Revision of Class 2 license system

[mechwira]

i've had this idea in my head for a long time. how bout changing the motorcycle license system to as follows:

 

Riders aged 21 and above

 

they will go for circuit and road lessons and tests on 250/400cc bikes. upon passing, they will be awarded Class 2A, ie, eligible to ride motorcycles of up to 400cc, for 1 year after date of passing. after 1 year, they will be awarded Class 2, ie, motorcycles of 400cc and above, without a need for any further tests, road or circuit; in other words, automatic upgrade.

 

Riders between 18 and 21 years old

 

they will go for curcuit and road lessons and tests on 125/150cc bikes. upon passing, they will be awarded class 2B, ie, eligible to ride bikes up to 200cc, until the age of 21, regardless of years of riding experience. upon hitting the age of 21, even if less than 1 year of 2B at this point, they will be eligible to take lessons and tests on 250/400cc bikes, circuit only, no road, and upon passing be awarded Class 2A and will be then be same as i mentioned earlier. 1 year of up to 400cc, then automatic upgrade to Class 2.

 

 

i got the idea coz most western countries dun have our system of 3 tiered motorcycle license. even Japan has phased out its old system, causing sportsbikes of 400cc to completely go out of prouction. i heard in australia, its the same system as my first paragraph.

 

will it make it easier for ppl to get bike license, causing more riders on the road? i dont think so. number of riders is 'controlled' by the first time any rider is awarded Class 2B. my system does not change this at all, only the capacity of the bikes.

 

will it produce less safe riders? heres an interesting issue to discuss. i dont think so. are we any less capable than our western counterparts? i just feel that this way, we save lots of time and money. i dun feel a need for me to take class 2 and go thru the same circuit a third time in my life. waste my time and money and how does it really make me a better rider any more than going out on a class 2 bike immediately, bearing in mind my system also has in place a necessary 1 year riding adjustment period.

[WildCard]

Originally posted by mechwira@May 19 2004, 11:35 PM

i've had this idea in my head for a long time. how bout changing the motorcycle license system to as follows:

 

Riders aged 21 and above

 

they will go for circuit and road lessons and tests on 250/400cc bikes. upon passing, they will be awarded Class 2A, ie, eligible to ride motorcycles of up to 400cc, for 1 year after date of passing. after 1 year, they will be awarded Class 2, ie, motorcycles of 400cc and above,without a need for any further tests, road or circuit; in other words, automatic upgrade.

 

Riders between 18 and 21 years old

 

they will go for curcuit and road lessons and tests on 125/150cc bikes. upon passing, they will be awarded class 2B, ie, eligible to ride bikes up to 200cc, until the age of 21, regardless of years of riding experience. upon hitting the age of 21, even if less than 1 year of 2B at this point, they will be eligible to take lessons and tests on 250/400cc bikes, circuit only, no road, and upon passing be awarded Class 2A and will be then be same as i mentioned earlier. 1 year of up to 400cc, then automatic upgrade to Class 2.

 

 

i got the idea coz most western countries dun have our system of 3 tiered motorcycle license. even Japan has phased out its old system, causing sportsbikes of 400cc to completely go out of prouction. i heard in australia, its the same system as my first paragraph.

 

will it make it easier for ppl to get bike license, causing more riders on the road? i dont think so. number of riders is 'controlled' by the first time any rider is awarded Class 2B. my system does not change this at all, only the capacity of the bikes.

 

will it produce less safe riders? heres an interesting issue to discuss. i dont think so. are we any less capable than our western counterparts? i just feel that this way, we save lots of time and money. i dun feel a need for me to take class 2 and go thru the same circuit a third time in my life. waste my time and money and how does it really make me a better rider any more than going out on a class 2 bike immediately, bearing in mind my system also has in place a necessary 1 year riding adjustment period.

 

I agree with most except the point highlighted....

An automatic upgrade may not be safe. Maybe an auto upgrade from 200cc to 400cc is more apt.

But knowing riders these days, if given a chance, most will make a big jump to 1litre. It would be better to assess them and make sure they know their big bikes well.

