SHELL - OFFICIAL STATEMENT RELEASED

[whyh]

Originally posted by w1n6@Mar 6 2005, 07:46 PM

great work dude! dun think s-hell know what is joy of riding all about... i'm sure some of you must have the feeling of gently caressing the open air in the cool moonlite night and the feeling of being electrified![on your bike of course, not your 4 wheels cage, k!? sometime one can shock people with their hand somemore so, in reality, motorcyclist must be doing something right by not dismounting thus preventing static discharge all this while!!?? any s-hell safety management ride?

In layman English, in your own words, what is the implication of highest potential difference, as described in scenario 1?

[Starfury]

Originally posted by w1n6@Mar 6 2005, 07:46 PM

any s-hell safety management ride?

I am in ...

[Starfury]

Originally posted by rhema83@Mar 6 2005, 04:33 PM

Let me use a very simplified physics model to make my point.

 

haha simple physic u say ??? more like maths.. It's great to illustrate yur point. but in actual fact, all senerio should have the same static charge .. zero or near to zero.. In Sillyapore, weather is so humid that it wont let any stuff stay charged for long. But any way lets stop this Static thingy shall we, there are better stuff to discuss.. ie diffential treatement for bikers ( for starters )

[rhema83]

Originally posted by blurrblurr@Mar 6 2005, 05:40 AM

How come never use dy/dx to calculate your differential?

I apologise for my sloppy notation. dV here does not mean the differential increment in potential. It is "delta V" (∆V), which is the integral form. I was too lazy to use the character map to insert the symbol. It has been corrected.

[rhema83]

Originally posted by Starfury@Mar 6 2005, 01:01 PM

haha simple physic u say ??? more like maths.. It's great to illustrate yur point. but in actual fact, all senerio should have the same static charge .. zero or near to zero.. In Sillyapore, weather is so humid that it wont let any stuff stay charged for long. But any way lets stop this Static thingy shall we, there are better stuff to discuss.. ie diffential treatement for bikers ( for starters )

You are right. This is because in humid Singapore, there is a high amount of water in the air with impurities (pure water does not conduct). That act as a weak connection between you, your bike and the ground. So the static build up will not be significant over the long term.

 

However, in this case, we are assuming the worst since we are talking about preventive measures. That is why I didn't just say ∆V = 0 and totally dismiss the risk of static buildup.

[rhema83]

Originally posted by whyh@Mar 6 2005, 05:20 AM

In layman English, in your own words, what is the implication of highest potential difference, as described in scenario 1?

Sorry to bore everyone with more math!

 

We know that current (A) is the flow of charge dV/dt. The average current is:

= ∆V/∆t

where ∆t is the time it takes for you to fully discharge.

 

Assuming that ∆t is very small (electricity travels at the speed of light) and constant (you simply put your hand naturally onto the fuel cap), the current is directly proportional to ∆V.

 

In layman's terms, the higher the potential difference ∆V, the larger the discharge current and the higher the risk of a spark, ie fire risk.

 

For those who don't believe or haven't experienced what I described, go to a dry air-conditioned room. First rub a woollen sweater against your skin for 10 seconds and then touch a metal grounded object. Then wear the sweater over, take it off, and then touch that metal grounded object again. The chance of a spark jumping between you and the object will be much higher for the second case.

 

My point here is not to discourage riders from dismounting. I am just setting the facts straight. Dismounting does not decrease the risk of fire. In fact it increases it. So the Shell policy (encouraging scenarios 1 and possibly 4) increases the risk of fire to let you have an easier escape. In my opinion, fire prevention should still be the top priority. Prevention is better than cure!

[rhema83]

Originally posted by w1n6@Mar 6 2005, 07:46 AM

great work dude! dun think s-hell know what is joy of riding all about... i'm sure some of you must have the feeling of gently caressing the open air in the cool moonlite night and the feeling of being electrified![on your bike of course, not your 4 wheels cage, k!? sometime one can shock people with their hand somemore so, in reality, motorcyclist must be doing something right by not dismounting thus preventing static discharge all this while!!?? any s-hell safety management ride?

Paiseh, I am a bit slow today so I don't know if you are just joking or you really experienced "shock" like that.

