Grounding wire for big bike.

[FastForward]

I wonder if anyone had tried grounding on their bike ? Wat effect is there ?

[sportster77]

Hi,

 

grounding will maximise the bike's electrical components e.g: lights (brighter), starter (easy starup), plugs (better combustation) etc.

[299]

beta fuel consumption.

[Strong Eagle]

So much smoke. Your bike frame is already grounded with a big fat cable that runs to the negative terminal of your battery. Most of your accessories are frame grounded. So long as you connections are all clean, electricity really doesn't care which way it gets to the frame. Unnecessary wires can cause false grounds which can affect electronics and introduce noise in audio systems.

[MrLau]

Originally posted by Strong Eagle@Mar 11 2006, 09:06 PM

So much smoke. Your bike frame is already grounded with a big fat cable that runs to the negative terminal of your battery. Most of your accessories are frame grounded. So long as you connections are all clean, electricity really doesn't care which way it gets to the frame. Unnecessary wires can cause false grounds which can affect electronics and introduce noise in audio systems.

I think that way too... before I install the grounding cable.

 

It works for my friend's XX, so I would just invest abit to test out.

 

After install the cable, it works, can feel the engine is smoother, I still try to find an explaination for myself.

 

:help:

[Strong Eagle]

Originally posted by MrLau@Mar 12 2006, 12:54 AM

I think that way too... before I install the grounding cable.

 

It works for my friend's XX, so I would just invest abit to test out.

 

After install the cable, it works, can feel the engine is smoother, I still try to find an explaination for myself.

 

:help:

How hard is it remove/replace the grounding cable? I really would like to see this with my own eyes and could offer at least a cold beer for a demonstration.

[ET]

Originally posted by ProjectD@Mar 11 2006, 12:18 AM

beta fuel consumption.

gt beta mer? mind still like that ler...

[ATwin]

i got my vara 1k grounded with 6 pts. headlight brighter, fuel consumption improve n smoother...

[ET]

6 pts to where, cause i did 3 pts to my retificer, engine and also my chassi

[Strong Eagle]

OK... so some folks say "grounding" does wonders... just like the 25 percent better mileage using Slick 50.

 

So, I have one question. Please explain the laws of electricity that are being invoked here to create such wonderful things. See, I only know about "old electricity". It travels at 300,000 km/sec. This means that for any circuit distances on a bike, the travel time is virtually instantaneous. We are talking picoseconds here, boys and girls.

 

Perhaps you are challenging the frame ground? Extra wires better than the frame? My "old electricity" education shows me that copper is better than steel... but the difference is miniscule given the distances covered.

 

So... if this stuff works, how does it work? Your explanation can be simple or complex... calculus even. Just tell me what changes and how to create the improvement. Better yet, show me results in a controlled test environment. My sense is that everyone's "butt dyno" just knows that things are better.

 

And, I close with one question. If adding a few grounding wires really does increase mileage, then why don't the manufacturers add $2.00 worth of wire? Strange. They have all these engineers building bikes and they are too stupid to add such obvious things? I think not. But prove me wrong.

 

Cheers.

[MrLau]

Originally posted by Strong Eagle@Apr 11 2006, 10:17 PM

OK... But prove me wrong.

 

Cheers.

From what I learn in my old school physic, like you, I dont believe the grounding wires can do anything....

 

As in my previous posts, yes, it works for me (reletively new 6 months 1286cc 4 strokes motorcyele).

 

I am very particular about the engine smoothness (I really invest to make the engine run smoother).

 

Most of the engine frame or engine casing are make from cast iron, steel, or aluminium alloy. All these metal parts, frame and engine are join/connect to each by direct contact.

 

All the factors make the resistant to the electron flow, when compare to a copper wire directly connected between the electrical component.

 

When a 4 stroke engine running at 5,000RPM, that require 83 ignitions per second.

 

Let assume the grounding wires provide 10ohm less resistance.

 

10ohm might NOT be a significant resistance in a 12DC circuit, but when an engine is running at 5000rpm, that mean in each ignition, the electron flow will subject to 10ohm of resistance, and this happen in 83 times per second, that is some kind of energy loss.

 

Beside that, the grounding wires provide higher differential voltage that can make the spark stronger, thus to ignite the fuel easier and faster (You should know the feeling when after change new spark plugs).

 

From what I learn, the grounding should improve in certain sense, with the following conditions :

 

1. The cable must be good enough to make the different in electrical resistance, high grade of copper and thinker in dimension play a big part here.