Example? Lifting a bike from the ground. Looks easy at training centre, especially the method. Until I dropped my own TLR.

 

Just my $0.02 worth.

[Guest RG]

Originally posted by mechwira@May 19 2004, 11:35 PM

i've had this idea in my head for a long time. how bout changing the motorcycle license system to as follows:

 

Riders aged 21 and above

 

they will go for circuit and road lessons and tests on 250/400cc bikes. upon passing, they will be awarded Class 2A, ie, eligible to ride motorcycles of up to 400cc, for 1 year after date of passing. after 1 year, they will be awarded Class 2, ie, motorcycles of 400cc and above, without a need for any further tests, road or circuit; in other words, automatic upgrade.

 

i got the idea coz most western countries dun have our system of 3 tiered motorcycle license. even Japan has phased out its old system, causing sportsbikes of 400cc to completely go out of prouction. i heard in australia, its the same system as my first paragraph.

 

U must have heard wrongly.

There is no automatic upgrade in Australia.

Still have to take test den can upgrade.

[StingRhea]

But why does age have to be such a big issue then?

[jason_fz6]

interesting

 

with your proposed system the market for 400cc bikes will die. how many 400cc bikes do you see OTR? you can see the tiered licensing system as a market mechanism for motorbikes. with any change in policy, money is a very important factor.

 

i think your proposed 2 tiered system will work well together with the existing DIPS system. perhaps a license for 250cc below and 600cc above, provided there is enough market impetus for such a change.

 

i think a licensing change is inevitable, considering the global market for 400cc bikes is dwindling i.e. theres no incentive for manufacturers and governments to impose a 400cc limit. most new bikes seem to be 250cc below and 600cc above.

 

that said, it will take a major political or economic event to prompt a change in any system in singapore. e.g. a direct result of the FTA with the USA prompted the implementation of a new movie classification system here - ensuring a larger market for hollywood films and media products. now more people can watch movies that would have been rated R(A) under the old system.

ISPs are starting to take action against illegal downloads of copyrighted media. the police is stepping up checks on software pirates.

 

if only the US had a major motorcycle manufacturer it might force the gahment's hand in changing its licensing policy as well.

 

lastly, does age matter when it comes to handling a bike and riding safely? or does maturity and education? a different system based on age will have its flaws and debatable points as well.

[mechwira]

Originally posted by WildCard@May 20 2004, 11:16 AM

I agree with most except the point highlighted....

An automatic upgrade may not be safe. Maybe an auto upgrade from 200cc to 400cc is more apt.

But knowing riders these days, if given a chance, most will make a big jump to 1litre. It would be better to assess them and make sure they know their big bikes well.

Example? Lifting a bike from the ground. Looks easy at training centre, especially the method. Until I dropped my own TLR.

 

Just my $0.02 worth.

fair point, but consider that drivers, upon passing their class 3, are able to immediately jump onto high performance cars like lancer evo, impreza wrx, skylines, even nsx and ferraris and porsches. these cars are easily the performance equivalent of at least a 600cc sportsbikes, perhaps even a top-of-the-line 1000cc sportsbike. what makes the driver more capable than the rider? frankly i think a car does more damage.

 

fair point about a toppled bike, but if thats the only difference between high performance cars and high performance bikes, u really feel that this minor point is enuff to tell riders they cannot immediately jump onto higher capacity bikes?

 

taking 2A and 2 involves merely riding around the circuit with a higher capacity bike. sure, it introduces a person to the bigger bike, but does it make enuff of a difference to the rider to warrant a minimum of $300 and 3 months?

[mechwira]

Originally posted by RG@May 20 2004, 01:27 PM

U must have heard wrongly.

There is no automatic upgrade in Australia.

Still have to take test den can upgrade.

mebbe its different in defferemt parts of australia, but a fren of mine studying there did take the lessons, and this is wat he related to me:

 

the lessons used the hornet250. pass the theory and u can ride up to 400cc, no pillion allowed. pass the circuit test and u get to ride, for 1 year after that, up to 400cc without pillion. after 1 year, anything goes.

