Product : Engine Oil Discussion

[Nighthawk_250]

Originally posted by ANR Impex@February 16, 2007 11:49 am

Ah Koon only carry the thicker grades, Extra 15W50 or Synblend 20W50. Since the RP thins fast, I am referring to the thinner grades. Ultra 5W50 for example. Maybe you try that next time, but you won't find it at Ah Koon at the moment, but it can be arranged.

 

Gear shifting performance for Maxima is second to none once you find the right viscosity. In your case, you're not really varying the viscosity much in the correct direction, which is thinner. Besides, all cycle oils have a minimum level of friction for the wet clutch, race oils like Maxima will be right at limits. They cannot go below JASO MA specs for friction, if not there will be clutch slip issues.

 

Which RP are you using? I can have a better estimate. I have even blended the oil to a specific operating viscosity for users in the past, they understood my point once they felt the effect.

Does Mustafa have the 5w50? I will give it a try after Im done with amsiol.

 

I used the royal purple Maxcycle and also the one meant for car lol

 

Maybe I should mix royal purple with maxima to get both thing I want...just kidding

[ANR Impex]

You need to know the viscosity, ie, 10W40, 20W50. I give you try Extra 10W40 and Extra 15W50 the effect also day and night. You get my point?

 

Ultra is available at Mustafa but stocks of EO is inconsistent as they do not stock quantity. The nearest place to Ah Koon that stocks Ultra 5W50 is Racewerks at Alexandra, the row behind the old HKL workshop.

[Nighthawk_250]

Yo!...like to add to the discussion...

 

 

me no expert in oil stuffs, but im always of the impression that smoothness in gear change and in my case, getting into neutral gear along with other gearing is almost immediately felt when I change to royal purple.

 

Im still "in the blurr" if "viscocity" do affect gear change and smoothness so much, as compared to possibility of them adding some stuff into their oil that gives good gear change and lubrication.

 

Its so significant for my case and on cb50 and all my other ex bikes

[Nighthawk_250]

Originally posted by ANR Impex@February 16, 2007 12:16 pm

You need to know the viscosity, ie, 10W40, 20W50. I give you try Extra 10W40 and Extra 15W50 the effect also day and night. You get my point?

 

Ultra is available at Mustafa but stocks of EO is inconsistent as they do not stock quantity. The nearest place to Ah Koon that stocks Ultra 5W50 is Racewerks at Alexandra, the row behind the old HKL workshop.

Thanks for the pointer.

 

Will try and feedback here.

 

My bike only 1.5l engine oil, can change and try until song song

[ANR Impex]

Originally posted by Nighthawk_250@February 16, 2007 12:17 pm

Yo!...like to add to the discussion...

 

 

me no expert in oil stuffs, but im always of the impression that smoothness in gear change and in my case, getting into neutral gear along with other gearing is almost immediately felt when I change to royal purple.

 

Im still "in the blurr" if "viscocity" do affect gear change and smoothness so much, as compared to possibility of them adding some stuff into their oil that gives good gear change and lubrication.

 

Its so significant for my case and on cb50 and all my other ex bikes

No problem. And i hope you see that I'm not trying to win an argument, just trying to help you better understand the needs of your bike to maximise your biking experience. Once you have this experience, it can be applied to all subsequent bikes. So far there have been many happy endusers in SBF itself after a better understanding. The bulk of local bike servicing community is still hung up on thick is better and have differing and sometimes inaccurate theories on choosing a viscosity.

 

Viscosity affects gear shift because motorcycles are wet clutch with the clutch place soaked in EO. Different operating viscosity affects the clutch plate drag. Using a very thick oil is in effect similar to not clutching in enough, friction is still tranferred through the viscous oil film. Putting the bike on main stand, start engine and engage 1st gear while remaining clutched in, you will see the rear wheel spin. The power is transferred purely from oil friction.

 

The motocycle sequential shifting system is very particular about having just the right amount of 'tensioning' to get the gears to engage smoothly. Too little and you need to play your clutch to find neutral, too much and you find the gear shifting very stiff.

[Nighthawk_250]

Originally posted by ANR Impex@February 16, 2007 12:43 pm

No problem. And i hope you see that I'm not trying to win an argument, just trying to help you better understand the needs of your bike to maximise your biking experience. Once you have this experience, it can be applied to all subsequent bikes. So far there have been many happy endusers in SBF itself after a better understanding. The bulk of local bike servicing community is still hung up on thick is better and have differing and sometimes inaccurate theories on choosing a viscosity.

