Product : Engine Oil Discussion

[deanz4]

but i cant find the motorcycle ones.. the car one is more accesable for me... its only at kaki bukit

[servoprax]

Originally posted by Loz@April 26, 2007 06:37 pm

IMO, silkolene rocks....been using on my x1 n my prev bike bike.....

 

smooth gear shifting....which means smooth riding....

u're one of the few people that i know who use top notch oils in their

 

MotoWorld, TaiHin, Uma Engineering are some of the shops carrying the Silkolene range.

[Loz]

Originally posted by servoprax@May 02, 2007 04:15 pm

u're one of the few people that i know who use top notch oils in their

 

MotoWorld, TaiHin, Uma Engineering are some of the shops carrying the Silkolene range.

well from wad my frens n i had experienced, we cant scrimp on the basic needs of the bike n asking lots from it...

 

top notch oil = better performance,longer lasting engines...

 

i shall advice ppl that making on the bikes' needs n performance your priority....after that is well,go for cosmetics....

 

then u will enjoy ur ride

 

cheers...

[servoprax]

Im glad to say that would be a good start. Regardless of the quality brand you choose, the manufacturers have a common goal which is to enrich the rider with a quality ride feel.

 

Use the correct lubricant type for your riding style. If you need any recommendations for Silkolene products, PM me.

[hachi]

Anyone like mi true believer of frequent oil change?

My F4i when I owned less than 10000km but changed oil at least 6-7 times...

[servoprax]

Taken off the GTR UK Forum

 

Oil labelling explained

What’s written on your oil bottle and what does it mean.

 

This post may seem like going back to basics but I am constantly surprised by the amount of people who do not know or understand what is written on a bottle of oil and therefore no idea of what they are buying/using.

 

To be blunt about the subject, if a bottle of oil does not contain the following basic information then DO NOT buy it look for something that does!

 

1) The purpose for which it is intended (i.e. Motor oil, Gear oil etc)

 

2) The viscosity (i.e. 10w-40, 5w-30 etc for Motor oils and 80w-90, 75w-90 etc for Gear oils)

 

3) The specifications that it meets (should contain both API and ACEA ratings)

 

4) The OEM Approvals that it carries and the codes (i.e. MB229.3, VW503.00, BMW LL01 etc)

 

Ignore the marketing blurb on the label it is in many cases meaningless and I will explain later what statements you should treat this with some scepticism

 

So, what does the above information mean and why is it important?

 

THE BASICS

 

All oils are intended for an application and in general are not interchangeable. You would not for example put an Automatic Transmission Oil or a Gear Oil in your engine! It is important to know what the oils intended purpose is.

 

VISCOSITY

 

Most oils on the shelves today are “Multigrades”, which simply means that the oil falls into 2 viscosity grades (i.e. 10w-40 etc)

 

Multigrades were first developed some 50 years ago to avoid the old routine of using a thinner oil in winter and a thicker oil in summer.

 

In a 10w-40 for example the 10w bit (W = winter, not weight or watt or anything else for that matter) simply means that the oil must have a certain maximum viscosity/flow at low temperature. The lower the “W” number the better the oils cold temperature/cold start performance.

 

The 40 in a 10w-40 simply means that the oil must fall within certain viscosity limits at 100 degC. This is a fixed limit and all oils that end in 40 must achieve these limits. Once again the lower the number the thinner the oil, a 30 oil is thinner than a 40 oil at 100 degC etc. Your handbook will specify whether a 30, 40 or 50 etc is required.

 

SPECIFICATIONS

 

Specifications are important as these indicate the performance of the oil and whether they have met or passed the latest tests or whether the formulation is effectively obsolete or out of date.

There are two specifications that you should look for on any oil bottle and these are API (American Petroleum Institute) and ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Europeens d’Automobiles) all good oils should contain both of these and an understanding of what they mean is important.

 

API

 

This is the more basic as it is split (for passenger cars) into two catagories. S = Petrol and C = Diesel, most oils carry both petrol (S) and diesel © specifications.

 

The following table shows how up to date the specifications the oil are:

 

PETROL

 

SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black sludge.

