Engine Types - Inline vs V-type vs Boxer

[deckard]

all got their advantages, depends on the user, if you go for good and reliable , nothing beats a honda single cylinder 125cc engine.

[Heathx]

I did more readings. And i think my most basic question was answered by the readings.

 

From what i read, it is true that in MotoGP, most, if not all, are using V4 configuration. The last i heard Inline4 was 2010, Yamaha still using on their M1.

 

As for engine type, well. In terms of power, both V and Inlines are comparable. The issue now is then the power curve. Apparently from what i read, (in terms of stock engine without tampering or mods) Vs have a smoother power curve. Now, from my extremely novice understanding, am i right to say that means Vs can accelerate out faster? from the replies in this thread, it seems to be the case.

 

Now, for Inline4, the power curve is not as smooth. It seems that the case is at a certain rpm range, then there is a power surge. This power surge typically comes at a higher speed, thus the confusion in the Inlines having higher top end.

 

I read that as a result of technology advances, the Vs and Inlines, as long as the number of cylinders, bores etc are similar, the theoretical power output is similar.

 

However, in practice, i'm not sure how it works out. But it's something that the average rider in Singapore will never know, unless go track often!

 

Please feel free to correct me if my understanding is wrong!

[mechwira]

 

However, in practice, i'm not sure how it works out. But it's something that the average rider in Singapore will never know, unless go track often!

 

 

i will try to describe the difference in cornering. this will be a long post.

 

on a straight road when you maintain constant throttle, your bike will go at constant speed. when cornering, if you maintain constant throttle, your bike actually slows down. this is because centrifugal force acts against your bike, pushing it backwards. not only does this mean you corner slower than you can, but the decreasing power sent to the tyres also means the tyres get less grip, and may send you turning wide.

 

the 'correct' cornering technique is to gently increase throttle when you enter the corner, up until the apex, and then you just 'power out' of the corner; in other words 'just whack throttle'. gently increasing the throttle means your engine will gently increase the power sent to the tyres and thus counter-act against centrifugal force, allowing you to maintain constant speed. past the apex, the turn begins to straighten out, so you can start accelerating hard without worrying about running wide.

 

now, inline4 600cc sports like my cbr600 are known to have the weakest torque among class2 sports. below 9000rpm, the engine has little power. if i enter the corner at low rpm, even gently increasing throttle i can feel that the engine is struggling to 'climb up' the rpm against the cornering forces. then when i hit the apex, since the rpm at most middle range, i am not 'powering out' of the corner fully. the 'correct' way of cornering my bike is to enter the corner at high rpm, coz thats where the engine has all the power it needs to counteract the cornering forces. and theoretically i will swee-swee be in the most powerful part of the rpm at the apex, to power myself out.

 

mind you, i not saying the 600cc corners 'slow'. it will out-corner a super4 any day, but i mean relative to the bike's true ability, it does not corner well from low rpm. a 1000cc inline4 is more powerful, but it still has the characteristic of having more power at high rpm.

 

if you're on a v-twin, this does not matter. at low rpm, it already has a good 'pull'. it easily counteracts the cornering forces.

 

but once past the apex, the inline4 (of same capacity) will outpower the v-twin. and you see this in early 2000 WSB races. the ducati v-twins outcorner the japanese inline4 from entry, but once they exit the corner the inline4 japs power past the ducati v-twin easily. thats the common difference.

 

i assure you that you can indeed feel this difference on the road. BUT even with the weakness of either engine, the class2 sportsbike can corner the road faster than it is safe to do so. thats why its more about what you want in the bike than 'which is more suitable for the road'.

[kinwei]

V engine developed torque faster even at low rpm hence pick up is usually faster. Where else inline4 usually need momemtum to built up it power, therefore it usually have power at higher rpm and nowadays manufacturer are trying to increase the RPM range to get more power. If you compare the 2 type of engine power graph, you will see V engine power curve is usually sudden shot up then remain flat until certain rpm then drop. For inline 4, the power curve is usually gradually increase until peak then drop.

