City Harvest Church

[william_liu]

Got this from following the few links provided. There's always more than one side to the story I believe.

 

And the best part is we are all given the free will to search and read for ourselves, then decide and choose what we want to believe.

 

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/gal_bible.htm

 

What the Bible really says

In several places the Bible seems, if you take it at face value to say that the Earth is unmoving, or that the Sun goes round the Earth. For example, Psalm 19 verses 4-6, Psalm 93 verse 1, Psalm 104 verse 5, and Ecclesiastes chapter 1 verse 5

 

But students have always recognised that in these passages the Bible is not trying to teach us science. Rather, it sometimes uses language in an ordinary 'everday' kind of way describing how things look from the point of view of an observer on the Earth's surface - just as we today (even astronomers!) still talk about the Sun 'rising'.

 

So, for example, as long ago as 1377, Oresme, Bishop of Liseaux, in putting forward the possibility that the Earth moves, said:

 

One can say that [the Bible] conforms in this part to the manner of common human speech...

(Quoted in Forster & Marston p. 314) And Kepler said that when the Scriptures speak about ordinary matters

 

It is not their normal function to instruct men, they do this in a human manner so that they may be understood by men.

So the Bible does not teach that the Earth is at the center, and that the Sun goes round the Earth. Rather, it uses everyday language to describe the way things appear to an Earth-based observer.

 

People today sometimes talk as if everyone before recent times believed the Earth was flat. This is not true, and is remarkably naive. More than two thousand years ago, the ancient Greeks already had a very 'modern' picture of the Solar System.

[comics00]

thks for all the infor bro. long time never touch bible liao due to this thread i start to flip through couple of page. won't be writting much here liao 'cos no time to read anything in detail got to prep for major event. 2 monday from now i'll be away for 5weeks. enjoy this thread hope u guys carry on this "friendly" & interesting topic

[lance666]

[nivleK1985]

interesting

[Ghost00]

you can argue with a christian about his religon till the cows come home....but nothing will go in....they will always think they are right about their god. ..and that the rest of us are all misguided souls. think kingdom of heaven was a very good example...dun waste time, why dun just think of better ways to ease the congestion along the road outside the church which was what this thread started out as? more constructive discussion i think......

[Guest R1szuan]

Anyways just to share with you on some sources i heard.(not confirm reliable) regarding the illegal parking and taxi parking along the road infront of the church has come into the eyes of MP,TP and a few other bodies. They are looking into the matter... nmaybe some enforcement action?

 

maybe they will come up with a solution..... so let just wait.

[speedkills]

Originally posted by 1.37boost@Jun 28 2005, 02:41 PM

waah. the topic went from a practical one (church-goers causing traffic jam) to a philosophical one!

 

tink writing to the TP, with cc to the church and the town council or something is prob a good idea.

 

isn't it amazing how that church has spent so much money on its architecture (the tiered steel facade and the constant waterfall down its external walls) but did not spend on more carparks for its parish, or a wider entrance/exit to ease the jam? tsk-tsk

jus for your info, the land itself isnt big enough to contain a crowd of 11000 when we first moved in. so we couldnt possibly build and expand sideways anymore. we had to dig deeper underground and build upwards. for the whole complex of 9 storeys which includes the roof garden, out of which 4 storeys are carparks. so not that the church does not spare a thought for the residents, my pastor have made announcements to keep our volume low to be considerate to the neighbours, have asked the members to park in the opposite mscp and not congest the other carparks which belongs to the residents. much have been done to ensure that we are not being a public nuisance but a public help to all who are distressed.

 

in the recent tsunamis and quakes and what not, many of our members gave their hard earned money and that also includes the pastors themselves, making sure that we do not jus talk the talk but we practice wad we preach. no doubt in every organization, ther are bound to be black sheeps but we try to always put ourselves in the public shoes and be more sensitive to the surroundings. with that said, i would jus like to promote peace and do be understanding as well, traffic congestion is only a minor issue, sometimes we pick on the most minute thing and miss out on the bigger picture. nobody wans anybody to get hurt / injured. bear with us for another 3-4 months. we are moving to expo as we have already outgrew our current building. so that would settle everyone's prob.