 

2. The wires must be connected to the correct parts of the bike.

 

Anyway, it works for me and many of us here.

[omnislash]

Yep. I dun see an increase in mileage but my engine idles better and pick up is smoother. And a few thick cables running around sort of looks good.

 

If Mr Strong Eagle thinks it doesnt do any good, den dun do it. No one is trying to talk another person into doing it and i hope u wont try and talk other pple into not doing it. To each its own.

 

U cant do proper grounding with $2. Not even if its in British Pounds, American Dollars or Canadian Dollars. Unless ur Rectifier, engine casing and battery are all next to each other...

[captain_des]

Originally posted by Strong Eagle@Mar 12 2006, 08:05 AM

How hard is it remove/replace the grounding cable? I really would like to see this with my own eyes and could offer at least a cold beer for a demonstration.

ha ha i second that!

 

only tricky thing is the thickness & quality of the wires in question..

 

cold beer anyone?

[Strong Eagle]

Here's something to think about. Big bikes have alternators... 400 watts and above. The current rectification is integral to the alternator. So, no ground there, especially since the alternator is gear driven and ground is the engine case.

 

So, what's next? Maybe the ECU. It, too, is frame grounded. Moreover, the ECU draws very little current, and the coils that provide the real juice are integrally frame grounded.

 

So... I offer that cold beer again. Show me. I still think it is the "butt dyno" at work. But what better than to show a sceptic the difference? You get an impartial... maybe even negative... observer to correlate your "findings".

 

How about it?

[FMF James]

Originally posted by MrLau@Apr 12 2006, 01:20 AM

When a 4 stroke engine running at 5,000RPM, that require 83 ignitions per second.

When a 4-stroke engine runs at 5000rpm, it fires at about 41 times per second.

A 2-stroke engine running at 5000rpm fires at about 83 times per second.

[Rebel_Di]

grounding can DIY?? but gt bike shop do it...??

[Strong Eagle]

Originally posted by FMF James@Apr 13 2006, 02:33 AM

When a 4-stroke engine runs at 5000rpm, it fires at about 41 times per second.

A 2-stroke engine running at 5000rpm fires at about 83 times per second.

And that is for a single cylinder engine. A four cylinder engine will fire 4 * 41 or 164 times per second. Depending upon the make and age, there will be 1, 2, or 4 separate coils to fire the plugs.

 

My 6 cylinder Valk fires 246 times per second. It uses three coils, each one firing two cylinders simultaneously.

 

Just a few notes about coils. The primary side has a very low resistance... somewhere between 0.5 and 2.5 ohms. The secondary side has a very high resistance to ground... the spark plug gap. Adding a grounding wire to the primary side will not make any difference, and of course, on the secondary side, the grounding is achieved through the spark plug.

 

A typical coil takes about 3 milliseconds to become fully charged. Applying current for any longer is just a waste of energy. Now, at 5,000 RPM, you get 41 sparks per second. There are 1000 milliseconds in a second, and 1000/41 = 24 milliseconds per spark cycle, more than enough time to fully charge the coil.

[omnislash]

Originally posted by Strong Eagle@Apr 13 2006, 12:52 AM

Here's something to think about. Big bikes have alternators... 400 watts and above. The current rectification is integral to the alternator. So, no ground there, especially since the alternator is gear driven and ground is the engine case.

What do you mean by integral? From what i see from my bike, the rectifier is a seperate unit from the generator? Or maybe 1300CC is considered a small bike?

 

Instead of asking pple to prove grounding is useful, why dun someone prove that grounding is totally useless... other than theories of cuz.. everyone can quote this and that...

[Strong Eagle]

Originally posted by omnislash@Apr 13 2006, 09:53 PM

Instead of asking pple to prove grounding is useful, why dun someone prove that grounding is totally useless... other than theories of cuz.. everyone can quote this and that...

Simply because the allegation is that grounding is useful. Those who believe that grounding is useful need to base their allegations in fact and physics. I've seen none of that... only "butt dyno" anecdotes of better performance. If "grounding" is so cool why isn't it in common use all over the place? The fact is that those who believe is works have the task to proving to others how it works.

 

On the other hand, those that think grounding is so much baloney have a vast resovoir of electrical experimentation and real world application to back them up. The laws and physics of electicity say that grounding cables are garbage... those who choose to differ from this observation need to state how the "improvement" actually works.