 

Somehow it is easier for inline4 to develop higher top speed maybe due to shorter stroke? It is possible for Vtwin to have high top speed but usually at a bigger cc as compared to a inline4. Think Ducati 1098 and above compared to a typical Jap 1000cc. I think that is where V4 came in. To have the best of both world. But honestly speaking, I still think it master of none but definately a balance between both engine configuration.

 

Another good charateristic of V engine is better traction. Think of it like a built in traction control. I forgot the main reason why. I think it has something to do with the engine output pulse. Recently Yamaha develop the cross plane technology, basically to make the inline4 behave something like a V engine.

 

So in summary, I would say V engine will be more suitable for track and as a daily ride.

[XxPJYxX]

i will try to describe the difference in cornering. this will be a long post.

 

on a straight road when you maintain constant throttle, your bike will go at constant speed. when cornering, if you maintain constant throttle, your bike actually slows down. this is because centrifugal force acts against your bike, pushing it backwards. not only does this mean you corner slower than you can, but the decreasing power sent to the tyres also means the tyres get less grip, and may send you turning wide.

 

the 'correct' cornering technique is to gently increase throttle when you enter the corner, up until the apex, and then you just 'power out' of the corner; in other words 'just whack throttle'. gently increasing the throttle means your engine will gently increase the power sent to the tyres and thus counter-act against centrifugal force, allowing you to maintain constant speed. past the apex, the turn begins to straighten out, so you can start accelerating hard without worrying about running wide.

 

now, inline4 600cc sports like my cbr600 are known to have the weakest torque among class2 sports. below 9000rpm, the engine has little power. if i enter the corner at low rpm, even gently increasing throttle i can feel that the engine is struggling to 'climb up' the rpm against the cornering forces. then when i hit the apex, since the rpm at most middle range, i am not 'powering out' of the corner fully. the 'correct' way of cornering my bike is to enter the corner at high rpm, coz thats where the engine has all the power it needs to counteract the cornering forces. and theoretically i will swee-swee be in the most powerful part of the rpm at the apex, to power myself out.

 

mind you, i not saying the 600cc corners 'slow'. it will out-corner a super4 any day, but i mean relative to the bike's true ability, it does not corner well from low rpm. a 1000cc inline4 is more powerful, but it still has the characteristic of having more power at high rpm.

 

if you're on a v-twin, this does not matter. at low rpm, it already has a good 'pull'. it easily counteracts the cornering forces.

 

but once past the apex, the inline4 (of same capacity) will outpower the v-twin. and you see this in early 2000 WSB races. the ducati v-twins outcorner the japanese inline4 from entry, but once they exit the corner the inline4 japs power past the ducati v-twin easily. thats the common difference.

 

i assure you that you can indeed feel this difference on the road. BUT even with the weakness of either engine, the class2 sportsbike can corner the road faster than it is safe to do so. thats why its more about what you want in the bike than 'which is more suitable for the road'.

 

Thanks for explaining mechwira... Seems what my mech told me was right... And I still don't understand what the Bruce said... LOL

[ludacris10]

Yup pretty much.

[h4hahak1m]

Wow this is interesting. I started off reading the thread from post 1. Informative, very layman explanations and stuff. Except for the small tiff in the middle. Haha, no offense.

 

But back to the point of engines, inlines as opposed to v-layout engines. We are, talking about and comparing the layouts right? Then we should know that we should be comparing engines with the same number of pistons, just different layouts (inlines vs Vs). Like comparing v4s and inline 4s, not v-twins and inline 4s. I guess this has been addressed by our brothers/sisters earlier.

 

So now i shall just mention that the engines with same number of pistons in different layouts will have different characteristics. Assume the rest of the engine is identical (valve size, number of valves, cam profiles, bore x stroke etc.), a V engine will generally have a lower centre of gravity. They are also more compact. Generally also, they will have different firing sequences, which will have a huge effect on the power curve. Firing sequences are the major differences between ducati's "big bang" setup and their "screamer" setup. They are also responsible for the lumpy, thumping sound you hear for 09' and above Yamaha R1s, as compared to the smooth, creamy sound of the pre-09' R1s. Of course they changed the whole crank system but ultimately, it's the firing sequence that's altered. This is what yamaha did to counter the power "surge" that inline 4s have, to make it a torquier bike throughout the curve. The firing sequence is also the reason why harleys have that signature pulsing sound.

