Product : Engine Oil Discussion

[NoFishesAllowed]

Just 1 thing to note for maxima oil. In the amsoil EO test, maxima sheared out of grade. unless u mod yr engine, race/high-rev or planning extended OCI, i doubt it make any different.

 

wads this mean?

[revhappy]

wads this mean?

 

It means if you ride like 10K RPM or something the oil will thin out in viscosity and wont provide the required protection. Extended OCI means Oil change Interval more than what is specified in the manual. If you dont do the above 2 things it wont make any difference if you choose either of the oils as both are excellent quality oils.

[Isopropyl]

wads this mean?

 

to make it simple, it mean the oil turn watery. once the oil loses it "thickness", it load bearing ability to prevent metal to metal contact reduced.

 

if you are not pushing your bike, it should be just fine.

 

if you are looking into ester oil, why don't you consider other brand like motul? the motul 7100 should be just great for day to day use. or the motul 300v if you are looking for more juice

[NoFishesAllowed]

to make it simple, it mean the oil turn watery. once the oil loses it "thickness", it load bearing ability to prevent metal to metal contact reduced.

 

if you are not pushing your bike, it should be just fine.

 

if you are looking into ester oil, why don't you consider other brand like motul? the motul 7100 should be just great for day to day use. or the motul 300v if you are looking for more juice

 

 

i tried motul but then again i find over price just cos racers use them then prce very high

[revhappy]

i tried motul but then again i find over price just cos racers use them then prce very high

 

Thats why I tried out out Chex 9000, cost 16$ per bottle. There is no fun in buying a branded and expensive oil. There is no surprise element to it. Its expensive so its expected to work. The fun is when you discover an unbranded oil thats as good as a branded oil and also works gr8

 

BTW, Only Motul 300V is very expensive;28-30$ and is double ester. Motul 7100 is single ester and should cost in the same range as the other 2 oils you are comparing i.e. Belray and Maxima. Maxima Ultra 20W50 fully synthetic they say is triple ester. Hehe. So you should just try to out to find out if triple esters really work Hehe.

[NoFishesAllowed]

Thats why I tried out out Chex 9000, cost 16$ per bottle. There is no fun in buying a branded and expensive oil. There is no surprise element to it. Its expensive so its expected to work. The fun is when you discover an unbranded oil thats as good as a branded oil and also works gr8

 

BTW, Only Motul 300V is very expensive;28-30$ and is double ester. Motul 7100 is single ester and should cost in the same range as the other 2 oils you are comparing i.e. Belray and Maxima. Maxima Ultra 20W50 fully synthetic they say is triple ester. Hehe. So you should just try to out to find out if triple esters really work Hehe.

 

where u get ur chex ? isit esters also?

[revhappy]

where u get ur chex ? isit esters also?

 

Chex is available in many shops, Unique motors, planet motors. I have also seen it in shops in Tampines Industrial area and AMK industrial area. So have a look near your house, I am sure it should be available.

 

Whether its ester or not I am not sure. It is a German oil rebranded and sold only in Singapore. If you look at the bottle shape it resembles OWS bottle. So that gives you some clue. Hehehe.

 

I have been using it for nearly 2k kms and its actually getting smoother and smoother by the day and by the way its going it looks like it will easily last 3.5k kms. So I am going to stay with this oil for quite sometime unless someone convinces me of another cheaper 50 Weight oil that is as good as this. Hehe

[Isopropyl]

where u get ur chex ? isit esters also?

 

actually there is really no way we will know what is the stock base unless they are being revealed to us. even for synthetic, it could be a blend of group 3 to 5 bases. there is only a few brand we can be sure. for 100% ester, oil you can get easily over here is motul, maxima, belray, redline, xrex etc... for PAO or gourp 4, you have mobil and amsoil. amsoil is more PAO + a certain percentage of ester according to some dealers.

 

personally, if you ask me for ester recommendation, i will say go with Redline motorcycle oil. it cost $20 at MXtrading. but the downside is you have to change yourself. Redline motorcycle oil is almost everything you want from a bike EO except some feel uncomfortable over it high moly level which is over 500PPM.

 

if you just want one of the best protection, go with amsoil or mobil. if you want something cheaper and good, you can try chex 9000 if your engine allow a 50w oil. excellent oil at a good price.

 

seriously, if your riding is only to bring you from point A to B, any good brand will do. service it regularly is much more important then sweating over which stock base is in the engine oil. HEDO for you sir? haha...

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

Nice scientifically based discussion above. Did you all read the "motor oil bible"? It's about 300 pages of free e-book goodness on oils and everything about them.

 

I read some interesting bits about HDEO and it seems they are still using mineral oil for some reason. Also, very pricey, partly because of the brand.

[Isopropyl]

Nice scientifically based discussion above. Did you all read the "motor oil bible"? It's about 300 pages of free e-book goodness on oils and everything about them.