 

SH - Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and shear stability.

 

SJ - Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits

 

SL - Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine designs meeting current emissions standards

 

SM - Introduced November 2004, improved oxidation resistance, deposit protection and wear protection, also better low temperature performance over the life of the oil compared to previous categories.

 

Note:

 

All specifications prior to SL are now obsolete and although suitable for some older vehicles are more than 10 years old and do not provide the same level of performance or protection as the more up to date SL and SM specifications.

 

DIESEL

 

CD - Introduced 1955, international standard for turbo diesel engine oils for many years, uses single cylinder test engine only

 

CE - Introduced 1984, improved control of oil consumption, oil thickening, piston deposits and wear, uses additional multi cylinder test engines

 

CF4 - Introduced 1990, further improvements in control of oil consumption and piston deposits, uses low emission test engine

 

CF - Introduced 1994, modernised version of CD, reverts to single cylinder low emission test engine. Intended for certain indirect injection engines

 

CF2 - Introduced 1994, defines effective control of cylinder deposits and ring face scuffing, intended for 2 stroke diesel engines

 

CG4 - Introduced 1994, development of CF4 giving improved control of piston deposits, wear, oxidation stability and soot entrainment. Uses low sulphur diesel fuel in engine tests

 

CH4 - Introduced 1998, development of CG4, giving further improvements in control of soot related wear and piston deposits, uses more comprehensive engine test program to include low and high sulphur fuels

 

CI4 Introduced 2002, developed to meet 2004 emission standards, may be used where EGR ( exhaust gas recirculation ) systems are fitted and with fuel containing up to 0.5 % sulphur. May be used where API CD, CE, CF4, CG4 and CH4 oils are specified.

 

Note:

 

All specifications prior to CH4 are now obsolete and although suitable for some older vehicles are more than 10 years old and do not provide the same level of performance or protection as the more up to date CH4 & CI4 specifications.

 

If you want a better more up to date oil specification then look for SL, SM, CH4, CI4

 

ACEA

 

This is the European equivalent of API (US) and is more specific in what the performance of the oil actually is. A = Petrol, B = Diesel and C = Catalyst compatible or low SAPS (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulphur).

 

Unlike API the ACEA specs are split into performance/application catagories as follows:

 

A1 Fuel economy petrol

A2 Standard performance level (now obsolete)

A3 High performance and/or extended drain

A4 Reserved for future use in certain direct injection engines

A5 Combines A1 fuel economy with A3 performance

 

B1 Fuel economy diesel

B2 Standard performance level (now obsolete)

B3 High performance and/or extended drain

B4 For direct injection car diesel engines

B5 Combines B1 fuel economy with B3/B4 performance

 

C1-04 Petrol and Light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 low SAPS, two way catalyst compatible.

C2-04 Petrol and light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 mid SAPS, two way catalyst compatible.

C3-04 Petrol and light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 mid SAPS, two way catalyst compatible, Higher performance levels due to higher HTHS.

 

Note: SAPS = Sulphated Ash, Phosphorous and Sulphur.

 

Put simply, A3/B3, A5/B5 and C3 oils are the better quality, stay in grade performance oils.

 

APPROVALS

 

Many oils mention various OEM’s on the bottle, the most common in the UK being VW, MB or BMW but do not be misled into thinking that you are buying a top oil because of this.

 

Oil Companies send their oils to OEM’s for approval however some older specs are easily achieved and can be done so with the cheapest of mineral oils. Newer specifications are always more up to date and better quality/performance than the older ones.

 

Some of the older OEM specifications are listed here and depending on the performance level of your car are best ignored if you are looking for a quality high performance oil:

 

VW – 500.00, 501.00 and 505.00

 

Later specs like 503, 504, 506 and 507 are better performing more up to date oils

 

MB – 229.1

 

Later specs like 229.3 and 229.5 are better performing more up to date oils.

 

BMW – LL98

 

Later specs like LL01 and LL04 are better performing more up to date oils.

 

 

FINALLY

 

Above is the most accurate guidance I can give without going into too much depth however there is one final piece of advice regarding the labelling.