 

no hard feelings

[Throttle]

*yawn*

[speedkills]

Originally posted by Throttle@Jul 23 2005, 03:01 PM

*yawn*

why so bored?

[sheep]

Originally posted by speedkills@Jul 23 2005, 02:42 PM

jus for your info, the land itself isnt big enough to contain a crowd of 11000 when we first moved in. so we couldnt possibly build and expand sideways anymore. we had to dig deeper underground and build upwards. for the whole complex of 9 storeys which includes the roof garden, out of which 4 storeys are carparks. so not that the church does not spare a thought for the residents, my pastor have made announcements to keep our volume low to be considerate to the neighbours, have asked the members to park in the opposite mscp and not congest the other carparks which belongs to the residents. much have been done to ensure that we are not being a public nuisance but a public help to all who are distressed.

 

in the recent tsunamis and quakes and what not, many of our members gave their hard earned money and that also includes the pastors themselves, making sure that we do not jus talk the talk but we practice wad we preach. no doubt in every organization, ther are bound to be black sheeps but we try to always put ourselves in the public shoes and be more sensitive to the surroundings. with that said, i would jus like to promote peace and do be understanding as well, traffic congestion is only a minor issue, sometimes we pick on the most minute thing and miss out on the bigger picture. nobody wans anybody to get hurt / injured. bear with us for another 3-4 months. we are moving to expo as we have already outgrew our current building. so that would settle everyone's prob.

 

no hard feelings

Wow then what abt the multi-million castle in Jurong if u r all moving to Expo?

[spy622]

If dun move better leh....I alway enjoy having Macdonalds breakfast every sunday

[sheep]

Originally posted by spy622@Jul 24 2005, 04:48 PM

If dun move better leh....I alway enjoy having Macdonalds breakfast every sunday

Bio char bo arh...

[w1n8]

Originally posted by spy622@Jul 24 2005, 04:48 PM

If dun move better leh....I alway enjoy having Macdonalds breakfast every sunday

i must confess the cha bor there swee swee bo chau chiye... somemore freeflow kopi

[josean]

first from katong to jurong, now to expo...

 

interesting yeah.

and this is what happens after so many years of arise and build campaign

[redname]

Originally posted by w1n8@Jul 24 2005, 06:43 PM

i must confess the cha bor there swee swee bo chau chiye... somemore freeflow kopi

haha, thts wat i tld my pastor during a snooker session in ymca cause chc also having bible classes at there. aft seeing so many sweet looking gals walking by (the snooker room is jus outsid of the gals toliet), i said "wah, now i understand how come chc got so many guys", he cldn't stop laughing

[speedkills]

Originally posted by josean@Jul 25 2005, 12:19 AM

first from katong to jurong, now to expo...

 

interesting yeah.

and this is what happens after so many years of arise and build campaign

dun worry, the current building will still be fully utilized by our chinese church, children church, dialect church, JAMs church and what nots. probably in a few years time the traffic condition will resumed to today's

 

hahaha

 

the arise and build campaigns are not just about building buildings...its about building lives...more lives that we can touch and change as a church. furthermore, many of us after years of giving still experiences the miracles of God day in day out...so why not? money can always be earned, but how much can you bring along with you when you die? my point is, i rather impact more lives as i can than jus keep earning loads of money. of course if i can have both of bext world why not

 

so conclusion is, years of arise and build have not only gotten us a state of the Art building, it has also impacted many lives and shape many others..

[speedkills]

Originally posted by redname@Jul 25 2005, 12:39 AM

haha, thts wat i tld my pastor during a snooker session in ymca cause chc also having bible classes at there. aft seeing so many sweet looking gals walking by (the snooker room is jus outsid of the gals toliet), i said "wah, now i understand how come chc got so many guys", he cldn't stop laughing

hahaha... i'm sure the younger ones that jus joined us probably came for that reason... but lets not stereotype the whole congregation. many came for the sole purpose that is the presence of God. of course when i first came, honestly it was because of friends..but later on, i realised that being who i was, i needed more than jus a pure excited church, i needed an encouter with God. so tada.. 7 years and i am still here!

[Phantom00]

Originally posted by speedkills@Jul 25 2005, 10:14 AM

dun worry, the current building will still be fully utilized by our chinese church, children church, dialect church, JAMs church and what nots.