 

Yes and talk about the power curves. We start from the basics. Torque is just a way to measure the amount of turning force that something has. The reason why inlines generally have higher horsepower figures on paper is simply because they can reach insanely high revs. Horsepower is actually torque, in relative to your revolutions per minute. There is a formula to calculate hp from a torque curve, google it if it interests you. V engines have generally a smoother torque curve, like a plateau, which means that it will produce the same amount of torque throughout the revs. Inlines generally have more torque as the revs go higher, which explains why there is a steeper gradient for their horsepower curves.

 

The explaination above is why bikes like the mt-01 have huge amounts of torque but unimpressive hp figures. However, crack open the throttle anywhere along the powerband and you will find yourself having a hell of a fun time trying to hold on to the handlebars. Torque is awesome.

 

There's alot more to your discussion than just "cbr/s4 vs rvf". I believe what we talk about is just the surface. I can sit down with you the whole day and just talk about engine configs, what changes in the angle of the v engine do, with all the proof i need just by googling. It won't end

 

Oh btw, i don't have a license so don't flame me for riding a small bike. Knowledge doesn't depend the number of years the license has been in your pocket

 

Chill bros, we're all here to learn.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

[XxPJYxX]

Wow this is interesting. I started off reading the thread from post 1. Informative, very layman explanations and stuff. Except for the small tiff in the middle. Haha, no offense.

 

But back to the point of engines, inlines as opposed to v-layout engines. We are, talking about and comparing the layouts right? Then we should know that we should be comparing engines with the same number of pistons, just different layouts (inlines vs Vs). Like comparing v4s and inline 4s, not v-twins and inline 4s. I guess this has been addressed by our brothers/sisters earlier.

 

So now i shall just mention that the engines with same number of pistons in different layouts will have different characteristics. Assume the rest of the engine is identical (valve size, number of valves, cam profiles, bore x stroke etc.), a V engine will generally have a lower centre of gravity. They are also more compact. Generally also, they will have different firing sequences, which will have a huge effect on the power curve. Firing sequences are the major differences between ducati's "big bang" setup and their "screamer" setup. They are also responsible for the lumpy, thumping sound you hear for 09' and above Yamaha R1s, as compared to the smooth, creamy sound of the pre-09' R1s. Of course they changed the whole crank system but ultimately, it's the firing sequence that's altered. This is what yamaha did to counter the power "surge" that inline 4s have, to make it a torquier bike throughout the curve. The firing sequence is also the reason why harleys have that signature pulsing sound.

 

Yes and talk about the power curves. We start from the basics. Torque is just a way to measure the amount of turning force that something has. The reason why inlines generally have higher horsepower figures on paper is simply because they can reach insanely high revs. Horsepower is actually torque, in relative to your revolutions per minute. There is a formula to calculate hp from a torque curve, google it if it interests you. V engines have generally a smoother torque curve, like a plateau, which means that it will produce the same amount of torque throughout the revs. Inlines generally have more torque as the revs go higher, which explains why there is a steeper gradient for their horsepower curves.

 

The explaination above is why bikes like the mt-01 have huge amounts of torque but unimpressive hp figures. However, crack open the throttle anywhere along the powerband and you will find yourself having a hell of a fun time trying to hold on to the handlebars. Torque is awesome.

