Product : Engine Oil Discussion

[naim]

intersting. this is the 2nd time such issue is reported which i have never heard of in other bike forums. both invovle in swithing from 40wt HDEO to 50wt bike specific oil. may i know where is the temperature located at?

 

i fixed the sensor into the drain plug of my phantom. im oso a fan of the cheapness of HDEO n qualities it has, but the numbers arent good things to see... unless i can find a 50wt HDEO to try n see any temperature differences, i might stick to a 50 wt synthetic MC oil.. maybe it cud be that mine is an air-cooled single.. n we all knw phantoms' ability to burn off EO..

[Isopropyl]

i fixed the sensor into the drain plug of my phantom. im oso a fan of the cheapness of HDEO n qualities it has, but the numbers arent good things to see... unless i can find a 50wt HDEO to try n see any temperature differences, i might stick to a 50 wt synthetic MC oil.. maybe it cud be that mine is an air-cooled single.. n we all knw phantoms' ability to burn off EO..

 

quite similar to fz35s as both of use measure the temperature directly at the oil. i not too sure why the different. i got a feeling it is more to the viscosity as you suspected. or you can simply use another MC oil of 40 wt as a guage. as for whether is it better or worst it hard to tell.

 

anyway, gald you are more comfortable with your new oil:thumb:

[trex101]

You could use Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10w40 and compare with 15w40 HDEO, see if there's any temp diff.

 

From what i know, the differences between petrol & diesel engine oil are the high amount of detergent & TBN in HDEO, this properties are specially design to combat high soot and combustion by-products produced by the diesel engine. Side effect of using HDEO on petrol engine are the high exhaust valve temperature, cylinder low compression due to detergent wash out and excessive wear around the piston ring area.

 

IMO, HDEO with high TBN are not ideal for your 4-stroke bike engine. Choose a dedicated bike oil or a low TBN diesel oil would be a better bet i feel.

[trex101]

Oh, Delo 400 15w40 is a very good diesel HDEO, any idea what's the TBN of this oil?

[Isopropyl]

You could use Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10w40 and compare with 15w40 HDEO, see if there's any temp diff.

 

From what i know, the differences between petrol & diesel engine oil are the high amount of detergent & TBN in HDEO, this properties are specially design to combat high soot and combustion by-products produced by the diesel engine. Side effect of using HDEO on petrol engine are the high exhaust valve temperature, cylinder low compression due to detergent wash out and excessive wear around the piston ring area.

 

IMO, HDEO with high TBN are not ideal for your 4-stroke bike engine. Choose a dedicated bike oil or a low TBN diesel oil would be a better bet i feel.

 

wat you mention will only be true if the engine is already sludge up. if a engine is in good condition, that will not be valid isn't it?

 

check up Amsoil motorcycle oil white paper @ page 18. top bike oil have TBN equal or even higher then HDEO. so how can what you suggest is true?

 

i have read so many UOAs and the fact is HDEO give equal or better wear number then expensive boutique oil is hard to ignore to a honest man:cheeky:

[Isopropyl]

Oh, Delo 400 15w40 is a very good diesel HDEO, any idea what's the TBN of this oil?

 

yeah. i a great fan of delo!!! one of the best dino oil money can buy!!! as they say on the bottle "rival synthetic"!!! hahaha... sorry, i just can't help it:cheeky:

 

it TBN is around 12.2. i hate to sound like a broken recorder but did i mention it HTHS is 4.4cp:thumb: right up there standing shoulder to shoulder with those high-end boutique oil!!!

[trex101]

wat you mention will only be true if the engine is already sludge up. if a engine is in good condition, that will not be valid isn't it?

 

check up Amsoil motorcycle oil white paper @ page 18. top bike oil have TBN equal or even higher then HDEO. so how can what you suggest is true?

 

i have read so many UOAs and the fact is HDEO give equal or better wear number then expensive boutique oil is hard to ignore to a honest man:cheeky:

 

I would assume a 4 stroke bike and car engine are similar. This is what we are told when recommending diesel oil for car usage. Let me search around, see if I find any technical paper on this topic.

[Isopropyl]

don't be misled by the term HDEO. Engine oil basically is of similar make up.

 

it consist of base oil follow by additives. just that due to different purpose and prices, the base oil and additives package is different. some have more or better additives and other have less. in the end, it is to achieve it main purposes which is to protect engine parts, meet usage/usages requirements and extend lubrication useful life.

 

HDEO just have more of the good stuff due to it demanding/complex operation enviroment. riding on the scale of econnomy, we get a good oil much cheaper.

