Mito Riders

[Father John]

Originally posted by fnee@February 14, 2007 03:37 am

hmm i thought all along blipping is to prevent engine braking as during heavy engine braking.

 

come to think of it, it was richard frm this thread who taught me clutchless upshifting. lol.

You cannot prevent engine braking in any gear unless you clutch in. Engineering will tell you that. Now, I remember about blipping. It's to counter the force that's coming down. Because as you decelerate, you'll have a force coming down, i.e. engine braking and you counter it by blipping and so reduce the impact on the gears.

[Kuro_Tenshi]

anyway, from what i believe.. eventually, the rider is going to change not only his clutch plate but as well as the whole gear box.

[jonathan543]

Originally posted by Father John@February 14, 2007 02:48 am

Firstly, I want ask, are you a mechanic or do you know anything about engineering? Because the point here is this. If clutching in when shifting up gears will damage your clutch plates, tell me why all over the world, professional instructors tell us to clutch in when change gears? If it were to wear the clutch plates out so fast, why they teach it anyway? If you know anything about bike engineering, you'll know that when you clutch in, the clutch disengages from the gear box. If you just change the gears without using the clutch, it creates more friction and more wear and tear.

 

I know what you mean by that technique, I used to do that until my mechanic told me it'd be high gear wear and so now, I clutch in near the biting point when I kick up the gear, it works perfectly.

 

I'd like also like to say, it's logic to know when you have higher rpm and higher speed, the engine is generating more power, and so the clutch plates and the gears are grinding with more force, thus creating higher wear and tear. Lower gears have more tourque, less power, it's logic.

 

Quote from you:i supposed all the gears inside the gearbox are spinning so fast that the changing gear would slip into higher gear smoothly and easily.

 

What do you mean by that? Higher gears have lower torque, but higher velocity and force, thus if you don't clutch in properly, the wear and tear will be higher.

hi bro, u are very professional and knowlegable in ur points. and very strong in your opinons! no offenses but kindly allow me to try to explain, but not from a professional view or position, but in a simple way which i hope everybody would understand, since from wad i've read up now, my point of view is still being misunderstood. pls bear with me.

 

i never mentioned on damaging the plates when engaging the clutch on changing gear. pls dun sound it out as if i'm emphasising clutchless gear shift IS the correct thing to do, whether starting off from a stop or when cruising.

 

i never mentioned using the clutch on gear shifts would wear out the plates fast.

 

clutch operates through friction & presure between the plates... yes? given two scenairos-

1. the plates are engaged all the way, from mid rpm all the way up. yes, given the torque or to some other reasons, the plates might still slipped a little, but was never released.

2. the plates would be released(clutch was engaged for gear shifts), where the rpm would drop lower in the gearbox since there was no more driving force.

when the gear shift is completed, the plates would be pressed(released the clutch) against each other again, taking note the rpm between the clutch and the gearbox are diff.

in the process be4 the plates had fully worked for identical rpms to be built in the clutch and the gearbox, the plates will slip until the friction had built up sufficiently to fully engage the clutch.

 

in both cases, which clutch plates would wear out faster? period.

 

and in any cases, i only say i did clutchless up shifts on wot.

 

and of course, it takes practise to upshift w/o clutching in correctly and safely. i did mentioned earlier ma.

 

of course i knew the light clutching in method wit slight close in throttle. but the rpm still came down by abit, or having trouble to climb up fast again.

 

if the clutch, as explained above, was not engaged/disengaged, and u can shift smoothly up without grinding the gearbox(due to improper or imcomplete gear shift), is it more efficient? wear/tear rate would be minimal?

 

and i quote ur last two points below- supposed every gear are running at a high speed, and u *can possibly* shift up with minimal drop in rpm(less torque at high speed means the gear will not be dat stressed when it's being accelerated up in the rpm after the gear shift), and w/o grinding the gearbox, will the wear/tear rate goes up compared to the plates having to be seperated again and again , regularly trying to match the rpm diff beween the clutch and the gearbox using friction?

 

pls pls wad i'm trying to point out while clutchless shifting might be more efficient, i certainly not recommend for anyone to try out on daily riding! as i had pointed out countless times, for wot only!