 

Certain statements are made that are meaningless and just marketing blurb, here are a few to avoid!

 

Recommended for use where……………

May be used where the following specifications apply……………

Approved by………………………..(but with no qualification)

Recommended/Approved by (some famous person, these endorsements are paid for)

Racing/Track formula (but with no supporting evidence)

 

Also be wary of statements like “synthetic blend” if you are looking for a fully synthetic oil as this will merely be a semi-synthetic.

 

Like everything in life, you get what you pay for and the cheaper the oil the cheaper the ingredients and lower the performance levels.

[servoprax]

Taken off Mazda Forum.

 

Oils, a technical explanation!

I have seen a few oil posts on here recently and thought that I would share my expertise. I have posted this before but thought that it was worth reposting in case you missed it first time around.

 

The subject of synthetic oils in the rotary engine is a much debated topic on car forums and clubs around the world but when looking at the tecnical aspects of the argument, no one has ever convinced me (or at least not until now?) that they actually cause harm to the engine or shorten its life.

 

To start with some basics, we need to remind ourselves what an engine oil is designed to do. It must:

 

Lubricate

 

Oil must lubricate engine components so that they will easily pass by one another without a significant loss of power due to friction. At start-up, this is especially true. Once running, engine oil must create a film between moving parts to make them "slippery" which increases power, performance and efficiency.

 

Protect

 

Oil must keep engine components from coming in contact with each other and provides vital protection against wear. Engine oils also protect against corrosion of engine components.

 

Clean

 

If an engine doesn’t remain clean, it will not remain efficient. Deposits within an engine reduce fuel efficiency and rob your engine of performance.

 

Cool

 

Engine oil is responsible for a large percentage of the cooling that takes place within your engine. The radiator is only responsible for cooling the upper portion of your engine. The rest of the critical engine components are cooled mainly by the motor oil within your engine.

 

Contrary to popular belief and a healthy pinch of myth, all oils are not petroleum based or derived. Oil technology has moved on like everything in life as the chemists strive to create the perfect lubricants.

 

There are two main components that all engine oils are made of and they are basestocks and additives. The basestocks normally make up between 70 and 95%. Additive chemicals are then added to enhance the positive qualities of the basestocks and to overcome any negative qualities present.

 

There are two main types of basestocks used, petroleum and synthetic. Petroleum basestocks are a purified form of crude oil and have been used as automotive lubricants since motor oils were first developed. Synthetic basestocks, on the other hand, are chemically engineered in a laboratory specifically for the purpose of lubrication. They are engineered from pure compounds that contain no contaminants which must be removed via purification. Synthetic basestocks have been around for many years but have only been used in the automotive market for the last 30 years.

 

The main types of oil basestocks commercially available in the market today apart from the traditional mineral oils are as follows:

 

Hydrocracked (also referred to as Molecularly Converted Mineral Oils)

 

These are so pure and refined, they can now be called synthetics. They are not made from true synthetic basestocks (as previously mentioned) but have so little in common with traditional petroleum basestocks, that it doesn’t make sense classify them as petroleum oils. Petroleum basestocks can be put through a super-extreme refining process called “hydrocracking”. It is completely legal for lubricants manufacturers to label these oils as "synthetic". These are extremely high performance petroleum basestocks, will not perform to the same level as true synthetic basestocks like PAO (poly alfa olefins) or Esters.

 

Hydrocracking results in a basestock which has far better thermal and oxidative stability as well as a better ability to maintain proper viscosity through a wide temperature range - when compared to Mineral oils.

 

The most common types of Synthetic basestocks.

 

Poly alpha olefins (PAO's)

 

These are the most common synthetic basestocks. Many synthetics on the market use PAO basestocks exclusively. Also known as synthesized hydrocarbons, they contain absolutely no wax, metals, sulfur or phosphorous. They have extremely low pour points and are very thermally stable. One drawback to using PAO's is that they are not as oxidatively stable as other synthetics unless properly additised.