 

There's alot more to your discussion than just "cbr/s4 vs rvf". I believe what we talk about is just the surface. I can sit down with you the whole day and just talk about engine configs, what changes in the angle of the v engine do, with all the proof i need just by googling. It won't end

 

Oh btw, i don't have a license so don't flame me for riding a small bike. Knowledge doesn't depend the number of years the license has been in your pocket

 

Chill bros, we're all here to learn.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

Well said 👍... Anyway, I anyhow shoot Bruce only, because I remember he said in a post that he's riding a 2b only... Maybe I remembered wrongly... So I just say only... Lol... And also, I still don't understand wtf bruce trying to say... Lol... Don't care already... Mechwira already said everything that needed to be said... So ya... Ride safe guys...

[Heathx]

Thanks Mechwira, Kinwei, and h4hahak1m, your replies were extremely informative and pretty much leaves no confusion regarding the differences between Vs and Inlines in terms of the way they operate. I've learnt some more from h4hahak1m. Prior to his reply, i did not know the firing order had an effect on the power curve, nor did i know the angle of the Vs play a part too.

 

This is indeed a very interesting and informative thread, now that i reread everything posted from top to bottom. Hahaha.

 

Not particularly defending anyone or what, but i guess bruce is very indirect in the way he answers, so it's like go one big round to get to the point. Initially, i had to read his reply 3 times to understand his point. But with a bit of thinking, can get his point. It's a good thing also, cos it's not spoon-feeding. But i know for one that bruce has quite a bit of knowledge on this topic.

 

But i guess, when things get heated up, sometimes we can't control ourselves and just let loose lah. no harm done. but let's try to keep it informative shall we?

[kano]

Well said 👍... Anyway, I anyhow shoot Bruce only, because I remember he said in a post that he's riding a 2b only... Maybe I remembered wrongly... So I just say only... Lol... And also, I still don't understand wtf bruce trying to say... Lol... Don't care already... Mechwira already said everything that needed to be said... So ya... Ride safe guys...

 

 

Do some research before u post la.. Knn RVF v-twin engine.. Ur mechanic easy carrot chop u!

[kano]

Well said 👍... Anyway, I anyhow shoot Bruce only, because I remember he said in a post that he's riding a 2b only... Maybe I remembered wrongly... So I just say only... Lol... And also, I still don't understand wtf bruce trying to say... Lol... Don't care already... Mechwira already said everything that needed to be said... So ya... Ride safe guys...

 

 

Do some research before u post la.. Knn RVF v-twin engine.. Ur mechanic easy carrot chop u!

[ben1112]

Disclaimer: I'm no guru or mechanic but I think my explanation, although not 100% correct is closer to actual reality than some of the very vague ones you have here. My sources are from reading physical motorcycle books, magazines and off the internet over a period of time. My memory might have failed me in some parts, so it is open for discussion and correction.

 

Inline fours make more power at the top of the powerband as compared to V-twins, one of the reasons being that 4 smaller pistons weight less than 2 big ones.

And the lighter the piston, the faster it can move in an engine without failure due to the stress the piston has endure when it transits from the reaching the top and has to decelerate and then accelerate in the opposite direction. A heavy piston makes this more difficult and stressful due to the larger momentum.

 

A V four makes more torque because two of the pistons are pushing on the crankshaft at the same, (eg. 1&3, 2&4, 1&3, 2&4) which equates to two piston pushing for half a rotation cycle and the other two pushing at the other half. Whereas an inline does it like, (1-3-2-4, 1-3-2-4) which means each piston push is spread out evenly in one rotation cycle.

 

Simplified illustration of power pulse in one engine rotation.

Inline \ V

 

1-1-1-1 \ 2-0-2-0

 

This translate to physically you feel inline 4s very smooth power but less torque because the pulses come in evenly, whereas V engine you feel more Raw torque as two pistons pushes at one hit. The even pulses of inline four may also make the engine able to produce power higher in the powerband as the momentum loss between each power pulse is minimised. On the other hand as the V engine makes a doubly powerful pulse, the momemtum loss inbetween may hinder it from revving higher.

 

 

Pls kindly correct me if any areas you think I may have not explained correctly.

[ben1112]

repost...........

[XxPJYxX]

Do some research before u post la.. Knn RVF v-twin engine.. Ur mechanic easy carrot chop u!