 

Viscosity affects gear shift because motorcycles are wet clutch with the clutch place soaked in EO. Different operating viscosity affects the clutch plate drag. Using a very thick oil is in effect similar to not clutching in enough, friction is still tranferred through the viscous oil film. Putting the bike on main stand, start engine and engage 1st gear while remaining clutched in, you will see the rear wheel spin. The power is transferred purely from oil friction.

 

The motocycle sequential shifting system is very particular about having just the right amount of 'tensioning' to get the gears to engage smoothly. Too little and you need to play your clutch to find neutral, too much and you find the gear shifting very stiff.

No worries dude, there had never been any argument. Tot we just chatting on engine oil.

 

Actually Ive been actively sounding out to biker folks to try royal purple or "motor up"

whenever I hear people say hard to find neutral gear or cant get smooth gear change.

 

Much later there was concern and discussion about motor-up making clutch slips for bike with wet cluth...after the hooha on all the theories, I also stop recommending.

 

Think im more of a change-engine-oil-enthusiast ba. I read many posting here about people recommending e.o. just because they are using it and thats about it they say "motul is good" that all and not why it is good, which could be quite annoying.

 

I mean, even if the theory and specification is good on paper, in practice it must measure up as well.

 

Lets hope more folks go try out the 3 e.o. ive mention so far and feedback accordingly.

 

Cheers! and happy Chinese new year

[skyslayer]

motul is not bad..bt it takes a longer period to warm up your bike.

[servoprax]

quoted from Nighthawk:

Think im more of a change-engine-oil-enthusiast ba. I read many posting here about people recommending e.o. just because they are using it and thats about it icon-lol.gif they say "motul is good" that all and not why it is good, which could be quite annoying.

 

 

--> hmm this thread is beginning to steer towards maxima. where's motul and silkolene representatives i wonder. well at least silkolene has a seminar coming up which i guess is worth going. teo peng, are u going ?

[stsoh]

this is an interesting article tat i came across, share 4 all 2 read.

======================

 

The right oil will get you going

 

By Zaihan Mohd Yusof - Nov 05, 2006

The New Paper

 

IF a motorcycle engine oil is expensive, surely it must be good.

Or is it?

 

Engine oil keeps parts lubricated and prevents metal-to-metal contact.

 

It also cools the engine and keeps in suspension impurities.

 

A good oil should reduce friction and heat build-up and keep oxidation in check.

 

But rating a lubricant's performance is hard for the average biker, as lab tests are costly.

 

Luckily, there are tests performed by independent labs, but interpreting the results can be a little tricky.

 

WHAT IT IS FOR

 

Before buying the slippery stuff, ask yourself what it is for?

 

Racers demand oils that do not break down or evaporate at high temperatures.

 

Road riders prefer a durable oil that keeps engine and shifting performances consistent.

 

The demands on motorcycle oils differ from those used in cars.

 

Motorcycles tend to operate at higher engine speeds, placing extra stress on components.

 

Motorcycle oils are faced with higher load and shear forces, and are expected to offer increased wear protection.

 

Top-grade motorcycle oils have higher levels of anti-wear additives like zinc and phosphorus compared to car oils.

 

Test results of 22 oils, which appeared in Sport Rider magazine in 2003, showed that high-performance motorcycle oils like Maxima had the highest anti-wear levels.

 

The equivalent levels of the current car oils have fallen due to environmental restrictions, widening the performance gap between car and motorcycle lubrication needs.

 

Unlike cars, most motorcycles use only one oil for both engines and gearboxes.

 

Gears are highly-stressed components that depend heavily on anti-wear agents to provide protection.

 

CATEGORIES OF OILS

 

There are several categories of oils.

 

Group I to Group III oils are refined mineral oils with differing amounts of impurities.

 

Group IV and Group V, known as PAOs (polyalphaolefin) and Esters respectively, are traditionally called synthetic oils - man-made through chemical processes.

 

Synthetics in Groups IV and V offer high-oxidation stability and a high viscosity index (highlights how a lubricant's thickness changes with variations in temperature) compared to mineral oils.

 

Synthetics like Esters have a unique quality - the polar ends on Ester molecules act like magnets, sticking to metal surfaces offering added protection. Esters also offer excellent solvency and are able to remove and keep in suspension sludge and the by-products of combustion.

 

But in 1999, creative marketing people from a global petroleum company redefined the term 'synthetics' to include lower performance Group III base oils.

 

It set the precedent for the engine oil industry. Soon, many 'synthetic' oils were actually being formulated with Group III base stocks instead of PAO and Esters.

 

However, the numerous performance-oriented lubricant companies have steered away from the compromise and continue to use expensive PAO and Ester formulations.