 

Diesters

 

These synthetic basestocks offer many of the same benefits of PAO's but are more varied in structure. Their performance characteristics vary more than PAO's. When chosen carefully, diesters provide better pour points and thermal stability than PAO's and are a little more oxidatively stable. Diesters also have very good inherent solvency characteristics which means that not only do they burn cleanly, they also clean out deposits left behind by other lubricants, without the aid of detergency additives.

They are also surface-active (electrostatically attracted to metal surfaces),

 

Polyolesters

 

These synthetic basestocks are similar to diesters, but slightly more complex. They have a greater range of pour points than diesters, but some polyolester basestocks will outperform diesters. They are also surface-active.

 

Premium quality synthetics are normally a blend of more than one type of PAO and/or PAO basestocks with diester and/or polyolester in order to create a basestock which combines all of the benefits of these basestocks.

 

The Synthetic Myth.

 

There are many oils on the shelves today labeled as “synthetic” but in the true sense of the word they are not. They are the “hydrocracked” petroleum oils previously mentioned and although generally superior to mineral oils they are not of the same quality as true “made in the laboratory” synthetics.

 

So, why are these highly refined mineral oils called “synthetic”? It was all decided in a legal battle that took place in the USA about ten years ago. Sound reasons (including evidence from a Nobel Prize winning chemist) were disregarded and the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called “synthetic”.

 

Needless to say, the marketing executives could not believe their luck! They realised that this meant, and still does, that the critical buzz-word “synthetic” could be printed on a can of cheap oil provided that the contents included a few percent of “hydrocracked” mineral oil, at a cost of quite literally a few pence.

 

Synthetics and the rotary engine.

 

How many times have we heard it “do not use synthetic oil in the rotary engine?”

 

Too many and there will be many more but, it’s a pretty meaningless statement unless we as rotory engined car owners and the person making the statement fully understand the meaning of the word “synthetic”.

 

As I have stated before, most oils on the shelves today do not contain true synthetics, they are merely highly refined mineral oils and as such are just a high performance mineral oil.

 

I have done much research into this topic since I picked up my shiny Velocity Red RX8 nearly 12 months ago and I have to say with no definitive conclusion. I know of RX7 and RX8 Owners that use fully synthetic oils in their rotories with no evidence of any ill effects to the engine, it’s not surprising as they are without doubt superior lubricants.

 

However, when I questioned Mazda UK about the use of Fully Synthetic oils we received the following reply.

 

“The Mazda RX-7 engine contained rubber parts that would be affected by synthetic oil so dealers were told not to use it in rotary engines. We asked on Mazda RX-8 training if this was still the case for the new Renesis engine and were told that although the rubber parts in the engine were all now believed to be synthetic oil compatible Mazda Corporation had not done any testing or evaluation with synthetic oil.

 

Mazda Corporation has developed and tested this engine using mineral oil and has recommended its continued use in service, I would consider that straying from a proven and tested specification is not some thing that we could endorse. Although the oil may be a superior lubricant, there is no requirement for it in an engine with only three major moving parts none of which are reciprocating and all of which are in near perfect balance.”

 

In itself this answer is not really conclusive, the seal compatability problem seems to have been solved but it’s not been tested. So I decided to take a trip all the way to Stoke (Belper to be precise) to talk with the Silkolene technical boffins and the chief chemist about Mazda's reply and synthetic compatability.

 

Their first comment on Mazda's statement was that depending on what synthetic they are referring to i.e. PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin), Polyolester or Diesester the seals would be affected in different ways.

 

PAO's always shrink seals

Esters always swell seals

 

They (Silkolene) tested a mixture of PAO/Ester in the early Norton Rotary Bikes as they were asked to formulate a "proper" synthetic for Norton and they found that the correct mix (not 50/50 I might add) had the affect of no swell or shrinkage of seals. Oils have come a long way since.

 

They told me that "proper" synthetics PAO/Ester blend types are of great benefit to the Rotary engine and the "shear stability" of these oils added to the "polar" benefits of ester make these oils perfect for the engine or at least this was their opinion.

 

Their reply to Mazdas comments on the engine itself were as follows:

 

This does not make sense, Esters have been used in the aviation industry for more then 50 years..................Think about it!!

