1.2 litre Ducati versus 1 litre R1

[anggarda]

Good Day, Bikers.

 

Just a question, pardon if its been asked before, but I am curious.

 

Why do we always compare a ducati and yamaha to be in the same league, when the ducati has 200cc more?

 

+ in all the youtube videos of reviews that I see the R1 seems to perform better with a smaller engine.

 

the jap bikes need lesser capacity to get the same horsepower rating.

 

Not just against the yamaha even the honda fireblades are deemed better in those reviews by the angmohs.

 

and yet the ducati still has 200cc more? so what gives? why are they considered the same class of bikes?

 

no flaming please. this is a sincere question. the 1198 is a beauty. aesthetics. it wins hands down. I think the 1198 is a beautiful machine. beauty differs from person to person.

 

why are they the same class of bikes?

 

Salut.

[MC28]

V-Twin(Ducati) Vs Inline Four(Japan big four) Engine configuration..

 

Cant really go much into details here but i guess probably someone with the technical knowledge would beable to explain to u in better terms..

[Wayang]

its due to the rules in WSBK.. the twins r allowed a 200cc advantage over the inline4s

[anggarda]

been out of the biking scene for a while.

 

The superbike rule is new? In the days of foggy, ducati compete on equal capacity. a racing 916 had 998 cc.

 

isn't the twin better than the straight? It is supposed to be balance and smoother.

 

but it is less on power?

[MC28]

A twin i believe is less on the top end power but better in torque and of cos the pick up..Sometimes, Haga in WSBK amazes me with his launch during race start, going in 1st into turn 1 from 3rd/4th row on the grid.

[Wayang]

been out of the biking scene for a while.

 

The superbike rule is new? In the days of foggy, ducati compete on equal capacity. a racing 916 had 998 cc.

 

isn't the twin better than the straight? It is supposed to be balance and smoother.

 

but it is less on power?

 

perhaps u had ur eyes too focused on the ducati twins then.. becos during tat period the rest of the inline4s had only 750cc.. tats whr the yamaha R7, kawasaki zx7r, suzuki gsx-r 750 all came from.. oh honda had the rc45 too..

Edited April 27, 2010 by Wayang

[Stoned]

Good Day, Bikers.

 

Just a question, pardon if its been asked before, but I am curious.

 

Why do we always compare a ducati and yamaha to be in the same league, when the ducati has 200cc more?

 

+ in all the youtube videos of reviews that I see the R1 seems to perform better with a smaller engine.

 

the jap bikes need lesser capacity to get the same horsepower rating.

 

Not just against the yamaha even the honda fireblades are deemed better in those reviews by the angmohs.

 

and yet the ducati still has 200cc more? so what gives? why are they considered the same class of bikes?

 

no flaming please. this is a sincere question. the 1198 is a beauty. aesthetics. it wins hands down. I think the 1198 is a beautiful machine. beauty differs from person to person.

 

why are they the same class of bikes?

 

Salut.

 

If you observe the technical specs sheets of both bikes, in general the r1 makes about 190bhp while the 1198 makes about 170bhp. All things being equal, higher horsepower theoretically translates into greater top end(simply put). A r1, or any other superbike using a straight 4 engine, should technically trump the 1198 in the higher revs.

 

The Ducati's 90 deg V-twin makes up for this deficit in bhp with greater torque. If figures on the company's websites are to be trusted, the 1198 makes about 30Nm of torque more than the R1 and the typical japanese litre sports bike. What is also noteworthy for track fans is that the V-twin motor also reaches peak torque 3000 rpms earlier than a typical japanese superbike.

 

What this translates to in terms of track use is that you get to blast out of corners faster on the Ducati. In terms of a drag race you're likely to kill a straight-4 litre bike as well.

 

However, if you look at extended straight line performance, the straight-4 bike will likely catch up and leave the Ducati behind given some time.

[mesa]

Classic Italiano vs Jappon.

 

All comes down to style i guess. What are your preference.

Performance wise, I would say it can only be felt or tested when u go on track..

Ducati fans will be ducati fans, yamaha fans will be yamaha fans.

Unless you are a moto gp rider then can change team.. haha

 

Bottom line, both are great bikes and definitely head turners!

[Mr.Han]

haha vtwin is like two stroke

[mU]

If you observe the technical specs sheets of both bikes, in general the r1 makes about 190bhp while the 1198 makes about 170bhp. All things being equal, higher horsepower theoretically translates into greater top end(simply put). A r1, or any other superbike using a straight 4 engine, should technically trump the 1198 in the higher revs.