 

It is already proven that grounding cables are useless... one or two years in an electrical engineering course would teach you about how electricity works. So, it is up to the advocates to show how grounding cables violate the laws of electricity and improve performance.

 

Here's a hint: None of the people that sell the stuff can tell you how it works... because it doesn't... just like Slick 50 and Splitfire sparkplugs.

[ANR Impex]

Strong Eagle, I agree with you that extra grounding is unnecessary in an ideal case. But if the bike has a problem, grounding works! It is a solution to a problem, why must you insist it is useless? You may not have the problem, others do. It is a tropical climate, things corrode fast for folks who depend on their 2 wheels rain or shine. Folks also park their machines in the rain or shine, few have luxury of a sheltered parking lot. It is most certainly easier to do than to prep all the electrical junctions, a cheater solution. In steel frame machines, the conductivity is inherently inferior to late model full alloy chassis, factor in corrosion at the joints, it is small wonder many bikes suffer from high resistance. The proper way is, of course, prep all contacts, both to and fro path, but who DOES that? Grounding solves half the problem, it is perfectly logical how it can benefit a large % of local bikers.

 

It does nothing for me because I cover my bike at all times, park in shelters if possible, am super anal about electrical contacts and have lots of free time to induge in the hobby of maintaining my ride. Not everyone is the same, understand that.

[Demon]

I learned about grounding modification about 6 years back in car forums. The complaint was that most cars were already ECU controlled but the grounding was insufficient because the chassis was still based on carburetor era. Because on a ECU car, there are various sensors, such as MAP, O2, located at different part of the car, which are negatively grounded, so if the grounding is superb, then it's nice clean signal back to the ECU.....sorry for all these craps. If that ever works, it's for ECU vehicles.

 

Anyway, I do believe some bikes, who have done this mod, have actually gained in performance. The reason being that, the original grounding has deteriorated. If the stock grounding is good, adding more grounding cables would not better it.

 

For those who have done his mod, did you strip the paint on the chassis when connecting the additional cables, this is critical to maximise connectivity, otherwise it's just another feel good modification.

 

A calibrated ohmmeter & a jug of cold beer would put this theory to rest for good.

 

[omnislash]

Originally posted by Strong Eagle@Apr 14 2006, 12:57 AM

Simply because the allegation is that grounding is useful. Those who believe that grounding is useful need to base their allegations in fact and physics. I've seen none of that... only "butt dyno" anecdotes of better performance. If "grounding" is so cool why isn't it in common use all over the place? The fact is that those who believe is works have the task to proving to others how it works.

 

On the other hand, those that think grounding is so much baloney have a vast resovoir of electrical experimentation and real world application to back them up. The laws and physics of electicity say that grounding cables are garbage... those who choose to differ from this observation need to state how the "improvement" actually works.

 

It is already proven that grounding cables are useless... one or two years in an electrical engineering course would teach you about how electricity works. So, it is up to the advocates to show how grounding cables violate the laws of electricity and improve performance.

 

Here's a hint: None of the people that sell the stuff can tell you how it works... because it doesn't... just like Slick 50 and Splitfire sparkplugs.

How about the very simple fact that a gauge 8 copper wire has a much lower resistance compared to the chassis. I think thats a very basic law of electrical conductivity. Therefore, grounding provides a more direct path for stray currents to return to the battery.

 

Pls understand that I wasnt trying to prove that grounding is extremely useful but you seem extremely eager to prove grounding is useless. And how do you prove that grounding isnt common? DO you actually ask each and every biker whether they do grounding?

 

I do not persude others into doing it, how about you not trying others not to do it? Like I said, to each its own.

[ahnan79]

Why not we all come out for a cold beer and have a fun time dissecting this issue?

[Strong Eagle]

Originally posted by ahnan79@Apr 15 2006, 02:19 AM

Why not we all come out for a cold beer and have a fun time dissecting this issue?

 

And to omnislash... I fully agree that copper has lower resistance than the steel frame. It's just that the distances and current loads are both so small that the actual difference measured in ohms is also very small, not enough, in my opinion to make a difference in performance.

 

But, a cold beer and a demo is a great idea.

That sounds like a good idea... enough material to talk and drink beer all night! I'm back in town after April 24th. Let's do it. How about Dempsey's hut?

[omnislash]

Good idea indeed... But I dun drink...

 

Aniwae, ride safe after drinking...