 

Lol... My mech tell me v- engine never say what v-twin or v4. U not happy then report police come catch me, don't at here kpkb like one dog... Thanks very much...

[epk]

If you don't know anything, don't act smart like you know everything. Sometimes falsified information may tend to mislead one. Just shut up and start reading and learning. Don't assume that just because one rides a 2b bike, one knows nuts about the technicality aspect of it. Likewise, riding a class2 bike does not make you an instant genius technically. I know tons of people who ride cl2 bikes but haven't got a single clue and how combustion in the engine actually works.

 

Learn to tone down on the ego, be it at work, on the road etc. Be humbe and keep an open mind. There is always something new to learn. Don't be immature just because an individual hammers you with the stone cold facts.

 

Ignorance can be justified, stupidity is forever.

 

Just my opinion after stalking through the forums these years. Have learnt quite a fair bit from the ones who actually know their stuff and not just firing cannons through their rectum.

[ben1112]

People who start a flaming war and people who continue to feed the flames, work hand in hand to bring the standards of the forums down.

[XxPJYxX]

If you don't know anything, don't act smart like you know everything. Sometimes falsified information may tend to mislead one. Just shut up and start reading and learning. Don't assume that just because one rides a 2b bike, one knows nuts about the technicality aspect of it. Likewise, riding a class2 bike does not make you an instant genius technically. I know tons of people who ride cl2 bikes but haven't got a single clue and how combustion in the engine actually works.

 

Learn to tone down on the ego, be it at work, on the road etc. Be humbe and keep an open mind. There is always something new to learn. Don't be immature just because an individual hammers you with the stone cold facts.

 

Ignorance can be justified, stupidity is forever.

 

Just my opinion after stalking through the forums these years. Have learnt quite a fair bit from the ones who actually know their stuff and not just firing cannons through their rectum.

 

Look at what I posted and look at what Bruce posted before pointing fingers... Bruce insisted that v4 has higher top end than inline 4.. And he has shut his mouth now... Now another d!ck pops out of nowhere to bark at me... U wanna join in? Go ahead.. Seems like u dogs don't even know what you're barking about... _|_

[epk]

Alright my apologies you win. Looks like what you said about Rvf being vtwin is true then. Bruce and everyone was wrong.

 

Anyway am not going to continue this with you. Can do all the name rage calling if you want. Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity.

Cheers and have fun a good week ahead mate

[shahrul_azmil3]

I'm from automotive technologies. Have a good background on small engines. Work with a small shop before. Total overhaul a rx100 at the age of 18+ while waiting for ns.

 

But i still like to read on info pass down by guys from the forum.

 

As no one is all knowing. There's always something to learn.

 

Ego check ego down.

 

Damn can we move on?

 

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

[shahrul_azmil3]

Double post

[Heathx]

Disclaimer: I'm no guru or mechanic but I think my explanation, although not 100% correct is closer to actual reality than some of the very vague ones you have here. My sources are from reading physical motorcycle books, magazines and off the internet over a period of time. My memory might have failed me in some parts, so it is open for discussion and correction.

 

Inline fours make more power at the top of the powerband as compared to V-twins, one of the reasons being that 4 smaller pistons weight less than 2 big ones.

And the lighter the piston, the faster it can move in an engine without failure due to the stress the piston has endure when it transits from the reaching the top and has to decelerate and then accelerate in the opposite direction. A heavy piston makes this more difficult and stressful due to the larger momentum.

 

A V four makes more torque because two of the pistons are pushing on the crankshaft at the same, (eg. 1&3, 2&4, 1&3, 2&4) which equates to two piston pushing for half a rotation cycle and the other two pushing at the other half. Whereas an inline does it like, (1-3-2-4, 1-3-2-4) which means each piston push is spread out evenly in one rotation cycle.

 

Simplified illustration of power pulse in one engine rotation.