 

so conclusion is, years of arise and build have not only gotten us a state of the Art building, it has also impacted many lives and shape many others..

I gather that the main services i.e. the English services will be shifted to the Expo. In the light of the NKF incident is it extravagant to house the other sevices at the current chc bldg?

 

The current bldg incl the land was built at a staggering cost of $40 over million if I am not wrong, and now its not being used for the main services. Would it be better if there were better planning? Would it have been more prudent to get a place where it can hold more people, rather than build a $40 over million bldg with 'state of the art' facilities', with the original intention of housing all services but now only left with mandarin, dialect services and other misc activities?

 

In the light of the NKF incident were the money well spent, and how are the people in charge accountable to the people who had donated much of their hard earned money to the church?

[Guest *Garnet*]

speedkills, u from city harvest?

[MS]

I trust that CHC will utilise the money well. I have been in the church for 3 months, spoken with some old church members and their integrity shouldn't be doubted when it comes to funds. The reason I left the church was due to extreme wrong doctrines in their teachings. Not anything to do with the NKF type of matters. NKF's funds saga couldn't be linked to CHC as both are different organisations.

[speedkills]

Originally posted by Phantom00@Jul 25 2005, 11:14 AM

I gather that the main services i.e. the English services will be shifted to the Expo. In the light of the NKF incident is it extravagant to house the other sevices at the current chc bldg?

 

The current bldg incl the land was built at a staggering cost of $40 over million if I am not wrong, and now its not being used for the main services. Would it be better if there were better planning? Would it have been more prudent to get a place where it can hold more people, rather than build a $40 over million bldg with 'state of the art' facilities', with the original intention of housing all services but now only left with mandarin, dialect services and other misc activities?

 

In the light of the NKF incident were the money well spent, and how are the people in charge accountable to the people who had donated much of their hard earned money to the church?

ok, when we first moved in...we were only 10000 strong. of course we expected to grow and as you know, in singapore the land are only that limited. it wasnt easy to bid for a land and if we had a choice, we would have bought one the size of a stadium. the sole reason we moved was because the lease at paya lebar(old holloywood theatre) was due and we couldnt extend therefore we made plans 4-5 years ahead thats in 1997 to have a building fund. we were barely 5000 members then if i'm not wrong..(wasnt there yet.jus some rough figures. when i joined it was around 9000) so making plans to build a church that could sit 10000 people was already a dream that most churches only dreamed of. well, we finally got the land as no one else would want a place in JURONG!! and honestly, if SIS were to sell their building, i'm sure our members would agree to buy it..ahha

 

so in recent years, we grew and we grew..members started feedback to the board that we needed a new building! just imagine, a 2500-3000 seater hall and we already needed 7 services before we could pack our members in(excluding the other services as mentioned). now if i was the pastor, i would be totally physically drained out. Pst Kong to the church is not jus a preacher and a shepherd. he is like our father constantly caring for each individuals. no doubt his schedules are hectic..he would defitnitely send at least a video call to the church. well, with that said, it is only right that we not only should spare a thought for him, we also needed a bigger place so that we could grow even more. i personally dun like to squeeze and keep queueing up week in week out. i rather something as big as the SIS or national stadium!!

 

If we were to ask the elderly and the childrens, the mentally disabled to move to expo..what would it be to us then? so again, rather than letting the building rot away,we want to let our very own pple use it and maximise the potential. if i could stay of course i wouldnt mind! you must rem that many pple joined after we moved in and i can therefore conclude that many of them live in the vincinity. who in the right frame of mind would wanna move to the other end of singapore if not for certain priorities which mus be set? we have to look at things with different perspectives and from all angles before we can make a conclusion to it.

 

and jus for your information, every cent that our members give are accounted for. thats the reason why i gave over the years with confidence..because which church in the world issues a receipt when you pay your tithe? every few months there will be a AGM for the leaders and members. in which we could voice out our opinions and question the board regarding any issues.

 

sometimes, i personally feel that people should come in and observe for themselves before making certain comments which are really not that beneficial. no doubt i am biase against certain things, i wouldnt voice out until i have personally experienced it and no one is able to clear my doubts on.