 

Examples include Maxima, Motul and Silkolene, whose products are prominently declared as Ester-based.

 

THICKER, BETTER?

 

Knowing what '10W-40' on a multi-grade oil bottle stands for may help you understand an oil's characteristics.

 

The number reflects the lubricant's viscosity or thickness.

 

A 10W-40 oil is less viscous than, say, a 10W-50 oil.

 

The greater an oil's viscosity, the greater the loads it can withstand.

 

But thicker oil can also increase fluid friction and operating temperature - it requires more energy to move the heavier oils to other parts of the engine.

 

On the flip side, a thinner oil can result in metal-to-metal contact and increased oil consumption.

 

But viscosity alone does not determine an oil's performance.

 

LAB TESTS

 

Tests conducted on behalf of Amsoil Inc in March showed how 28 oils performed when subjected to American Society for Testing and Materials procedures.

 

Not all the oils used in the test were synthetics.

 

In one test, an oil's viscosity was measured at a high temperature under shearing forces.

 

This test is important as parts like bearings require protection at high temperatures.

 

The top four oils in the test were synthetics like Motul 300V Sport and Amsoil MCF, and synthetic/petroleum blends like Golden Spectro 4 and Maxima Maxum 4 SynBlend.

 

The gear performance test simulated an oil's performance during shock loading and shearing forces inside a gearbox.

 

Surprisingly, the top six oils which showed no visible wear after 13 test stages were three synthetic oils, two synthetic/petroleum blends and one mineral oil.

 

The oils included Amsoil MCF, Maxima Maxum 4 SynBlend, Valvoline 4-stroke and Bel-Ray EXS.

 

HORSEPOWER GAINS

 

Some manufacturers claim that using their oils can result in horsepower gains.

 

When two synthetic oils, Motul 300V and Maxima Maxum 4 Ultra, were used on two 1,000cc sports bikes, Sport Rider magazine reported gains of 2.7hp for the Motul and 3.3hp for Maxima.

 

Together with data from tests, you should perform your own road test when choosing an oil. Assess your motorbike's performance after the change.

 

Does gear-shifting become harder? Does your engine oil require topping up after less than 1,000km of riding?

 

If the answer to both questions is 'yes', perhaps you've got the wrong engine oil.

[william_liu]

Just wondering, is the Motul 3100 Gold semi or fully synthetic?

[ANR Impex]

Originally posted by william_liu@February 28, 2007 01:43 pm

Just wondering, is the Motul 3100 Gold semi or fully synthetic?

Non ester semi syn. Found in the Thai specific website. Motul has set up regional blending facilities, the true import ones remain the top range products like 300V, 5100, 7100. I am not sure if 3100 is as I haven't paid attention to it up close, but it is not found in most regional lineup and also not in Europe line up.

 

A host of regional specific cheaper formulations have sprung up to cater to Asian market with less buying power. Their range is getting confusing between the top quality ones that Motul is known for and the cheaper and lower performing regional stuff. Motul is also no longer synonymous with ester. Certain grades like H-TEC is a full syn without ester, no doubt to keep cost down for the branded loyalist.

 

They (the regional stuff) can be differentiated by the cap contruction and back label. The cheap ones all have simpler caps distinctly different from 300V and 5100. The back label also says 'made under license....' instead of 'made in France'. Hope this helps.

[tamiltiger88]

guyz!! changed my engine oil to mech's reccomendation to motul 5100 esther, 15w50.. wah piang eh!! neutral ger lost in the amazon sia! want to dwn gear also difficult!! gt funny funny noise all come out.. can ne1 recomend the best u've experienced on ur kr.. thanking all brudderz!

[stsoh]

anyone try out this brand 'rockoil TRM', multigrade 20w-60 from team HKL racing (clik pic). i think 'first motor' in eunos should have this too.

 

http://www.singaporebikes.com/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=3749294/354a.jpg

 

TRM 20w60 synthetic 4 stroke racing oil

 

TRM is the ultimate lubricant for all highly stressed 4 stroke engines.

 

TRM is a specially formulated synthetic oil containing selected large molecule base fluids combined with a unique additive package. Engines with roller bearing crank shafts and V twin engines; used under arduous or racing conditions.

 

TRM is equally suitable for both roller and plain bearing crank shafts and can be used for air or liquid cooled applications and is also a superb gear lubricant and is ideal for unit construction engines. It is suitable for all modern high performance applications.

 

JASO MA

API SJ

SAE 20w60

 

additional note found in web:

Recommend for any older engines and for endurance racing in roller bearing cranked bikes, with phenomenal results.