[mechwira]

Originally posted by StingRhea@May 20 2004, 03:08 PM

But why does age have to be such a big issue then?

frankly, i just added it to anticipate the cunter-argument about riders under 21 being the most prone to serous and fatal accidents. to be honest, i agree with the counter-argument, but i feel the focus is the age/maturity, not the capacity. but then again, ppl 'upstairs' might not so readily understand or agree, hence my pre-emptive strike.

[mechwira]

Originally posted by jasonX9@May 20 2004, 03:16 PM

interesting

 

with your proposed system the market for 400cc bikes will die. how many 400cc bikes do you see OTR? you can see the tiered licensing system as a market mechanism for motorbikes. with any change in policy, money is a very important factor.

 

i think your proposed 2 tiered system will work well together with the existing DIPS system. perhaps a license for 250cc below and 600cc above, provided there is enough market impetus for such a change.

 

i think a licensing change is inevitable, considering the global market for 400cc bikes is dwindling i.e. theres no incentive for manufacturers and governments to impose a 400cc limit. most new bikes seem to be 250cc below and 600cc above.

 

that said, it will take a major political or economic event to prompt a change in any system in singapore. e.g. a direct result of the FTA with the USA prompted the implementation of a new movie classification system here - ensuring a larger market for hollywood films and media products. now more people can watch movies that would have been rated R(A) under the old system.

ISPs are starting to take action against illegal downloads of copyrighted media. the police is stepping up checks on software pirates.

 

if only the US had a major motorcycle manufacturer it might force the gahment's hand in changing its licensing policy as well.

 

lastly, does age matter when it comes to handling a bike and riding safely? or does maturity and education? a different system based on age will have its flaws and debatable points as well.

like you said, the market for 400cc bikes is already dead. globally, 400cc bikes are a no-factor. even the RS250 has gone out of production. the only such bikes i can think of still available as new are super4, hornet250, the new twister cbx250 (interestingly all honda). the rest are are the various scooters/skippers (which are a market all their own), and no sportsbikes. why? coz nobody else in the world outside of SEA have our system or anything similar.

 

i'd like to confess that one of the factors that gave me this idea is the very fact that the 400cc market is dead. theres a large variety of 2B bikes available, and same for 600cc and 1000cc bikes. but 250/400cc? i strongly feel that the current trend of bike production has made our Class 2A license obsolete. the presence of the Super4 is not because of the existence of a market here. far from it, it exists because theres a market for it in Japan despite the fact that these ppl riding the Super4 are fully allowed to ride bigger capacity bikes. we're the only place outside of Japan which gets the Super4. if tomorrow the market for super4 dies, and honda stops producing it, tell me, what can we do with a class 2A? dont forget, all other 2nd hand 250/400cc models like the sportsbikes are getting older and dwindling every year.

 

and regarding the age issue, pls see my earlier explanation. like i explained, it is merely an anticipated counter to possible arguments. yes, i do feel age, particularly under 21, is an issue regarding maturity of the rider, but NOT the capacity of the bike. hence truthfully, if u are gonna say no need for the Class 2B for under21, i realli will not argue.

[mechwira]

Originally posted by jasonX9@May 20 2004, 03:16 PM

that said, it will take a major political or economic event to prompt a change in any system in singapore. e.g. a direct result of the FTA with the USA prompted the implementation of a new movie classification system here - ensuring a larger market for hollywood films and media products. now more people can watch movies that would have been rated R(A) under the old system.

ISPs are starting to take action against illegal downloads of copyrighted media. the police is stepping up checks on software pirates.

 

if only the US had a major motorcycle manufacturer it might force the gahment's hand in changing its licensing policy as well.

oh, and regarding this point, well hey somebody has to get the ball rolling right?