 

Anyway, my conclusion is that "true" synthetics are better and that's a fact but they cost more and are not so readily available so in a car that uses around 1 litre per thousand miles was this a commercial decision as the oil's not in the engine long enough to "shear" or "degrade" to any great extent?

 

So the next question is what do I use?

 

I follow the handbook and use a "hydrocracked" (petroleum based highly refined mineral oil) which is in my opinion and from a chemists point of view labelled as a "synthetic" but it's not as the basestock is petroluem. It is a 5w-30, a 10w-30 can also be used for different ambient temperatures.

 

As for the RX7's well it's personal choice really and as I've said before, synthetics are better but most are not true synthetics so as long as you stay clear of 100% Poly Alpha Olefin based oils (Like Mobil 1 as an example) which would give the highest levels of seal shrinkage you will be fine. An oil with a good percentage of ester basestocks will counteract this shrinkage.

 

There is no doubt that "hydrocracked" oils that are either Fully or semi-synthetic are fine to use because they are merely highly refined mineral oils will give you better protection than a plain old mineral oil. Silkolene actually recommend the use of their 10w-40 semi synthetic products in the RX7.

 

So, there it is, complicated until you know what "synthetic" really means. Hopefully this sheds some light and some food for thought on this slippery topic.

 

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask.

 

Cheers

Simon

[RedGixxer688]

Nice info bro Wan!!!

[sikonesis]

half of it is junk (ie: irrelevant) IMHO, because of the context. engine oil in a car with a

rotary engine will have different requirements to meet compared to engine oil in a

motorcycle.

 

maybe it's best to read selectively the latter portion of the article. the earlier part is still

good info though.

[Loz]

juz had my oil change at unique motorsports...silkolene way to go

[Unique_Motorsports]

Originally posted by Loz@May 17, 2007 06:51 am

juz had my oil change at unique motorsports...silkolene way to go

Yes, we carry a range of Fuchs Silkolene products.

 

Fuchs Silkolene Pro 4 Plus 10W-50 ester based fully synthetic engine oil - $25/bottle

http://www.uniquemotorsports.com.sg/pic/pro4pluspic.gif

 

Fuchs Silkolene Pro 4 15W-50 ester based fully synthetic engine oil - $22/bottle

http://www.uniquemotorsports.com.sg/pic/pro4.gif

 

Fuchs Silkolene Comp 4 15W-50 ester based engine oil - $17/bottle

http://www.uniquemotorsports.com.sg/pic/comp4.gif

 

Fuchs Silkolene COMP 4T racing 15W-50 engine oil - $12/bottle

http://www.uniquemotorsports.com.sg/pic/comp4tracing.gif

 

Fuchs Silkolene chainlube - $16/can

Fuchs Silkolene Pro Boost - $8/bottle

http://www.uniquemotorsports.com.sg/pic/alloil.gif

[uberstore]

Originally posted by uberstore@April 26, 2007 01:33 am

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b349/Uberstore/amsoillogo_iso1.gif

 

Get your Amsoil Synthetic Oil at

 

Tachyon Motor Pte Ltd

 

Blk 3006 Ubi Road 1

#01-350

 

Tel : 8113 9137

Email : [email protected]

 

 

http://www.cruxoil.com/sitebuilder/images/10W40-149x300.jpg http://www.cruxoil.com/sitebuilder/images/20W50-149x300.jpg

 

Specifications

 

 

 

 

 

Specifications

Check out the latest Amsoil Promotion at Tachyon Motor Pte Ltd

 

Please call 8113 9137 for Ah Tak for more details.

[darren_soh86]

OWS engine oil unique is carrying.. are they car oils? from what i saw from the OWS Germany webbie.. seems like they are for cars.. not bike specific..

 

they oso like dun haf the JASO ratings one.. anyone wana comment on this?

[Unique_Motorsports]

Originally posted by darren_soh86@May 22, 2007 11:01 am

OWS engine oil unique is carrying.. are they car oils? from what i saw from the OWS Germany webbie.. seems like they are for cars.. not bike specific..

 

they oso like dun haf the JASO ratings one.. anyone wana comment on this?