[Guest enHANZed]

been & back from fuch's seminar ....seems like they are leaning towards low vicosity as they claims it provides more lubricity and able to conserve fuel therefore .... he (Dr. something something from Fuch ) also recommends 10W40W for singpaores's climate .

 

One point i learnt from the seminar is that a thinner vicosity oil has a better ability to prevent "start up" wear , which is the time where most wear occurs. Thinner oils also bring temp. down which is beneficial to singapore's climate .

 

Buyers also need to becareful of "fake" oils as whats printed on the labels may not be whats in the bottle. Go for reputable brands and u wont go wrong

 

Overall great seminar , prizes to be won , buffet spread , great deals on octane boosters (fuch pro boost S) , screening of extended version of " speed on two wheels" . I myself won a pair of tickets to catch ghost rider ( weekdays only though) and a set of RS Tachi Dry Master Rain coast.

[stsoh]

more info, translated from german2english.

============

TRM Racing 4 SOWS 20W60

 

TRM Racing 4 SKIRT OIL TRM is excellently suitable for classical Rennmaschinen. The large molecular structure offers optimal protection to ball bearings and crankshafts.

 

TRM can be inserted however into all 4-Takt running engines.

 

TRM offers optimal protection and reliability, if engines are driven in the frontier and guarantees outstanding characteristics:

TRM is a product the SKIRT OIL Racing - LINE come out from the extensive assortment the SKIRT OIL Racing - LINE, is TRM a particularly formulated part-synthetic oil. It is combined a development from a particularly largemolecular basic oil, with a singular additive package.

 

TRM' s singular additive package guarantees protection from wear and minimizes cam shafts and crankshafts wear, to become finished while the particularly selected basic oils have the characteristic with extreme pressures and impacts.

 

SKIRT OIL TRM guarantees the following advantages:

Singular additive package protruding thermal stability straight at extremely high temperatures those with Rennmaschinen high viscosity outstanding transmission and clutch compatibility largemolecular basic oils develop guarantee highest pressure pressure, protect against wear and minimize the cam shaft and crankshaft wear, particularly suitably for engines running in ball bearings and high pressure-loaded sliding bearing technical data SOW viscosity degrees of 20W60 kinematic viscosity 250 cSt with 40°C kinematic viscosity 28 cSt with 100°C viscosity for index VI 125 density 0.891 with 15°C HTHS viscosity 6.07 mPa.s with 150°C 106 sec-1

 

SKIRT OIL TRM are recommended particularly at strongly temperature and pressure loaded engines. Thus with all air-cooled classical engines, like e.g. Moto Guzzi and classical Ducatis.

 

TRM offers also all advantages of synthetic oils:

Do not mix SKIRT OIL TRM with other oils.

In principle all engine oils free-for sale in Germany are mixable with one another. Perhaps however the high quality standard of this engine oil worsens by the Beigabe of strange products.

 

TRM is recommended by the company Dynotec for all there GET down to Guzzis exclusive.

[stsoh]

Originally posted by enHANZed@March 04, 2007 01:48 pm

been & back from fuch's seminar ....seems like they are leaning towards low vicosity as they claims it provides more lubricity and able to conserve fuel therefore ....  he (forget who he is ) also recommends 10W40W for singpaores's climate .

 

One point i learnt from the seminar is that a thinner vicosity oil has a better ability to prevent "start up" wear , which is the time where most wear occurs.

 

STSOH....rock roil u recommend is damn thick!

coz my bike small air/oil cool engine.

as long as 20w, it will splash up cylinder liner n piston skirt.

when in operating temp then viscosity maintain at 60 index.

might take longer time to warm-up n more oil resistant will affect hp.

u r rite tat most wc bike don't need VHVI (very high viscosity index) oil.

most oil manufacturer in future will have this VHVI oil.

[Guest enHANZed]

Originally posted by stsoh@March 04, 2007 01:54 pm

coz my bike small air/oil cool engine.

as long as 20w, it will splash up cylinder liner n piston skirt.

when in operating temp then viscosity maintain at 60 index.

might take longer time to warm-up n more oil resistant will affect hp.

u r rite tat most wc bike don't need VHVI (very high viscosity index) oil.

most oil manufacturer in future will have this VHVI oil.

the more u should use low vicosity oil to bring temperatures down

[ANR Impex]

Originally posted by enHANZed@March 04, 2007 01:48 pm

been & back from fuch's seminar ....seems like they are leaning towards low vicosity as they claims it provides more lubricity and able to conserve fuel therefore .... he (Dr. something something from Fuch ) also recommends 10W40W for singpaores's climate .