 

From my experience, you don't get charged up by the air that easily. I've never experienced getting "electrified" while riding in Singapore. Even in the northern US where I'm residing now, I have never experienced passive static buildup (no wearing or removing of woollen clothes, of course) that result in sparks jumping between me and ground. I always ground myself to the car's chassis before refuelling but so far I've never experienced a spark.

[whyh]

Originally posted by rhema83@Mar 7 2005, 02:08 AM

Sorry to bore everyone with more math!

 

We know that current (A) is the flow of charge dV/dt. The average current is:

= ∆V/∆t

where ∆t is the time it takes for you to fully discharge.

 

Assuming that ∆t is very small (electricity travels at the speed of light) and constant (you simply put your hand naturally onto the fuel cap), the current is directly proportional to ∆V.

 

In layman's terms, the higher the potential difference ∆V, the larger the discharge current and the higher the risk of a spark, ie fire risk.

 

For those who don't believe or haven't experienced what I described, go to a dry air-conditioned room. First rub a woollen sweater against your skin for 10 seconds and then touch a metal grounded object. Then wear the sweater over, take it off, and then touch that metal grounded object again. The chance of a spark jumping between you and the object will be much higher for the second case.

 

My point here is not to discourage riders from dismounting. I am just setting the facts straight. Dismounting does not decrease the risk of fire. In fact it increases it. So the Shell policy (encouraging scenarios 1 and possibly 4) increases the risk of fire to let you have an easier escape. In my opinion, fire prevention should still be the top priority. Prevention is better than cure!

Thanks for explanation.... I am not sure if I understood correctly though. Paiseh..

 

Wouldn't dismounting result in discharging after the bike is grounded, and before the fuel cap is opened? In that light, how does dismounting increase the risk of fire?

 

Paiseh.. ... in layman terms please..

[whyh]

Originally posted by Starfury@Mar 7 2005, 01:01 AM

haha simple physic u say ??? more like maths.. It's great to illustrate yur point. but in actual fact, all senerio should have the same static charge .. zero or near to zero.. In Sillyapore, weather is so humid that it wont let any stuff stay charged for long. But any way lets stop this Static thingy shall we, there are better stuff to discuss.. ie diffential treatement for bikers ( for starters )

In the light of this new regulation by Shell, I see a differrent treatment for bikers, but not a discriminatory one.

 

Do you mean discrimination against bikers, by Shell?

 

I still fail to see why and how the purpose of this measure implemented by Shell is to distinguish or to make a clear distinction between 4 wheelers and 2 wheelers, just to discourage bikers from patronising Shell.

 

[STi]

Chill it guys........

Every body have their own point of view...

No point arguing with someone who just wans to win and argue senselessly(After reading all of his Arguements.) ..: faint:

 

Just let him continue going shell, dismount put mainstand or side stand to pump his bike or whatever since he love shell so much.... Who knows one day u might see him in esso or Caltex cos in the first place he never go shell so wat if shell have all these policy..

 

As for me, I never go shell since when i realise that I can exchange better stuff with lower points with Exxon-Mobil and never will

 

Anyway signed yr petition cos i never like shell's service anyway since one attendent shouted at me many years back.........

 

We all choose wat we choose and like.

Shell make u do something u dun like..........

so how??? You have a CHOICE!!!

DON"T GO SHELL PUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SIMPLE!!!!!!

[whyh]

Originally posted by STi@Mar 8 2005, 02:06 PM

Chill it guys........

Every body have their own point of view...

No point arguing with someone who just wans to win and argue senselessly(After reading all of his Arguements.) ..: faint:

 

Just let him continue going shell, dismount put mainstand or side stand to pump his bike or whatever since he love shell so much.... Who knows one day u might see him in esso or Caltex cos in the first place he never go shell so wat if shell have all these policy..

 

As for me, I never go shell since when i realise that I can exchange better stuff with lower points with Exxon-Mobil and never will

 

Anyway signed yr petition cos i never like shell's service anyway since one attendent shouted at me many years back.........

 

We all choose wat we choose and like.

Shell make u do something u dun like..........

so how??? You have a CHOICE!!!

DON"T GO SHELL PUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SIMPLE!!!!!!

You can accuse anyone or mock at anyone you want, but this is not the place to do it.