[jonathan543]

Originally posted by Father John@February 14, 2007 03:05 am

I believe you forgot your bike lessons at the driving centre. The meaning of half clutch is to clutch in near to or past the biting point. Did'nt you remember your 1st 2B lesson where you had to control the bike at half clutch and bang the tyres? Half clutch control taught by the driving schools is for slow speed control or using to SLOWLY build up the power in that gear.

 

Another thing, I once tuned my biting point too close to the grip and ended having to change my clutch plates. Listening to what people have to say, I agree with them about tuning your biting point further from the grip. Point being that by just pulling in the clutch slightly, you can disengage the gear. If you tune the biting point too close to the grip, you create too much tension in the clutch wire especially when you turn the handle bar to one side and your clutch plates will wear out like mine.

 

The gearbox will wear out over time, and so finding neutral gear will be more difficult. I've seen many people having difficulty kicking into neutral when parking. Simple, just clutch in, turn off the engine, release clutch, clutch in again and many times if not all the time, you'll be able to kick into neutral. If no, maybe your gear may not be engaged properly, so just push it forward and back for the gear to engage and repeat the steps.

well bro, u had again misunderstood me. of course i know u had to half clutch when moving off slope, through slow traffic... pls read up more carefully in my previous post!

 

the term half clutching i mentioned, now, meant let's say ur 2000rpm below the redline. u wan the bike to reach it faster w/o dropping a gear. wad would u do?

dropping it meant wasting time koz the engine might be over revved on the lower gear.

most ppl would depressed the clutch lever until almost precisely at the biting point where the plates would started to slip and the rpm would started to raise. when done correctly, u can speed up even faster up the rpm range. and again, in doing so will subject the plates being wearing out faster, as i had earlier quoted.

 

i had also explained on ur 2nd last point. if the biting point is too close to the grip, u risk not fully engaging the clutch. so when u had clutch in and kicked to 1st gear, ur actually grinding the plates, since they're not fully disengaged, leading to premature worn out plates.

the clutch wire tension had nothing to do with plates wearing out. is whether the clutch had been engaged *enough* or not to prevent grinding of the plates, something like ur half clutching w/o u noeing.

 

i 2nd ur last point. but turning off the engine will also turn off the neutral lights, which is a slight inconvenience.

for most ppl-

1. throw the engine kill switch and find it. if the gear appeared to be unable to shift, release the clutch and push the bike until the gear had caught, and try again.

but not recommended since using the engine kill switch will damage the electricals. from wad i heard caused 4t bikes to have problem cause the switch creates a closed circuit which might stress the cdi/computor. the instructors in driving sch might have pointed out be4.

2. rev the bike up slightly, when the rpm had juz start to drop, the neutral is easier to find.

[jonathan543]

Originally posted by Father John@February 14, 2007 03:11 am

Like I said, my mechanic told me shiftless clutch will have heavier wear and tear. I used to do that.

 

don't close throttle and pull in the clutch slightly and shift up (which makes the bike scream and destroys the clutch plates

 

Personally, when I down shift, I'll clutch in past the biting point, blip the throttle (blip= open throttle), at the same time, drop my gear, then release clutch slowly. If you don't believe, go hear the big bikes when they drop gear without blipping, you'll hear a loud sound. That's because you're dropping gears from a less torquey gear to a more torquey gear. Blipping would be like jumping from 2nd storey to 1st storey, and not blipping would be like 5th storey to 1st storey, which would be more painful? I know blipping works because I tried in on my super4, before and after, and found that blipping has a nicer sound when down shifting.

clutchless shift, *if* done correctly does have minimal wear. but pls disregard this point since ur opinion is still firm:smile:

 

bro, pls read up carefully on the posts... ur still missing out on alot of points we all trying to say here. we are standing on our point, and explaining as clearly as we had tried.

all might sound wrong or incorrect/improper, but we are trying to explain the logic behind them...

[jonathan543]

Originally posted by Father John@February 14, 2007 03:34 am

Nope, you don't prevent engine braking. I don't see what's wrong with engine braking. I love it. Think about it, it you're travelling at such a high speed, especially on a big bike, you definately need your brakes and engine braking to slow you down. Know what you mean about pressing your brakes harder. It takes some to get used to, braking, blipping and down shifting.