Hi, your concern had been raised to the President of OWS a few months back. OWS will be unveiling a complete range of 4T engine oils for motorbikes in the coming quarter. (As mentioned on OWS website)

[hit.man]

Hi, does that mean that for the Super 4 package (4pc OWS Spark Plug + 10W40 OWS Engine Oil), the OWS Engine Oil used is not designed for bike? I'm interested in that package but I don't wanna put car's EO into my bike....

 

 

Hi, your concern had been raised to the President of OWS a few months back. OWS will be unveiling a complete range of 4T engine oils for motorbikes in the coming quarter. (As mentioned on OWS website)

[Unique_Motorsports]

Hi, does that mean that for the Super 4 package (4pc OWS Spark Plug + 10W40 OWS Engine Oil), the OWS Engine Oil used is not designed for bike? I'm interested in that package but I don't wanna put car's EO into my bike....

OWS Fully Synthetic Engine oil 10W-40 are for use on motorcycles.

Feedback had been very good. You can check with your friends who are using the engine oil currently.

[Strong Eagle]

Gracious! I'd hate to start another debate over engine oils, particularly motorcycle oil versus auto oil. Still, various studies show that both are all over the map when it comes to additives, durability, etc.

 

Fact is, any GOOD oil will be just fine in your bike. Choose a good synthetic or a good dino oil and change slightly more often. It really won't matter.

 

I run synthetic because of extended oil change intervals and better tolerance to heat and long chain molecule breakdown.

 

I've run Mobil 15W-50 for years in my Valk... as have others that have in excess of 250,000 MILES on their engines... and still going strong. My Valk now has 79,000 MILES on it and runs like a top. I've gone to motorcycle oil here simply because that is what the shops carry and the price differential is not so great as in the US.

[hit.man]

Noted. Thank you.

 

OWS Fully Synthetic Engine oil 10W-40 are for use on motorcycles.

Feedback had been very good. You can check with your friends who are using the engine oil currently.

[ANR Impex]

Gracious! I'd hate to start another debate over engine oils, particularly motorcycle oil versus auto oil. Still, various studies show that both are all over the map when it comes to additives, durability, etc.

 

Fact is, any GOOD oil will be just fine in your bike. Choose a good synthetic or a good dino oil and change slightly more often. It really won't matter.

 

I run synthetic because of extended oil change intervals and better tolerance to heat and long chain molecule breakdown.

 

I've run Mobil 15W-50 for years in my Valk... as have others that have in excess of 250,000 MILES on their engines... and still going strong. My Valk now has 79,000 MILES on it and runs like a top. I've gone to motorcycle oil here simply because that is what the shops carry and the price differential is not so great as in the US.

 

It took decades to convince motorists in general that synthetics are the real deal and not just some marketing spin to make more money from them. I'm glad you're a believer.

 

Now I hope the time taken to persuade riders (like yourself) that cycle oils are developing in a different technological direction than general passenger cars oils won't be half as long.

 

It doesn't take much to understand if you spend 5 mins to think about it. Not many low rpm 6 cylinders large displacement bikes out there, it is practically a car engine shoehorned into a 2 wheel frame.

 

Passenger cars are becoming increasingly detuned to meet environmental regulations, the oils will go that direction. It saves costs, amounting to millions in added profit considering the volume sold.

 

Modern bikes on the other hand, are redefining the amount of hp and rpm that can be squeezed out from 4 cylinders every 2 years.

 

And you're right, it is pointless to gamble on car oils here in Singapore, there are next to no cost savings.

[alvismah]

kr uses what engine oil better ?

[ANR Impex]

kr uses what engine oil better ?

 

2 strokers use gear oil. Cab try the Maxima MTL-Racing

[GuiNNeSS]

anywhere having EO promotion ?

[ANR Impex]

Might want to check out AHM Performance, $130 for Maxima Extra with oil filter, Cool Aide performance coolant flush and Denso plug change.

[GAZZ]

Hi anyone know where i can buy BEL-RAY engine oil thks

[DenverDino]

Where to find a shop that sells Royal Purple E.O? Will they assist to change the oil as well?