 

If this is the place to do it, then you got no right to accuse anyone here in this thread of being senseless.

 

This thread is about Shell's new regulation. Read the subject title, and be sensible please.

[STi]

Originally posted by whyh@Mar 8 2005, 03:06 PM

You can accuse anyone or mock at anyone you want, but this is not the place to do it.

 

If this is the place to do it, then you got no right to accuse anyone here in this thread of being senseless.

 

This thread is about Shell's new regulation. Read the subject title, and be sensible please.

Firstly, I did not accuse anyone as no names are mentioned............

Secondly Senseless or not is in the Beholders eyes.

Thirdly, I'm sticking to the topic SHELL VS THE PEOPLE. Which I stated my stand that I'm not going to Shell and too sign the Petition and I support and respect Mplex for doing this to fight for his right rather then be a puppet of the big Giants like wat Mahathir say about Singaporeans;" Govt ask them do wat, they just listen and do."

Funny, the topic did not mention static..........

 

Anyway wat i'm trying to put across is u have yr point to listen and follow wat shell leads you to do BUT dun have to implant your obedience to others that disagree with the policy.

You wan to be a good boy and listen to them Fine with us!! (I beleive tat no one will object you from dismounting and pumping petrol) Why keep implanting your obedience on us.

Those that dun buy the policy wan to fight for their rights rather then obey, Let them be!!! they dun implant thier thoughts to u...... realise that many who argue with u give up and keep quite eventually cos U have your choice to listen, obey and let Shell lead u on wat must be done and wat must not be.

SO let them be.

[whyh]

Originally posted by STi@Mar 8 2005, 03:37 PM

Firstly, I did not accuse anyone as no names are mentioned............

Secondly Senseless or not is in the Beholders eyes.

Thirdly, I'm sticking to the topic SHELL VS THE PEOPLE. Which I stated my stand that I'm not going to Shell and too sign the Petition and I support and respect Mplex for doing this to fight for his right rather then be a puppet of the big Giants like wat Mahathir say about Singaporeans;" Govt ask them do wat, they just listen and do."

Funny, the topic did not mention static..........

 

Anyway wat i'm trying to put across is u have yr point to listen and follow wat shell leads you to do BUT dun have to implant your obedience to others that disagree with the policy.

You wan to be a good boy and listen to them Fine with us!! (I beleive tat no one will object you from dismounting and pumping petrol) Why keep implanting your obedience on us.

Those that dun buy the policy wan to fight for their rights rather then obey, Let them be!!! they dun implant thier thoughts to u...... realise that many who argue with u give up and keep quite eventually cos U have your choice to listen, obey and let Shell lead u on wat must be done and wat must not be.

SO let them be.

I respect Mplex for doing what he thinks is beneficial for the riding community, and I also believe I am also doing what I think is beneficial for the riding community. Different beliefs nevertheless, but even MPLEX doesn't accuse me of anything.

 

You are now accusing me of implanting my 'obedience' to others? In the eyes of the beholder again, by your definition? Are you accusing Mplex of implanting his 'disobedience' to others?

 

Is Mplex telling anyone mustn't dismount? Am I telling anyone must dismount?. Both of us has different idea which is a BETTER way, and none of us are doing this just for the sake of obeying or disobeying anyone or anything.

 

Anyway, you are welcome to read through the arguements presented before, and bring on your best arguements related to the new regulation, for the benefit of all riders.

[MPeX]

Cool it cool it... bikers having internal strife, no good no good...

 

We're meeting Shell's Operations Support Manager at West Coast Mcdonalds this coming Thursday at 3.30pm, and we'll be bringing your voices, opinions and feedback to them.

 

For the time being, bikers who support their notation and want to dismount, dismount. Those who are not favourable of their policy, simply make the switch to another brand.

 

Although I would say that most members here are against the "no-straddling" policy, there are a few who see the merits of dismounting before refueling. The best way around this would be to agree to disagree, in a friendly manner. Debate is good as it lets us see both sides of the issue. For all you know, previous supporters might migrate to "the other side", while non-believers might see the light and dismount in the near future.

 

Really appreciate all the constructive comments and contributions by everyone. Rest assured that I will try my best this coming Thursday, and keep everyone updated on the progress or outcome.

