600F. Still a inline 4 sportsbike, but supposedly made more for the road than track.

But did you see any on the road? Is it even popular?

 

Perhaps times has indeed changed.

[mechwira]

Last year or so, Honda did release a new version of the CBR600F. Still a inline 4 sportsbike, but supposedly made more for the road than track.

But did you see any on the road? Is it even popular?

 

Perhaps times has indeed changed.

 

there is a 'commuter' market', and there is a 'hardcore' market. the 'commuter' market has always been larger than the 'hardcore' market, but by the same token the 'hardcore' market has always existed, and will always exist, enough for profit.

 

the CBR600F fits neither. a hardcore buyer will immediately take the RR. and commuters will take hornet or CBF. the 'in-between' market is the one that is too small to cater for. when the RR was first released, it sold alongside the CBR600F4, and it rampantly outsold the F4. the fact that the the new CBR600F sells poorly is not because there is no more 'hardcore' market.

 

has the market changed? i don't think so. there will always be commuters and hardcore.

[jyew777]

http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums/showthread.php/77136-Revision-of-Class-2-license-system

 

the reply can be found on page 3.

 

Credit to you for taking this initiative on behalf of the biking community. We can only hope the people in charge wake up one day to see further than the tip of their noses. If they keep a 3- tier system, at least the evaluation process needs a revamp. Hope hope ...

[Limhg]

Nowadays with constantly increasing inflation. Makers are finding it expensive to produce inline four engines priced for the 2A market. If you think about it, its almost the same cost as producing a 600cc inline, just the cylinders are a tad bit smaller each. Parallel twin and singles are whats left if its going to be sold as "reasonably priced". Sucks.. =( More complicated engines cant be made cheaply in china too I guess...

 

I wish the japanese makers decide to invade the territory of the inline triple engine, give Triumph a run for their money.

 

I guess its quite futile to appeal to the authorities as they need alot of work to revamp the system and probably WONT MAKE MONEY out of it. Like the old old issue of allowing motorcycles into Sentosa to the ever increasing COE which doesnt make sense.

 

But we shall fight on.. hopefully one day some motorcycle enthusiast gets up there.

[feilong]

Its been a long time since I've read such long long post. Kudos to thread starter for taking the effort.

 

Just summarizing (for my own benefit) as it gets long and points go amiss after halfway scrolling through all the post:

a) Singapore's 3 Tier system of motorbike licensing should be reviewed (EU and JP has 2 Tier system)

b) Bikes available in SG that fit under the 3 tier system are not necessary in line and in tandem (Performance, BHP,Emission,Cost,Manufacturer's Profitability)

c) If you desire a workhorse, small CC (Class 2B) bikes are the way (lower running cost, lowest requirements on license)

d) if riding is a hobby/passion - whatever sweet ride floats the rider's boat (money aside, you still need to go through the 3 tier system for license)

 

Out of curiosity, are there any CBR250RR with the 45bhp in existence in Singapore?

The discussion in earlier post in regards to not meeting emission standards is not talking about Singapore's yearly vehicle inspection right?

[ooitn]

The very main point that every one missed is:

if you ask any bike manufacturer..all Singapore need is a electric scooter..more than enough on this island road.

[jyew777]

Its been a long time since I've read such long long post. Kudos to thread starter for taking the effort.

 

Just summarizing (for my own benefit) as it gets long and points go amiss after halfway scrolling through all the post:

a) Singapore's 3 Tier system of motorbike licensing should be reviewed (EU and JP has 2 Tier system)

b) Bikes available in SG that fit under the 3 tier system are not necessary in line and in tandem (Performance, BHP,Emission,Cost,Manufacturer's Profitability)

c) If you desire a workhorse, small CC (Class 2B) bikes are the way (lower running cost, lowest requirements on license)

d) if riding is a hobby/passion - whatever sweet ride floats the rider's boat (money aside, you still need to go through the 3 tier system for license)

 

Out of curiosity, are there any CBR250RR with the 45bhp in existence in Singapore?

The discussion in earlier post in regards to not meeting emission standards is not talking about Singapore's yearly vehicle inspection right?

 

very good summary.

[lanfire]

Nice article. I think we will need to wait long long before Singapore decide on the 2 tier system. I got a feeling they doesn't care much about bike and end of the day, there will be not much changes

[crazydj]

The very main point that every one missed is:

if you ask any bike manufacturer..all Singapore need is a electric scooter..more than enough on this island road.

 

I do not mind an electric scooter. But it must have minimum a top speed of 110km/h, easily removable battery pack and have a long range, minimum 160km on a full charge.

[Limhg]

I do not mind an electric scooter. But it must have minimum a top speed of 110km/h, easily removable battery pack and have a long range, minimum 160km on a full charge.

 

And can charge fully under 5 mins.

[mechwira]

The very main point that every one missed is:

if you ask any bike manufacturer..all Singapore need is a electric scooter..more than enough on this island road.

 

i beg to differ. like Limhg and crazydj pointed out, even if you insist that the ridiculous low power of an electric is all you 'need' in singapore, there is still the problem of charging those things. for as long as you need to charge it daily overnight, at home some more (bring up to hdb flat?), it will be impractical. and battery technology has stagnated; they cant even invent a battery that makes our smart phone last one week, what more a vehicle.

[mechwira]

Out of curiosity, are there any CBR250RR with the 45bhp in existence in Singapore?

The discussion in earlier post in regards to not meeting emission standards is not talking about Singapore's yearly vehicle inspection right?

 

i've never seen one in singapore. all the old 250's i've seen are rare two-strokers like the nsr250, rgv250 and tzr250. i think it was never imported into singapore.

 

and the emission discussions are all referring to EU emissions, not LTA.

[mechwira]

Just summarizing (for my own benefit) .....

 

and the summary of the discussions that followed are:

 

1)Whether it is possible to produce a modern 400cc inline-4 engine that meets EU regulations while still having the power output of the old legends. Some say cannot, i say can, but only the manufacturers know i guess.

 

2)Whether there is really a market for hardcore 400cc, or today's riders all go for soft commuter bikes. I say now that Europe is forcing their young riders to a 45bhp limit, yes there is potentially a market.