 

The Ducati's 90 deg V-twin makes up for this deficit in bhp with greater torque. If figures on the company's websites are to be trusted, the 1198 makes about 30Nm of torque more than the R1 and the typical japanese litre sports bike. What is also noteworthy for track fans is that the V-twin motor also reaches peak torque 3000 rpms earlier than a typical japanese superbike.

 

What this translates to in terms of track use is that you get to blast out of corners faster on the Ducati. In terms of a drag race you're likely to kill a straight-4 litre bike as well.

 

However, if you look at extended straight line performance, the straight-4 bike will likely catch up and leave the Ducati behind given some time.

 

hi, i think this may help.

[anggarda]

I love the 916/998. I've seen the youtube video before.

 

but it still doesn't say why 1.2 litre is equal to 1 litre.

 

What was the turning point?

[anggarda]

wow. I actually found the reason why after reading the wiki

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superbi...d_Championship

 

Ducati threaten to quit the superbike championship if they were not granted the extra 200cc to remain competitive against the Japanese bikes.

 

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sp.../?&R=EPI-90430

 

Sad. Lost a little bit of respect for the beautiful lady.

Edited April 27, 2010 by anggarda

[anggarda]

I found the technical reason.

 

This is necessary because, for a given capacity, an engine with more cylinders is capable of producing more power. If comparable bore to stroke ratios are employed, an engine with more cylinders will have a greater piston area and a shorter stroke. The increased piston area permits an increase in the total valve area, allowing more air and fuel to be drawn into the engine, and the shorter stroke permits higher revs at the same piston speed, allowing the engine to pump still more air and fuel with the potential to produce more power but with more fuel consumption too. In 2004 motorcycles were entered with three-, four-and five-cylinder configurations. A six-cylinder engine was proposed by Blata, but did not reach the MotoGP grids. Presently four cylinder engines appear to offer the best compromise between weight, power and fuel consumption as all competitors in the 2009 series use this solution in either 'V' or in-line configuration.

 

So in MotoGP Ducati is a V4 too right? but they were not given any extra CC advantage. Why not?

Edited April 27, 2010 by anggarda

[Wayang]

jus to add on.. after the rc45.. honda decided tat it will try to beat ducati at its own game.. n tats how the birth of the honda VTR 1000 SP1 came about..

[Stoned]

I found the technical reason.

 

This is necessary because, for a given capacity, an engine with more cylinders is capable of producing more power. If comparable bore to stroke ratios are employed, an engine with more cylinders will have a greater piston area and a shorter stroke. The increased piston area permits an increase in the total valve area, allowing more air and fuel to be drawn into the engine, and the shorter stroke permits higher revs at the same piston speed, allowing the engine to pump still more air and fuel with the potential to produce more power but with more fuel consumption too. In 2004 motorcycles were entered with three-, four-and five-cylinder configurations. A six-cylinder engine was proposed by Blata, but did not reach the MotoGP grids. Presently four cylinder engines appear to offer the best compromise between weight, power and fuel consumption as all competitors in the 2009 series use this solution in either 'V' or in-line configuration.

 

So in MotoGP Ducati is a V4 too right? but they were not given any extra CC advantage. Why not?

 

This is explained by your own research. If both are four cylinder engines, there is no need for a CC advantage to obtain comparable power to a 4 cylinder engine from a 2 cylinder engine.

[overboost]

wow. I actually found the reason why after reading the wiki

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superbi...d_Championship

 

Ducati threaten to quit the superbike championship if they were not granted the extra 200cc to remain competitive against the Japanese bikes.

 

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sp.../?&R=EPI-90430

 

Sad. Lost a little bit of respect for the beautiful lady.

 

 

its out of fairness... just imagine a w12 vs a v6 both with similar capacities... would you say they should compete in similar class?? hope that puts u into prospect.

[anggarda]

I found the technical reason.

 

This is necessary because, for a given capacity, an engine with more cylinders is capable of producing more power. If comparable bore to stroke ratios are employed, an engine with more cylinders will have a greater piston area and a shorter stroke. The increased piston area permits an increase in the total valve area, allowing more air and fuel to be drawn into the engine, and the shorter stroke permits higher revs at the same piston speed, allowing the engine to pump still more air and fuel with the potential to produce more power but with more fuel consumption too. In 2004 motorcycles were entered with three-, four-and five-cylinder configurations. A six-cylinder engine was proposed by Blata, but did not reach the MotoGP grids. Presently four cylinder engines appear to offer the best compromise between weight, power and fuel consumption as all competitors in the 2009 series use this solution in either 'V' or in-line configuration.