 

One point i learnt from the seminar is that a thinner vicosity oil has a better ability to prevent "start up" wear , which is the time where most wear occurs. Thinner oils also bring temp. down which is beneficial to singapore's climate .

 

Buyers also need to becareful of "fake" oils as whats printed on the labels may not be whats in the bottle. Go for reputable brands and u wont go wrong

 

Overall great seminar , prizes to be won , buffet spread , great deals on octane boosters (fuch pro boost S) , screening of extended version of " speed on two wheels" . I myself won a pair of tickets to catch ghost rider ( weekdays only though) and a set of RS Tachi Dry Master Rain coast.

That Drymaster raincoat is a great bonus

[stsoh]

Originally posted by enHANZed@March 04, 2007 02:04 pm

the more u should use low vicosity oil to bring temperatures down

yeah, tried 10w-40 multigrade b4.

low viscosity cuz engine 2 vib rougher.

currently using 20w-50, more suitable 4 air/oil cool engine.

try 2 find out 20w-60 how smooth will it be running in air/cooler engine, even if it will affect hp.

[Guest enHANZed]

affect ur FC also

[ANR Impex]

Originally posted by stsoh@March 04, 2007 01:54 pm

coz my bike small air/oil cool engine.

as long as 20w, it will splash up cylinder liner n piston skirt.

when in operating temp then viscosity maintain at 60 index.

might take longer time to warm-up n more oil resistant will affect hp.

u r rite tat most wc bike don't need VHVI (very high viscosity index) oil.

most oil manufacturer in future will have this VHVI oil.

The 60 is too thick for most applications except some low rpm big bore singles or twins or for engines that specifically call for such grades.

 

Bike 4T requirements involves catering for the gears and the engine. While the 60 will offer good protection and durability for the gears, the effect is not necessarily so for the engine main bearings, crank and piston pin bearings. This is especially so for high rpm engines. enHANZed is right, the thinner oil cools better and that is a major function of engine oil, but it also compromises on the gearbox a little. That's where the antiwear additives must take over.

 

All the journal bearings (plain bearings) are separated from the spinning shaft (main crank, cam shaft eg) using hydrodynamic priciples. The effect is further enhanzed by the relative movement of the 2 surfaces (shearing action) that compresses the oil. A thin oil may not have that much static film strength as a thicker oil, but it can take much more pressure at high rpm. But the shearing action generates heat, which is never good.

 

There must be sufficient flow to cool down these journals. Now the oil pump, being a positive displacement pump (like the engine cylinder itself), will give a proportionate flow rate to engine rpm, so there should be no problem right? But this also means it will hydrolock if too thick an oil is use (cold winter morning), hence a pressure relief is built in to bleed off pressure and oil flow, meaning reduced flow to where it should be protecting.

 

So imagine using an overly thick oil at high rpm. You get excessive pressure in the system from pumping the thick viscosity and lots of heat from the journals. Sufficient flow isn't getting to the bearings to cool things down. Either the oil temp continue to rise until an equilibrium is reached where the oil is thin or the engine spins a bearing and self destruct.

 

The Jap inline 4 typically built for 30 to 40wt. 50 is acceptable and popular for bikes because of the gearbox. The 20W60 you quoted (28 cst) is 70~125% thicker than a 40 weight at 100degC. In comparison, Maxima Extra 15w50 (17.42 cst) is 7~39% thicker than a 40.

[uberstore]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b349/Uberstore/amsoillogo_iso1.gif

 

Get your Amsoil Synthetic Oil at

 

Magic Motowerx

 

Blk 1002 Lor 8 Toa Payoh Ind Park

#01-1437 Singapore 319074

Tel: 63531792

 

 

http://www.cruxoil.com/sitebuilder/images/10W40-149x300.jpg http://www.cruxoil.com/sitebuilder/images/20W50-149x300.jpg

 

Specifications

 

 

 

 

 

Specifications

[fruitcakepablohoney]

Hi ANR Impex, This is my 2nd oil change using MAXUM 4 Ultra 5W40.

Is this the correct viscosity for my R606?

[ANR Impex]

Originally posted by fruitcakepablohoney@March 07, 2007 09:57 am

Hi ANR Impex, This is my 2nd oil change using MAXUM 4 Ultra 5W40.

Is this the correct viscosity for my R606?

Yup, it works great for 06R6 as per our conversation earlier on.

[fruitcakepablohoney]

Originally posted by ANR Impex@March 07, 2007 09:31 pm

Yup, it works great for 06R6 as per our conversation earlier on.

Thanks dude, see you soon!