 

If i'm not wrong, blipping is better on the engine overall, to reduce the wear and tear. I know it's recommended especially for those going to track because on the track, you are whacking at very high rmp's. You blip to counter the impact downshifting has on the engine. Dunno how to explain in engineering terms. Just that when you blip, your rpm should be equal to or higher than the rpm that the pistons are moving at. This have to feel the bike, there's no sterotype, depends on the situation.

haiz bro bro....

let me strongly emphasize, that how a 4t and a 2t engine is being designed, engine brake can be safely applied to a 4t engine, but a big nono to a 2t engine.

 

of course engine braking makes slowing down safer and more controllable.

of course gives more tire traction. infact i wished i can do so on my 2t bike, but in order to prolong its service life, i choose not to do so, unless in rainy/slippery conditions, i would keep my rpm down and engine brake with f/r brakes.

 

there's nothing wrong with engine brake, except it's slowly ruining the 2t engine. a 2t engine okie?

how much u understand on a 2t engine? even so, on a high rpm u tried to engine brake w/o using the brake on a 4t bike, ur slowly destroying it.

ever heard seized 4t pistons? pretty uncommon but wad do u think had happened?

 

pls have patience with me while i tried to explain the myth of engine braking on 2t bike.

 

2t engine did not have a delicated lubrication system like a 4t engine. the oil sump in the 4t engine cools off the piston by taking heat away and splashing oil(when the con arm goes up from below the oil) on the cylinder walls below the rings to keep it constantly lubricated.

2t engine dun. cooling in fact depends heavily on the intake of air/fuel mixture and 2t oil. the mixture would flow into the hollow crankcase, where the 2t oil would coat all the bearings and the rotating parts to lubricate them. and the cylinder walls below the piston ring too.

why proper jettings is essential and crucial to the life of a 2t engine? simple. the mixture must not allowed to be ignited and combusted completely. the unburnt fuel is needed to take the excessive heat away from the combustion chamber, although the 2t oil might be playing a small part.

so a mocha brown colour plug is idea- grey to greyish white means too lean and possibly the engine is running too hot. black means too much unburnt fuel and having an inefficient combustion and power. plugs would be fouled easily too due to too much carbon.

 

when the 2t bike had wot for sometime, the engine will get very hot. and when u engine brake, you are severely cutting off the mixture supply, which takes the unwanted heat away. not to mention cutting down the 2t oil needed to protect the bearings/rotating parts from more wear. this will cause the combustion chamber to heat up even more, possibly overheated and seized the piston/melt the piston top.

since the required 2t oil is not enough, the bottom end bearings will possibly gets worn out even faster.

 

bro, one important thing to take note, we are all riding a 2t bike, not a 4t, from which u can safely apply engine brake with minimal problems.

 

as quoted somewhere- u ride like a racer, u pay(damages) like a racer... dats y professional racers are sponsered!

- throttle is for moving; brakes is for slowing.

[jonathan543]

Originally posted by Kuro_Tenshi@February 14, 2007 07:40 am

anyway, from what i believe.. eventually, the rider is going to change not only his clutch plate but as well as the whole gear box.

i had made my point, but nobody catches it

i do clutchless up shift on wot, dat is when clearing meter. i did not do it when cruising or at partial throttle openings, although it can be done.

i do so almost every other weekend for supper at perling/kulai. and i wot all the way @150+km/h(close to 180km/h on my fren's rvf), blipping when clutching in every now any then.

why travel dat fast one might ask? koz other bikes are too fast liao haha...

 

a very interesting debate, which i can sense hostility. but well we are firm to our views and so let's juz enjoy our ride, ride safe and hope our dear bikes can provide us wit many yrs of service!

 

[kwyjibo]

Originally posted by Father John@February 14, 2007 02:48 am

Firstly, I want ask, are you a mechanic or do you know anything about engineering? Because the point here is this. If clutching in when shifting up gears will damage your clutch plates, tell me why all over the world, professional instructors tell us to clutch in when change gears? If it were to wear the clutch plates out so fast, why they teach it anyway? If you know anything about bike engineering, you'll know that when you clutch in, the clutch disengages from the gear box. If you just change the gears without using the clutch, it creates more friction and more wear and tear.

I believe Mr super-long-winded-and-super free Jon SPECIFICALLY mentioned that if you do clutchless upshift PROPERLY, there will b less wear on ur clutch plates n no extra stress on ur gearbox. So why e unnecessary n worthless debate? There may b split opinions in various forums if you google but overall most experienced riders, experts n motorcycle mags states that clutchless upshift does not damage e transmission in e long run, that is if u do it PROPERLY.