[whyh]

Originally posted by MPeX@Mar 8 2005, 08:46 PM

Cool it cool it... bikers having internal strife, no good no good...

 

We're meeting Shell's Operations Support Manager at West Coast Mcdonalds this coming Thursday at 3.30pm, and we'll be bringing your voices, opinions and feedback to them.

 

For the time being, bikers who support their notation and want to dismount, dismount. Those who are not favourable of their policy, simply make the switch to another brand.

 

Although I would say that most members here are against the "no-straddling" policy, there are a few who see the merits of dismounting before refueling. The best way around this would be to agree to disagree, in a friendly manner. Debate is good as it lets us see both sides of the issue. For all you know, previous supporters might migrate to "the other side", while non-believers might see the light and dismount in the near future.

 

Really appreciate all the constructive comments and contributions by everyone. Rest assured that I will try my best this coming Thursday, and keep everyone updated on the progress or outcome.

No internal strife la.... I never took offence.

 

It's normal to attract personal attack from immature minds when you stand up for something or someone unpopular.

 

If I can clear my afternoon appointment on Thursday, I hope to meet you there too, and listen to both sides of the debate. We can come to a fairer conclusion, especially about discrimination, after we listen to views from both sides.

 

Although I didn't start this thread, I hope further debates, if any, can focus on the issue at hand, and avoid irrelevant comments or unsubtantiated accusations like comments from foreign governments, conspiracy in Shell, degree holders in Shell, and passengers in cars or car drivers, or fairness etc.. all which do not shed light on whether this practice is safer or more dangerous, and which are useless in Thursday's meeting.

 

If anyone wanna just vent their frustration, there are 'feel good' threads where riders threaten, curses, ridicule, mock and laugh at Shell and it's stakeholders and feel good about themselves.

 

I also hope questions I asked in earlier posts can be answered.

 

Let's keep this thread healthy, at least till Thursday.

[STi]

Originally posted by hohosaint@Mar 6 2005, 01:31 PM

First post Posted: Mar 6 2005, 01:21 PM belongs to me. Subsequent following up closing with others user or biker posted.

 

Thats all la... I am not getting involved in such unworkable debates emm, wit u.

Agreed... :thumb: Time to zzzzz of this thread cos the debate seems seems to get no where.

Anyway to Mplex All the best this thursday and Kudos to yr fighting spirit....

[whyh]

Originally posted by STi@Mar 8 2005, 10:25 PM

Agreed... :thumb: Time to zzzzz of this thread cos the debate seems seems to get no where.

Anyway to Mplex All the best this thursday and Kudos to yr fighting spirit....

There may be people who have something relevant and substantial to contribute. Why in a hurry to close this thread?

 

Debates never get anywhere with personal attack, and much less with nothing more than mass opinion to back it up.

[Metalfyre]

Originally posted by whyh@Mar 8 2005, 10:44 PM

There may be people who have something relevant and substantial to contribute. Why in a hurry to close this thread?

 

Debates never get anywhere with personal attack, and much less with nothing more than mass opinion to back it up.

There are debates, POVs and disagreements.

 

But this hasn't led anywhere...at least for me.

 

I cannot make you see my POV.

 

And you failed to make me change mine.

 

And so, you'll just do what you think is right, i.e. dismounting

 

And I'll not do what I think is unnecessary.

 

And we'll agree to disagree.

 

Is there any other resolution?

[whyh]

Originally posted by Metalfyre@Mar 8 2005, 11:28 PM

There are debates, POVs and disagreements.

 

But this hasn't led anywhere...at least for me.

 

I cannot make you see my POV.

 

And you failed to make me change mine.

 

And so, you'll just do what you think is right, i.e. dismounting

 

And I'll not do what I think is unnecessary.

 

And we'll agree to disagree.

 

Is there any other resolution?

I like to think I have seen you and William Liu's POV, but you probably disagree.

 

It's also apparent most people in this thread find dismounting before refueling with little merits, if any.

 

I can tell that Mplex, William Liu, and you are not here to dictate opinion, but always to express opinion with truth and conviction, and we do not let disagreement sour relationships.

 

Agreeing to disagree is one way to live in peace, and when anyone told me to agree to disagree, I accepted it.