 

peace

[speedkills]

Originally posted by MS@Jul 25 2005, 07:34 PM

I trust that CHC will utilise the money well. I have been in the church for 3 months, spoken with some old church members and their integrity shouldn't be doubted when it comes to funds. The reason I left the church was due to extreme wrong doctrines in their teachings. Not anything to do with the NKF type of matters. NKF's funds saga couldn't be linked to CHC as both are different organisations.

MS, i'm sorry to hear of your experience. but what i don't understand is about the part wher you say the extreme wrong teachings..care to elaborate?

 

because if the doctrines arent sound, how is it that my pst is invited all around the world and sought after as a guest preacher in many parts of australia, USA and even to the world's largest church pastored by Dr. Cho Yonggi in Seoul. then maybe they are either compromising on their stand in the doctrine of the Word? first of all, my understanding is that many traditional christians are the kind of word to word christians. that means A means A..B means B. but you must understand one thing, that is, while the Message is sacred, the approach can be different. as the world advances, the people's thinking changes..you cant jus keep going to one person and say that because the bible says that if you don't believe in Jesus, you will die. if i was a person in need, i rather you meet my need. if i needed bread and you come and say God bless you and go your way, how can u expect to reach out to me? what i am trying to get at is...everything in life has to have a balance. that means, we do not just teach the people to pray, we teach them to practice what they preach.

 

one man's meat is another man's poison. while i can tell a person that if you don't believe in Jesus, you will not go to heaven because thats what the bible says! but i cant say that to another. it works for one but for another it would trigger perhaps a negative effect. so i say, the message remain sacred that is we dun say,"oh its ok..you dun believe in Jesus, you will still go to heaven" but rather we reach them with the love of Jesus and whether they choose to believe or not is really up to them. ok goin a little off...but perhaps you can share a little bit here so i can maybe get a clearer picture

 

talk so much haha

[speedkills]

Originally posted by *Garnet*@Jul 25 2005, 05:33 PM

speedkills, u from city harvest?

yeah i am=) you goin for FOP? maybe can see you there

 

drop me a message

 

samuel 91060925

[Phantom00]

Originally posted by speedkills@Jul 25 2005, 11:35 PM

sometimes, i personally feel that people should come in and observe for themselves before making certain comments which are really not that beneficial.

 

If we were to ask the elderly and the childrens, the mentally disabled to move to expo..what would it be to us then? so again, rather than letting the building rot away,we want to let our very own pple use it and maximise the potential.

I understand where you're coming from, but I take issue with your statement "people should come in and observe for themselves before making certain comments which are really not that beneficial." I had indeed gone to City Harvest for a substantial period of time and had observed the belief systems, practices and its operations. I know the history from where it did not have a fixed place for its services, its move to Paya Lebar, the lease problem and its reason cited for moving to Jurong West. I also know of its plush office and had visited it at Suntec Tower.

 

Are you the one now who makes comments / jumps onto conclusions without properly investigating and finding out the background?

 

Now back to my prev post, I think you did not grasp the point. We know members are growing, and based on its rate of growing and the way of evangelising it might be better and more prudent to build an interim bldg rather than an expensive bldg, and later vacate its main services from the bldg. Your explanation on rather let the bldg go to waste it has now arrange for the elderly and children etc to fill the bldg does not address the issue. Rather, it is similar to after making a mistake you find some ways to lessen the consequences of the mistake. Grasp the issue - the point is abt proper planning and considerations, not a damage control reaction.

[Phantom00]

Originally posted by MS@Jul 25 2005, 07:34 PM

I trust that CHC will utilise the money well. I have been in the church for 3 months, spoken with some old church members and their integrity shouldn't be doubted when it comes to funds. The reason I left the church was due to extreme wrong doctrines in their teachings. Not anything to do with the NKF type of matters. NKF's funds saga couldn't be linked to CHC as both are different organisations.

The point I was making was not abt the integrity on money matters. You missed the point. Even if it were not so, 2 different organisations does not mean they will have different ways of operations and mindsets.

 

However, I endorse what speedkills had said abt City Harvest's teachings and doctrines. I note that some of the doctrines have been misrepresented by members who do not truly understand them. And of course there are also recipients of the teachings/doctrines who misinterpret what had been taught to them due to limited understanding and erroneous thinking. I would say the Pastor preaches very sound and solid doctrines.