Inline \ V

 

1-1-1-1 \ 2-0-2-0

 

This translate to physically you feel inline 4s very smooth power but less torque because the pulses come in evenly, whereas V engine you feel more Raw torque as two pistons pushes at one hit. The even pulses of inline four may also make the engine able to produce power higher in the powerband as the momentum loss between each power pulse is minimised. On the other hand as the V engine makes a doubly powerful pulse, the momemtum loss inbetween may hinder it from revving higher.

 

 

Pls kindly correct me if any areas you think I may have not explained correctly.

 

Wow Ben1112, Thanks for your reply! Although firing order is mentioned earlier, but your illustration helped to make it simpler to understand the differences. Especially the 1-1-1-1 and 2-0-2-0 part. Now the torque differences between both engines become crystal clear!

[XxPJYxX]

Alright my apologies you win. Looks like what you said about Rvf being vtwin is true then. Bruce and everyone was wrong.

 

Anyway am not going to continue this with you. Can do all the name rage calling if you want. Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity.

Cheers and have fun a good week ahead mate

 

U wanna be sarcastic, please read all the posts before saying anything. My first post saying v-twin engine because I thought v-twin engine was 4 pistons in pairs of V, hence the twins of V... Each V got 2 pistons so I thought V-twin is 4 pistons. Twin means double doesn't it? That was what I thought until mechwira corrected me... I never say everyone else is wrong, just Bruce. Get it? Wtf. So he's right about V-engine having higher top end than inline engine is it? That's what he said. Go and read before flaming. Wtf

[ben1112]

Wow Ben1112, Thanks for your reply! Although firing order is mentioned earlier, but your illustration helped to make it simpler to understand the differences. Especially the 1-1-1-1 and 2-0-2-0 part. Now the torque differences between both engines become crystal clear!

 

Hi All,

 

I was having a chat with one of my friends regarding Rossi's switch from Ducati to Yamaha when the subject of engine types came up. My friend mentioned that Ducati uses V-engine, whereas Yamaha and Honda still stuck to Inline. He mentioned also that from what he knows, V-engine is very powerful, but tends to lose power near the end part of the race.

 

I was just doing some reading up on different engine types and while most articles were talking about cars, there was no information on clearcut performance differences btn all 3 sets of engines in different segments of a race. Nor was there any graphs to represent the comparison.

 

Are there any bros or sis here with technical knowledge regarding these engines? Care to share a bit?

 

My questions are:

1) which engine is more suited for normal road usage in Singapore?

2) in race setting, which engine has a more consistent power graph?

3) is it true that V-engine loses power over time in terms of a race?

4) what are the advantages and disadvantages of each engine?

 

Thank you in advance to anybody able to shed some light on this topic.

 

I try to answer your qns.

 

1) Torque (broad powerband) is more useful for start-stop traffic.

2) Both layouts can produce consistent power provided the operating parameters are similar. However an air-cooled V twin may receive less air flow to the rear cyl and this has to be compensated by different fueling between front and rear cyl. Watercooling alleviates this problem.

3) ^As above, as long as each engine cyl is operating within its optimum parameters there should not be power loss. However if aircooled engine may build up more heat than it can lose then power can be lost.

4)Physically V engines can take up less space sideways making a less wide bike. Inlines can be less complex to produce. And powerwise as mentioned in my prev post.

 

So I think ultimately its up to designer to choose which layout's profile suits the bikes desired character.

[HimQQ]

I try to answer your qns.

 

1) Torque (broad powerband) is more useful for start-stop traffic.

2) Both layouts can produce consistent power provided the operating parameters are similar. However an air-cooled V twin may receive less air flow to the rear cyl and this has to be compensated by different fueling between front and rear cyl. Watercooling alleviates this problem.

3) ^As above, as long as each engine cyl is operating within its optimum parameters there should not be power loss. However if aircooled engine may build up more heat than it can lose then power can be lost.

4)Physically V engines can take up less space sideways making a less wide bike. Inlines can be less complex to produce. And powerwise as mentioned in my prev post.

 

So I think ultimately its up to designer to choose which layout's profile suits the bikes desired character.

 

Thanks ben, thats some good info

[ben1112]

You're all welcome, I'm glad to be able to contribute what little I know.