 

but i disagree about your point regarding US influence. my proposal does not affect the US trade in motorcycles in any way. US is not a factor at all in our local motorcycle industry, minus their harleys, which in no way will be affected by my proposal since they all are at least 800cc anyway. in fact, i dun see how a change will adversely affect any major producer of motorcycles. we dont import any malaysian made bikes excpet the TZM, and thailand's and korea's small bikes will still be in demand coz they're not due to our license system, ppl want them despite availability of bigger bikes due to economic considerations.

[Guest RG]

Originally posted by mechwira@May 20 2004, 05:31 PM

mebbe its different in defferemt parts of australia, but a fren of mine studying there did take the lessons, and this is wat he related to me:

 

the lessons used the hornet250. pass the theory and u can ride up to 400cc, no pillion allowed. pass the circuit test and u get to ride, for 1 year after that, up to 400cc without pillion. after 1 year, anything goes.

Yes, u r right, I know in Victoria n Tasmania they restricted the 'R' license for 12mths. After 12mths, it is unrestricted w/o having to take any test.

But within the 12mths period, the rider is only allowed up to 260CC(in VIC).

 

 

Ride up to 400CC with a restricted 'R' license? where is your friend located?

[WildCard]

Originally posted by mechwira@May 20 2004, 05:25 PM

fair point, but consider that drivers, upon passing their class 3, are able to immediately jump onto high performance cars like lancer evo, impreza wrx, skylines, even nsx and ferraris and porsches. these cars are easily the performance equivalent of at least a 600cc sportsbikes, perhaps even a top-of-the-line 1000cc sportsbike. what makes the driver more capable than the rider? frankly i think a car does more damage.

 

fair point about a toppled bike, but if thats the only difference between high performance cars and high performance bikes, u really feel that this minor point is enuff to tell riders they cannot immediately jump onto higher capacity bikes?

 

taking 2A and 2 involves merely riding around the circuit with a higher capacity bike. sure, it introduces a person to the bigger bike, but does it make enuff of a difference to the rider to warrant a minimum of $300 and 3 months?

If not riding ard a circuit, at least an assessment?

They can volunteer for non-compulsory lessons, but a compulsory test might be useful...

[necrosis]

Maybe someone should write in to the traffic police and bring up all these points, times have changed and the authorities should move with the times. Currently i feel that the class 2B riding test is already of a very high standard, new riders are much better as compared to; say 10years ago. Take the UK for instance, they have a scheme called a direct access thingy, after getting a riding licence eg. 2B for a year; they are allowed to take the direct access test on a 500cc bike. After passing that test you can ride aany class. (read on the Mags so hope this is accurate) I am surprise that the Japs have changed their regulations. Thanks for the info though! All along i thought the 400cc is based on a rd tax cap. Any bike bigger than 400cc will have to pay outrageous taxes. (or is it that they have this licence class like us that why the 400s are so popular... Please enlighten. Thanks~!)

Even Automatic car driving test are allowed in singapore already just like in Japan.

[rAjOaNa]

very gd pts made by everyone.

I have to agree 200++ - 400cc bikes getting less common day by day n many coutries even in asia also.

 

I think age/maturity i would agree. But skill...not every individual is the same.

I know older riders who have class 2 and they are in their mid 20s or late 20s their riding metality "no tomorrow" so it doesn't makes any diffrence.

 

i Got this fren who is 26 now jus got 2B less then 2 mths ago, say we follow the system of riders above 21 go for 250/400cc bikes i dun think its a gd idea.

 

250-400cc from say 150 i would say its a big jump for beginners. Not everyone has the same capabilities, at our driving centers u will see more crashes...due to the ablity to control these powerful machines.

 

hence i think the current system is gd, althought its a hassel, we find ourselves spending more money and wasting more time waiting to get liecence for our dream bikes.

 

How ever i think a simple amendment to the CC limit would do the trick.

 

jus sharing my pt of view

[drean]

Hmmz... tried posting twice, but they didn't appear... *scratch head* Trying again...