 

chemically, HDEO is the same as any engine oil. only different is it much cheaper paying for photo of 18 wheeler then a motorcycle infront of your oil bottle:cheers:

[trex101]

don't be misled by the term HDEO. Engine oil basically is of similar make up.

 

it consist of base oil follow by additives. just that due to different purpose and prices, the base oil and additives package is different. some have more or better additives and other have less. in the end, it is to achieve it main purposes which is to protect engine parts, meet usage/usages requirements and extend lubrication useful life.

 

HDEO just have more of the good stuff due to it demanding/complex operation enviroment. riding on the scale of econnomy, we get a good oil much cheaper.

 

chemically, HDEO is the same as any engine oil. only different is it much cheaper paying for photo of 18 wheeler then a motorcycle infront of your oil bottle:cheers:

 

I believe every additive package developed are designed for certain purposes. The question is, are HDEO even though not designed for bike usage suitable or ideal for 4 stroke bike usage?

 

let me go dig up, see if I can find some articles on this issue when I get back home.

 

forgive me because I'm not familiar with 4 stroke bike oil. me learning too from all the old bird here

Edited November 17, 2011 by trex101

[black.rx]

Hi Bros, recently my friends and I check out a new brand Torco, but seems limited shops are selling. Feedback from the class 2B forums, their 2T GP7 show really positive feedback which can understand that 2T is the immediate cause and effect result if being tested, wonder how good is the 4T Lub? Fr the recent 2 wheelers mag, bel rays which I love also came out new V-twins engine products similar to Torco's V-series which has been proved in Harley base on USA forums. If bel rays react, it seems quite worth to try Torco. Please advice if there are others good lubricants around, needs the best for my mask rider weapon ride.

[Isopropyl]

I believe every additive package developed are designed for certain purposes. The question is, are HDEO even though not designed for bike usage suitable or ideal for 4 stroke bike usage?

 

let me go dig up, see if I can find some articles on this issue when I get back home.

 

forgive me because I'm not familiar with 4 stroke bike oil. me learning too from all the old bird here

 

HDEO is certainly suitable for 4 stroke gasoline engine. for example Delo 400 is SL rated, Delo 400 LE is SM rated, Delvac MX is SL rated, Delvac 1300 super is SM rated etc etc. alot of HDEO is suitable for both diesel and gasoline engine which motorcycle oil carry the same rating commonly from SG to SL. there is no reason why it is not suitable for 4 stroke gasoline engine.

 

have fun researching. cheers:thumb:

[Isopropyl]

I believe every additive package developed are designed for certain purposes. The question is, are HDEO even though not designed for bike usage suitable or ideal for 4 stroke bike usage?

 

let me go dig up, see if I can find some articles on this issue when I get back home.

 

forgive me because I'm not familiar with 4 stroke bike oil. me learning too from all the old bird here

 

HDEO is certainly suitable for 4 stroke gasoline engine. for example Delo 400 is SL rated, Delo 400 LE is SM rated, Delvac MX is SL rated, Delvac 1300 super is SM rated etc etc. alot of HDEO is suitable for both diesel and gasoline engine which motorcycle oil carry the same rating commonly from SG to SL. there is no reason why it is not suitable for 4 stroke gasoline engine.

 

have fun researching. cheers:thumb:

[trex101]

Yes, i'm curious if it's suitable too because many of my customers bought CI-4+ or CJ-4 spec fully syn diesel engine oil like RP 10w40 and Schaeffer 9k 5w40 for their bike. Was told there's no clutch slippage and service just like 4T.

 

Anyway, i did some read up, only 1 article come close to what we after but as stated in the last paragraph, as long it has API "S" standard, it should be fine.

 

See link below:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28576/comparing-gasoline-diesel-engine-oils-

Edited November 17, 2011 by trex101

[Isopropyl]

Yes, i'm curious if it's suitable too because many of my customers bought CI-4+ or CJ-4 spec fully syn diesel engine oil like RP 10w40 and Schaeffer 9k 5w40 for their bike. Was told there's no clutch slippage and service just like 4T.

 

Anyway, i did some read up, only 1 article come close to what we after but as stated in the last paragraph, as long it has API "S" standard, it should be fine.

 

See link below:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28576/comparing-gasoline-diesel-engine-oils-

 

you are working as a mechanic? interesting!!! haha... Schaeffer!!! i love those oil!!!