Note that clutchless upshift is not solely for track only.

 

Well of course there is no need to listen to a big fat potato couch like me who is not proficient in automobile engineering. I will recommend reading up more motorcycle mags to understand better on how your motorcycle transmission works. Hopefully these r respectable nuf sources to b quoted :

 

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/RSS/146_040...ess_upshifting/

http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/shifting.html

 

In summary "A motorcycle gearbox differs from your typical automobile transmission in that it can actually change gears under a small load, and only needs a slight interruption in the flow of power to accomplish an upshift. Its constant-mesh, sequential dog-engagement design means it can change gears much more readily than a typical automobile synchromesh transmission that requires an almost total stop in power flow, which is why using the clutch is necessary for upshifts in manual-transmission cars."

 

Anyway to ans ur question on why professional instructors teach us to clutch in fully when changing gears, it is to ensure that a beginner will disengage e load fully b4 engaging. I think everybody will agree with me that beginners do need to learn things step by step. For eg, driving centres in SG teaches you to brake with 4 fingers, teachs you to stop with e left leg down, teaches you not to leave ur foot underneath ur gear lever, blah blah. Do you practise all these?

 

Now you may ask so why do e engineerers devise a clutch in e first place.

Thats simple to ans. For moving off and for downshifting (Clutchless downshifting is another debate but most people believe if you do practise it, its for 2 strokes only). Another way to ans this question is that these engineers do devise a quieter silencer, heavier wheels, blah blah, do u stick with these?

 

The key point here to less wear on ur clutch and no extra stress on ur gearbox is PROPER shifting. If you r still not really comfortable, you can always use e preload shifting method which witchblade proposes. Well to say whether it produces less wear than clutchless upshift is not for me to say. Both methods do produce smoother rides. The clear advantage with clutchless upshift is that it is faster and more stable to the bike dynamics during shifting. Most imptly, regardless which method you choose in e end, whether e conventional shifting mthd where you clutch in fully, e preload mthd or e clutchless mthd, pls do it PROPERLY.

[kwyjibo]

Originally posted by jonathan543@February 14, 2007 09:18 am

i had made my point, but nobody catches it

i do clutchless up shift on wot, dat is when clearing meter. i did not do it when cruising or at partial throttle openings, although it can be done.

i do so almost every other weekend for supper at perling/kulai. and i wot all the way @150+km/h(close to 180km/h on my fren's rvf), blipping when clutching in every now any then.

why travel dat fast one might ask? koz other bikes are too fast liao haha...

 

a very interesting debate, which i can sense hostility. but well we are firm to our views and so let's juz enjoy our ride, ride safe and hope our dear bikes can provide us wit many yrs of service!

 

Jon trying to b diplomatic eh. I just realised u really flood e whole thread. Super long winded leh u. U ought to b ban!

Its your prob that ur Planet is too slow. Finally u realised e truth. This time when u go view ur 250 u better ask me along too. Dont b like that Ben secretly go buy dont let me know.

 

 

GP Town reunion breakfast

Sat 17th Feb, CNY Eve.

0800H at Jurong Pt 7-11.

Point of contact is Mr Jon.

 

0. Me

1. Jon, 92793749

2. Ben

3. Richard

4. Kunli?

5. Jackson?

 

Uncle John, witchblade, fnee, Kuro_Tenshi do pls join us.

[fnee]

CNY eve got stuff to do alr ): but anywya thanks for the invitation.

 

like jonathan, i still believe in clutchless upshifting. lol.

 

clutchless upshifting will not wear the clutch plates at all because no clutch is used at all!

[witchblade]

Originally posted by gekokujyou@February 14, 2007 10:58 am

Jon trying to b diplomatic eh. I just realised u really flood e whole thread. Super long winded leh u. U ought to b ban!

Its your prob that ur Planet is too slow. Finally u realised e truth. This time when u go view ur 250 u better ask me along too. Dont b like that Ben secretly go buy dont let me know.

 

 

GP Town reunion breakfast

Sat 17th Feb, CNY Eve.

0800H at Jurong Pt 7-11.

Point of contact is Mr Jon.