 

Originally posted by mechwira+May 19 2004, 11:35 PM-->

QUOTE (mechwira @ May 19 2004, 11:35 PM)

i've had this idea in my head for a long time. how bout changing the motorcycle license system to as follows: [/b]Perhaps it won't be a bad idea to first convince us (and whoever else) how the current system fails us, or is inadequate...   Personally, I think it's pretty good the way it is. But some suggestions for changes I'd make would include:   Raising the minimum age for a motorcycle licence (to say 23 years old?) Extending the Provisional period from the current 1 to 2 years. (12 demirit points for 2 years) 0% alcohol tolerance during the 2 years of provisional. You lose your licence if you have ANYTHING >0.00% BAC. No pillion for provisional riders... maybe even (but will be very difficult) no passangers for drivers during their provisional.

[Kleivard525]

lets hope 2C will come out hahaha

 

2C - veh not exceeding 125cc

2B - veh not exceeding 250cc

2A - veh not exceeding 600cc

2 - veh exceeding 600cc

[Sckona]

Originally posted by EXC-Alan4@May 20 2004, 11:30 PM

lets hope 2C will come out hahaha

 

2C - veh not exceeding 125cc

2B - veh not exceeding 250cc

2A - veh not exceeding 600cc

2 - veh exceeding 600cc

:giddy:

 

very unfair to the people who have yet attained the license....

 

i would rather have the system changed by the cc....

 

2B - up to 200cc

2A - up to 600cc

2 - up to you lah...

 

As mentioned many times within the thread, the 400cc bikes are produced only for the sake of singapore, how many NEW models of this category other than Super 4 exists. All major brands have ceased production, GSX, Kawa even honda, for sport bikes.....

 

at least if you up the range... the choices are better.

(not to contradict myself, but i cannot imagine a speed starved, hot-blooded male(dun wish to put age in as factor), to jump from a SP, KRR and all to a G6, 636, CBR600 blah blah) think you all get the picture.......

[Tyrian]

Since the 4 wheel counterpart divides its licence by KG, why not our 2 wheels?

 

No doubt a heavier machine means a more powerful machine... Divide the class by KG would be much a better choice than in CC...

[Sckona]

Originally posted by Tyrian@May 21 2004, 12:33 PM

Since the 4 wheel counterpart divides its licence by KG, why not our 2 wheels?

 

No doubt a heavier machine means a more powerful machine... Divide the class by KG would be much a better choice than in CC...

you sure?????? :giddy:

 

class 2 superbikes are mostly below 180kg,

and big cruisers weigh in more..

 

you sure that this is a good idea???

[mechwira]

As mentioned many times within the thread, the 400cc bikes are produced only for the sake of singapore, how many NEW models of this category other than Super 4 exists. All major brands have ceased production, GSX, Kawa even honda, for sport bikes.....

 

the 400cc bikes, especially the super4, is not produced for the sake of singapore. it is produced because there is a market for it in japan despite the fact that ppl who ride the super4 are able to ride larger bikes. we import the super4 because there is a market for it here due to our licensing system. what if the market for it dies in japan? honda will cease production, singapore market be damned, and our class 2A license will be a white elephant. whether or not it will happen is irrelevent, the fact is, 400cc bikes are obsolete globally, and that makes our Class 2A license obsolete as well.

 

(not to contradict myself, but i cannot imagine a speed starved, hot-blooded male(dun wish to put age in as factor), to jump from a SP, KRR and all to a G6, 636, CBR600 blah blah) think you all get the picture.......

 

so exactly how does our current system prevent this from happening anymore than my proposal? i've got 2A now, but never ridden anything bigger than my TA150 (except the vtr250 of the school), and i plan to get Class 2 and get a long term Class 2 bike. ppl are already able to do so with the current system.

 

2B - up to 200cc

2A - up to 600cc

2 - up to you lah...

 

my opinion is 600cc to 1000cc is not a major jump, only a minor one. i feel that the biggest jump is below 400cc to 1000cc. hence i feel the need for the cap to be at 400cc and then to open class. a cap at 600cc i feel is not ideal.

[mechwira]

a lot of ppl seem to feel that the current system is adequate. i would like to attempt to explain why i disagree.