 

the thing about clutch slipping with non-motorcycle oil is kind of a thing of the past. one of the main friction modifier in modern engine oil is molybdenum. in the past insoluble MoS2 is been used. it appear as a dark powder in engine oil and this is the bad guys. most modern oil is using soluble moly like MoTDC, MoDTC etc. below a certain amount, it is safe to be use in most wet clutch applications as such moly bond strongly mostly with metallic parts while sparing the clutch frictioner material. some claim that when a motorcycle engine is running excessively hot, the moly tend to embed even in non-metallic material but thankfully we are not likely to run an engine to those temperature level that will cause such problem. schaeffer engine oil have about 300ppm of moly, Motul 300V have more then 200ppm and redline motorcycle oil have a whopping 500ppm yet thousands of miles have been logged on those oil without problem.

 

just take note of energy-conserving oil which usually come in 30wt or below for wet-clutch will do.

 

oh...you do have lobang for schaeffer stuff do you:cheeky:

[trex101]

We do carry quite a few range of motorcycle products like Redline 4T, Motul 300v 4T, Schaeffer 5w40, 5w50, 20w50, Mobil Racing 4T and RP 10w40, RP maxcycle price are crazy, that why most customers take their CI-4 diesel 10w40 instead.

 

Terence from MXTRANDINGS

[Isopropyl]

We do carry quite a few range of motorcycle products like Redline 4T, Motul 300v 4T, Schaeffer 5w40, 5w50, 20w50, Mobil Racing 4T and RP 10w40, RP maxcycle price are crazy, that why most customers take their CI-4 diesel 10w40 instead.

 

Terence from MXTRANDINGS

 

oh!!! 有眼不识泰山

 

Mr Terence from Mxtradings!!! haha... gald to have you here:thumb:

[trex101]

oh!!! 有眼不识泰山

 

Mr Terence from Mxtradings!!! haha... gald to have you here:thumb:

 

Thank you. Seriously, I'm not familiar with the working and characteristic of motorcycle 4T engine. I'm reading up and trying to steal some knowledge from more experience and knowledgeable rider like you here

[trex101]

Disregards the brand and marketing talk, personally i don't think Synthetic has better heat transfer rate compare to mineral of the same viscosity. If that is the case, it could be the type of additives used that actually affect the engine oil temperature, i don't know.

 

Someone have to try a Synthetic diesel oil and record the oil temperature compare to mineral diesel, Synthetic 4T and mineral 4T.

 

See Link:

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

@trex101 - thanks for contributing to this thread :3

 

I'm curious about one thing - different motorcycle oils seem to have different clutch performance. Some will appear to slip more than others.

 

I bought some 10W40 Pennzoil Titanium 4T after seeing American road racers use it successfully on their machines, and it vastly improved high rev performance. Someone test rode my Phantom for about 1km on a closed road and managed to hit 140kph (we were wtf).

 

Later on I didn't like Pennzoil that much because at low revs or launching from the traffic lights the clutch tended to slip a bit which meant I had to launch my ah pek bike like a 2 stroker (6000rpm) to get away fast. Can't make use of my low to mid end punch easily because of the slippage. Upon consultation with a local Aprilia expert he says the 'race' 4T are optimised for racing clutches which have much stronger clutch springs than typical small commuter bikes.

 

This is one of the reasons why I love Rimula R3X 15W40 - the performance envelope seems to have instantly reversed. The clutch engages much better at low revs allowing me to accelerate much faster using the low to mid range torque band, as well as cruise at a generally lower RPM uphill. I've done up to 120kph on Rimula with no issues but since I'm more interested in torque than top speed (this is a transport bike), never bothered pushing the limits.

 

However, HDEO matches the Phantom's character because if you tune the engine to run rich (and modify the intake/exhaust to prevent backfiring), then your getaway tactic is to throw the clutch as LOW a RPM as possible and make use of the torque to accelerate away from trouble. 4 stroke + heavy piston and flywheel relies on torque, after all, hence my unique tuning regime which is different from anyone else.

 

It's actually rather fun when your friends complain they need to open VTEC to keep up (especially uphill).

 

For the normal range of 4T motorcycle oils like Motul and Castrol (and even oddballs such as Chex 9k), the clutch friction is more or less in between these two extremes of Pennzoil Titanium and Rimula.

 

For @naim's issue of oil consumption I seem to be doing okay in this department since my Phantom is (lightly) modified to run at a lower RPM. It can be modified even further in future to take advantage of the higher clutch efficiency and torque when running on HDEO, by doing some metalwork on the front sprocket housing. The problem with the Phantom is its excessive cruise RPMs above 90kph (90kph GPS, 110kph indicated). There is little torque at that high RPM due to the dated 2 valve design, but you're forced to keep revving anyway to go faster because you have no more gears or gearing advantage.