 

0. Me

1. Jon, 92793749

2. Ben

3. Richard

4. Kunli?

5. Jackson?

 

Uncle John, witchblade, fnee, Kuro_Tenshi do pls join us.

thanks for the offer.. well, i doubt i cn make it. cos on friday, im going kulai to eat for late dinner!! so dun think i be able to wake up in time for breakfast with you all. *chuckle* bn craving for all week. been damn cramp up at home for quite sometime due to exams.

[witchblade]

btw, who is uncle john??? *puzzle n wondering*

[jonathan543]

thanks to geko for his post and links. very subtle in his words!

ben's rs250 had turned out to be a shorted ignition wire... its running okie now. would be picking up tomorrow. geko free to give me a ride to excel cycles tomorrow? dying for dat 250 rush again...

[witchblade]

any1 know wat is the market price of keihin/KELHIN carb? cos im planing to sell mine away.

[jonathan543]

ask for advice or enquire from aprilia thread... they are more experienced in trading & pricing bike parts.

[Sub Zero]

Originally posted by jonathan543@February 16, 2007 10:02 am

ask for advice or enquire from aprilia thread... they are more experienced in trading & pricing bike parts.

Wah..

 

Ben got rs250 ah? Jus saw him afew days ago at Cityhall side.. But he was riding his Mito..

 

Jon, you getting rs250 eh?? Haiz.. all going to smoke me and my poor rs125..

[Sub Zero]

Geko,

 

Where have u been man?? hardly see you on MSN.. see also, you dont respond..

 

How's your rs250?? You coming for 25th Feb track day??

[kwyjibo]

GP Town reunion breakfast

Sat 17th Feb, CNY Eve.

0800H at Jurong Pt 7-11.

Point of contact is Mr Jon.

 

0. Me

1. Jon, 92793749

2. Ben

3. Richard

4. Kunli

 

Vik want join us tmr?

 

Ben having e 250 is old news already! Yeah now he have 2 bikes. Waiting for a gd offer to sell his Mito only.

 

I am just busy with sch n work. Track day most prob i will take off n b there. If u want to go on other days just MSN me.

Eh I dont talk on MSN with black guys. Black girls hell yeah! But guys erm...mm..erm..yeah if it is Mr Vik! Hahas.

[jonathan543]

he havent got his 2a, and i'm his rs250's subrider ma. so had been experiencing the awesome speed surge(or maybe i'm stuck wit 125 for too long le) until i cant tahan liao, might be buying one if the condition's and the price's rite. i'm going strictly for the rocket(cute) butty replica series... not ugly butty haha!

 

saw a rs250 at fm, purple wit strips, if i din recall wrongly? how's the condition and price asked for that cute butty?

[amgm125]

Well erm ok..now the whole world knoes..hahas. Well basically, i think it's very hard for my RS250 to be an everyday bike to replace my mito. Judging from the rate it drinks petrol and 2T makes continuing to ride my mito as an everyday transport to work and the 250 as a weekend bike sounds more realistic. Well, unless some jetting and fine tuning goes into the engine then we'll see.

 

Finally someone is addicted to the power surge of the 250 le. Judge from the fact a few months ago saying that he'll be sticking to his planet and will not ride a sportsbike or upgrade. Look who's looking around for a used rs 250 now hahahahas

[haowei]

hey guys, when first motor then reopen?

[witchblade]

say~~ can anybody help me on this? embrassing to ask but i need to know. how do u check whether the arrow pipe is st legal or illegal?

[witchblade]

sigh.. this is dumb.. can anyone tell me hw to delete the photo tat is on my signature.. *dumb founded* accidentally key in twice n end up see this.

 

therefore, at the present, i have block it.

[jonathan543]

st legal arrows came wit an eec/ luxcontrol cert, which is stamped/ approved by lta, and should be carried along with the bike at all times.

there should be a serial number stamped at above where the exhaust pipe ends and on the metal tab where the expansion chamber is bolted onto the main frame.

i believe u need to go to biketech21 to transfer ownership, and to the lta/ inspection center to have it approved again, for a fee of $50+.

bt21's transfer fees u gotta enquire @63921230.

is that a mito 250? damned... does it really exists?

[amgm125]

There's no mito 250. But you can build one. I've seen someone built it in the uk. hahaha, then there's no need for the rs 250 le.