 

like i mentioned earlier, drivers are able to jump onto high performance sports cars immediately upon passing Class 3. and, i'm sure you agree, cars can do more damage (to others). i think its ridiculous. someone should convince me why the driver is more responsible/skillful than the rider, bearing in mind that one can be both a driver and a rider as well. i feel there should be a cap on Class 3 license based on performance, just like Class 2.

 

having said that, i fully agree that one should not be allowed to immediately jump onto a high performance bike like R1 or GSX-1000R, or heavy bikes like harley, immediately after passing. hence the cap in my proposal.

 

with my proposal, a person is able to pass the test, wait one year, and then immediately jump onto a high performance bike without any riding experience in that 1 year. or mebbe ride a 150cc sportsbike then jump onto a liter class spotsbike. with the current system, a person can do the the exact same thing, but in 2 years and about $600. if u so insist, then revise my proposal to increae the probation period to 2 years. then it will be exact same thing as now, but saving you money and time for lessons and tests.

 

then the only difference between my proposal and current system is circuit lessons and tests on a 600cc bike. (both my proposal and current system includes compulsory cicuit tests on 250/400cc bikes). after compulsory exposure to a 250/400cc bike on road AND circuit, is the circuit lessons/tests necessary again for a 600cc bike?

 

i welcome objective counter-arguments to my points above.

[mechwira]

Originally posted by Tyrian@May 21 2004, 12:33 PM

Since the 4 wheel counterpart divides its licence by KG, why not our 2 wheels?

 

No doubt a heavier machine means a more powerful machine... Divide the class by KG would be much a better choice than in CC...

i disagree.

 

unlike cars, the lighter bike is the more powerful machine. the new ZX-10R is only 1kg heavier than the ZX-6R. to put a cap on power for bikes, one must go by cc.

 

for 4 wheels, the distinction was made to differientiate between cars and trucks. the closest one can compare this to motorcycles is cruisers and other bikes. but there is not enough of a distinction for cruisers to warrant a license class all of their own.

[Sckona]

knowledge not enough, please pardon me.. (for the Super 4 thing)

 

 

so exactly how does our current system prevent this from happening anymore than my proposal? i've got 2A now, but never ridden anything bigger than my TA150 (except the vtr250 of the school), and i plan to get Class 2 and get a long term Class 2 bike. ppl are already able to do so with the current system.

 

Think nothing can change the system in this aspect, in certain perception, this is caused by the system itself. This point is more of individual's choice.

 

 

my opinion is 600cc to 1000cc is not a major jump, only a minor one. i feel that the biggest jump is below 400cc to 1000cc. hence i feel the need for the cap to be at 400cc and then to open class. a cap at 600cc i feel is not ideal.

 

By doing this, the bridge can be narrowed... 2B - 2A (increase of 400cc), 2A - 2 (all the way). In certain views, most people might be satisfied with owning a class 2A license, as this will allow them to have more choices of bikes.

[mechwira]

Originally posted by RaJoAna@May 20 2004, 10:48 PM

250-400cc from say 150 i would say its a big jump for beginners. Not everyone has the same capabilities, at our driving centers u will see more crashes...due to the ablity to control these powerful machines.

 

hence i think the current system is gd, althought its a hassel, we find ourselves spending more money and wasting more time waiting to get liecence for our dream bikes.

 

our western counterparts are capable of doing so, why not us? what makes us less capable? our physical size?

 

better to crash in the school than to crash outside. learn how to control the 250/400cc bike and u will be a better rider.

 

and i proposed a change precisely because its a hassle. and any proposal to reduce hassle should not reduce safety from the current system. mine might not increase safety, but i do not believe it will reduce safety either.

[supernov]

i think the local authority should do something about the bike license classification.

i'm now with 2a for more than 7 years. have been stalling on my class 2 lessons, only left with evaluation, for quite a while since i really hate to go thru the evaluation by the centres and after that the test. i think if they still want us to go thru the familiarisation of handling bigger bikes is fine but why the test. taking test for class 2 is absurd.