 

With the punchy low to mid range torque a highway optimised gearing setup would enable faster cruise at lower revs thereby reducing oil temperatures. And lower revs is where HDEO shines at.

 

Once I got the temperature issues sorted out by carburetor adjustment and torque band optimisation, Rimula has been my EO of choice for almost 5 months now. I went back to normal motorcycle oil once.... and promptly went back to HDEO after a couple of weeks.

 

^ I don't have an oil engineering degree but this is more or less the drivers' perspective

Edited November 18, 2011 by Pandora's Kitten :3

[trex101]

This is very interesting Pandora's Kitten, HDEO has more clutch bite compare to certain 4T. Just like we recommend mixing Type F ATF to auto transmission to lessen slip giving it a firmer shift.

 

OT: My supplier just told me that Honda ATF Z1(for Honda automotive like Civic and Accord) has been superseded with Honda DW-1(fully syn version with less friction modifier thus giving firmer shift), improve both FC and driving characteristic i was told.

[trex101]

Anyway, Pandora's Kitten do you have a oil temperature gauge on your bike? if yes, any differences in temperature compare to normal 4T oil?

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

I judge the engine temperature by observing its running characteristics under and off-load, since this is a knock-limited engine I will know if an overheat condition exists very easily.

 

When I first got this bike the shop did a poor job of tuning it which meant it ran noisily, consumed oil and accelerated slower than a lorry. Not wanting to listen to the usual advise of "Chopper like that one!!!" I busted the usual myths one by one - starting from oil consumption. Bikes do not just eat oil - there are reasons for oil consumption. Find the reasons, solve the problem, and enjoy the results, its simple

 

The first experiment was lowering the oil temperature by making use of the advertised ability of synthetic oil to rapidly dissipate heat (compared to a mineral oil), this worked, and so long as I kept engine temperature within 'operating parameters' there was zero oil consumption.

 

Second, carburetor tuning - in a certain manner that optimises the engine for running conditions, not idling. Shop tunes work great until you spend more than 20 minutes on the highway, then they start to lose power. Mine doesn't. I want the bike to get up to operating temp ASAP then stay at the point of optimal balance. Different tuning is required for 4T and HDEO because of the way the clutch grabs.

 

These days I'm less concerned about oil consumption. My intention for learning basic DIY tuning is to max out this engine's free-revving potential because getting a 2B bike to keep up with (read, out-accelerate) modern highway traffic requires race tuning, like it or not And it so happens HDEO allows me to realise one of my secondary objectives of lowering cruise RPM and increasing low end effective torque without excessive and questionable modification to the vehicle.

 

 

I don't invest in any instrumentation for this bike so my engine temp gauge are behaviour under throttle and by hand. All I need to know on the road after all is if my bike and the other Phantoms in convoy are running lean, rich or just right. And I can adjust engine tuning and give recommendations to riders just like that. I don't recommend other riders to try HDEO on their rides, until they can manage not just throttle, steering and brake... but engine temperature as well. While a pilot's license shouldn't be required for monitoring one's engine condition, knowledge of how aircraft engines (and their inflight controls) work is definitely crucial to knowing what's best for your vehicle in its intended mode of operation.

 

 

 

Oops, realised the above oversized post may sound like bullshit to most so summary:

 

First switched to HDEO - without changing carb settings and riding normally : HDEO significantly higher temperature as discovered by @naim

 

But it's possible to tune the carb and make use of the superior low end response to ride at lower RPMs (like a diesel? lol) so you don't overheat the engine.

 

I would use Pennzoil Titanium for long distance sprints at stupidly destructive RPMs, it's what Pennzoil appears to be designed for.

 

For any other sort of riding like cruising, playing backroads at Lim Chu Kang, load hauling, chionging to work - Rimula it is. I don't need top speed, but the ability to drop the clutch lever and accelerate off from low RPMs - it's really fun. On the highways I cruise at 100-110 with the revs within tolerable levels (for HDEO) since I'm already using the 39 sprocket for purposes of lowering the cruise RPM.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Pandora's Kitten :3

[trex101]

So in a nut shell, can i say HDEO for low-mid rev power while dedicated 4T for high rev power?

[naim]

just a correction, i did not hv any oil consumption bro! i'd say the HDEO is pretty good. maybe even despite the increase in temp, who knows the HDEO is up to it? w/o UOA, its quite hard to determine.. n btw im oso running on a 14T front sprocket w/ the modified sprocket cover!

[trex101]

We have good feedback from customers using synthetic HDEO but i suppose a dedicated 4T would be a safer recommendation. The higher oil temperature problem could be an issue in the long run, need to investigate further into it, see if it there's any adverse side effect or not.