 

So in MotoGP Ducati is a V4 too right? but they were not given any extra CC advantage. Why not?

 

Yah, I got it now.

 

I understand now that the ducati has 2 cylinder versus the japs 4 cylinder.

 

Hence the need for the additional CC.

 

thanks everyone for your input and clarification. Learned something.

 

Cheers.

[SlowButSteady Bro]

Ducati 1.2 V twin can smoke R1 in less than 1.2km sprint after that bye bye for the ducati.The R1 mid and top are just too strong for the V twin beauty.Cant denied Ducati monstrous pick up.Unless its 1600cc V Twin versus 1000cc straight 4...

[supergas79]

Ducati 1.2 V twin can smoke R1 in less than 1.2km sprint after that bye bye for the ducati.The R1 mid and top are just too strong for the V twin beauty.Cant denied Ducati monstrous pick up.Unless its 1600cc V Twin versus 1000cc straight 4...

 

Nah, 1.6l v-twin still no chance against 1l inline 4 for such distances sprint runs.

 

It'll need a longer stroke or bigger bore to achieve 1.6l thus 800cc of space to fill for each cylinder. Needs more time to fill the space with fuel/air especially at high revs (unless you install a turbo to help speed things up hehe). Heavier parts (like valves bec of the increased volume for example) won't help with when battling with an inline 4 for the "battle" mentioned above. What you'll end up with is an engine with a very low rpm ceiling at that kind of capacity (this restriction is also for reliability). Lower rpms contribute to lower HP thus lesser power because definition of HP is "amount of work done" (torque is amount of force in a circular motion. Sorry about poor explanation.). It'll run out of breath very easily (redline). Poor response too. Heavy.... list goes on. Loads of torque im sure. But large v-twins IMO are better suited for "choppers".

 

I didn't explain very clearly and there are bound to be holes and mistakes in my explanation and I'm sorry about that. Lots more to it and I'm just an entusiast not an expert on the subject. 2 cents hehe. dun flame me ah

 

Having said that I'm personally impressed with what ducati has achieved with the "humble" 2 cylinder V engine. IMO they are just too proud of that to "give in" to the other manufacturers or rules and go "foursome", besides too many ducati fans would boycott them as many believe that is one of the characteristics that "define" what a ducati is. Purists; what to do? But engine physics don't allow the v-twin to trump similar capacity inline 4s. Knowing this and factor the above, the only way to have any chance of winning to buy going the only route; bigger engine. WSB wouldn't want to lose any bikes on the grid, especially one of the lao qiaos, so.......

 

Side note, since the topic is about fairness, 1600cc v-twin (turbo or not) versus 1000cc inline 4 doesn't seem to be "fair" anyway. haha

[zyrofillica]

then ducati should move away from the vtwins to the v6 configuration. V6 pwns I4!

[ghost04]

my only main understanding...

v-twins corner win, inline-4 straights win...

v-twins more torque than inline-4...

just look at how fast they exit corners...

they maxed out at 9k rpm?? inline-4 between 13-15k rpm..

[thenation]

haha vtwin is like two stroke

 

This is the single stupidest comment in this thread.

 

 

To address TS's queries, inline 4 technology has progressed much more than Ducati's V-twin. Ducati forced the extra 200cc rule because they simply couldn't keep up with the litre bikes in the championship without it. It may seem unfair, but Ducati is also giving up two cylinders to the competition.

 

In any case, don't let WSBK decide what you like because the bikes being raced there are a completely different breed from what is available to us, and don't let pure numbers blind you because no one ever rode a spec sheet.

[GuiNNeSS]

Those who put down V-twin sportbikes, usually have never ridden one.

 

Performance numbers aside, V-twin sportbikes are always nicer and more involving to ride. And you cannot deny a rumbling Ducati/Aprilia/TL-1000/KTM RC8 sounds better than an Inline4, even at idle.

[Stoned]

Those who put down V-twin sportbikes, usually have never ridden one.

 

Performance numbers aside, V-twin sportbikes are always nicer and more involving to ride. And you cannot deny a rumbling Ducati/Aprilia/TL-1000/KTM RC8 sounds better than an Inline4, even at idle.

 

There should be a 'like' function for SBF.

 

Let's face it, there's no autobahn here. And track sessions are not weekly things for most people. So the idling sound and character of a bike are probably the most important considerations to purchases of large cycles.

[SlowButSteady Bro]

Then its time for Ducati to produce their own WSB V4 engines