 

But that should not stop anyone from raising questions, isn't it? Some people are too immature and biased to see that it's ok to disagree.

 

I suggest we keep our minds open, and see if there's any more rational and relevent comments in this thread. Let's not dismiss this thread so soon.

 

BTW, you going this Thursday?

[suzuki13]

Originally posted by MPeX@Mar 8 2005, 08:46 PM

Cool it cool it... bikers having internal strife, no good no good...

 

We're meeting Shell's Operations Support Manager at West Coast Mcdonalds this coming Thursday at 3.30pm, and we'll be bringing your voices, opinions and feedback to them.

 

For the time being, bikers who support their notation and want to dismount, dismount. Those who are not favourable of their policy, simply make the switch to another brand.

 

Although I would say that most members here are against the "no-straddling" policy, there are a few who see the merits of dismounting before refueling. The best way around this would be to agree to disagree, in a friendly manner. Debate is good as it lets us see both sides of the issue. For all you know, previous supporters might migrate to "the other side", while non-believers might see the light and dismount in the near future.

 

Really appreciate all the constructive comments and contributions by everyone. Rest assured that I will try my best this coming Thursday, and keep everyone updated on the progress or outcome.

whoaa so sincere meet at mc to buy u happy meal ....why not at their office...

a bit cheapo right....bike complain mc / hawker...car complain offices n resturant har...zzzzzz btw i will be there to listen if u dont mine...sms me if u mind..96665366

[suzuki13]

Originally posted by rhema83@Mar 7 2005, 02:08 AM

Sorry to bore everyone with more math!

 

We know that current (A) is the flow of charge dV/dt. The average current is:

= ∆V/∆t

where ∆t is the time it takes for you to fully discharge.

 

Assuming that ∆t is very small (electricity travels at the speed of light) and constant (you simply put your hand naturally onto the fuel cap), the current is directly proportional to ∆V.

 

In layman's terms, the higher the potential difference ∆V, the larger the discharge current and the higher the risk of a spark, ie fire risk.

 

For those who don't believe or haven't experienced what I described, go to a dry air-conditioned room. First rub a woollen sweater against your skin for 10 seconds and then touch a metal grounded object. Then wear the sweater over, take it off, and then touch that metal grounded object again. The chance of a spark jumping between you and the object will be much higher for the second case.

 

My point here is not to discourage riders from dismounting. I am just setting the facts straight. Dismounting does not decrease the risk of fire. In fact it increases it. So the Shell policy (encouraging scenarios 1 and possibly 4) increases the risk of fire to let you have an easier escape. In my opinion, fire prevention should still be the top priority. Prevention is better than cure!

bro so sry i dun know what you are trying to say but i give for the thing u write....

[whyh]

Originally posted by suzuki13@Mar 9 2005, 12:26 AM

bro so sry i dun know what you are trying to say but i give for the thing u write....

I also give standing ovation... and

[w1n6]

Originally posted by whyh@Mar 9 2005, 12:29 AM

I also give standing ovation... and

hi whyh, just curious here... since when have you learn about 'stand-up' pump petrol? how long have you been doing it? thanks.

[MPeX]

Guys, i RSVP to Shell only 03 pax in attendance this Thursday. Officially that's myself, mIcMaSta and Enotsol.

 

I'm apprehensive about quoting too many SBF representitives in case the Shell manager should feel intimated or threatened by the presence of too many bikers. However non-officially, there's nothing to stop all brothers and sisters of from patronizing Macs, sitting nearby our table and listening in to the dialogue session.

 

 

This is the time/location of our dialogue session with Shell:

 

WEST COAST McDonalds

10 March 2005

3.30pm

 

Contact person: MPeX - 96801978

[whyh]

Originally posted by w1n6@Mar 9 2005, 12:48 AM

hi whyh, just curious here... since when have you learn about 'stand-up' pump petrol? how long have you been doing it? thanks.

I'm sorry, but I am not sure what you mean, but I assume you mean refueling while straddling?

 

I have been doing it since I was riding small bikes for many years, but stopped doing it after I saw a bike topple onto the pump when the rider dismount to pay at cashier after he finished refueling.

 

Although confident I won't make such a mistake, I decided to take precaution anyway.