 

I read some interesting bits about HDEO and it seems they are still using mineral oil for some reason. Also, very pricey, partly because of the brand.

 

where to download this "bible"? i thought we have to pay for it.

 

just ride to malaysia yesterday. a 5L bottle of Mobil Delvac MX cost just RM73. it cheaper then 1L of Motul:) further more it is CI-4 rated while Rimula R3X is CH-4. both is Allison C4 approve which mean it is suitable for wet clutch.

 

the only problem is how to i transport 5L of engine oil back to singapore on a bike. haha...

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

I will get everyone here a link. It should be mandatory reading before joining the circle of oil gurus led by @Isopropyl :3

 

5 litres of oil. Got problems convincing Customs you're not importing stuff lol! Of course, if you can "borrow" a friend's car for the boot, it's no issue to explain the presence of the oil.

 

I forsee my Bajaj Avenger shall be converted to run on turbodiesel oil :3

 

Btw:

 

There is a technical discussion going on for the past few friday nights. Kopitiam locations + riding + DIY sometimes. Any oil experts interested to show their stuff?

Edited March 15, 2011 by Pandora's Kitten :3

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

Mandatory reading!

 

Motor oil bible

http://www.zag.si/~jank/public/bmw/oil_bible.pdf

 

Quote of interest - page 25 onwards:

 

SYNTHETIC BASESTOCKS

 

Synthetic lubricant basestocks have very little in common with their petroleum "cousins". They are used for a similar purpose.

 

But, while one is designed specifically for the purpose of lubrication, the other has been simply transformed into something that will adequately do the job.

In fact, the relationship between these two basestock types would be similar to the relationship between a big rock and a hammer. Both can be used to drive nails, but one will be far more effective than the other. A hammer which is designed for driving nails will do so much more efficiently than will a rock.In addition, the hammer will be able to drive nail after nail without any significant loss in its integrity. The quality of the hammer will degrade very little over time. However, the rock will easily be chipped and cracked when used to pound nails. In fact, you would probably find that after only a few dozen nails, you would need to go find a new rock to pound nails with.

 

You see, the rock was not designed to pound nails. Of course, you could fashion it into something that looked like a hammer if you like, but it's still a rock. It will work in a pinch, but it is not the right tool for the job.

 

But, along comes "Nail Drivers Inc." with a novel idea. They decide to first determine what the qualities of a good "nail driver" would be. Then they fashion a tool that is specifically designed to have these

qualities.

 

Doesn't it make sense that the new tool will accomplish the job far better than the old rock? The same is true of a synthetic oil when compared to a petroleum oil.

 

Designed to be Better

 

In the case of synthetic basestocks the first step is the most important. The lubricant manufacturer first decides what the final lubricant is going to be used for. Once that is determined, research is done to determine what lubricant characteristics will be best suited to that particular application. Only then is manufacture of the actual lubricant basestock begun.

 

On the surface, the manufacture of synthetic basestocks may seem far more simplistic than the manufacture of a petroleum oil. In the case of synthetics, materials of low molecular weight are chemically reacted with each other to produce materials of higher molecular weight with very specific

lubricating properties.

 

There is no need to separate the basestock into fractions of differing molecular weight because the intended molecular weight is formed at the start. There is no need to extract contaminants or transform them into something useful because there are no contaminants to begin with. As a result, there is little for me to explain when it comes to synthetic basestock manufacturing.

 

Nevertheless, it is important to understand that the particular materials used for chemical reaction and the methods used for those reactions will result in synthetic basestocks of varying quality. Experience is essential to proper manufacture of a quality synthetic basestock.

 

Synthetic basestocks manufactured in this way will have the following basic benefits over their petroleum basestock counterparts: improved low and high temperature performance, improved oxidative and thermal stability, enhanced frictional characteristics and longer lubricant life.

 

Types of Synthetic Basestocks

 

Synthetic basestocks are not all the same. There are few different chemical types that may be used as synthetic basestock fluids. There are only three that are seen commonly in automotive applications:

 

1. Polyalphaolefins (PAO's)

 

These are the most common synthetic basestocks used in the US and in Europe. In fact, many synthetics on the market use PAO basestocks exclusively. PAO's are also called synthesized hydrocarbons and contain absolutely no wax, metals, sulfur or phosphorous.

 

Viscosity indexes for nearly all PAO's are around 150, and they have extremely low pour points (normally below -40 degrees F).

 

Although PAO's are also very thermally stable, there are a couple of drawbacks to using PAO basestocks. One drawback to using PAO's is that they are not as oxidatively stable as other synthetics. But, when properly additized, oxidative stability can be achieved.

 

PAO's also tend to shrink seals which was discovered in the early 70's when a major oil manufacturer had seal troubles with their first synthetic formulation.

 

2. Diesters

 

Less commonly used, these synthetic basestocks offer many of the same benefits of PAO's but are more varied in structure. Therefore, their performance characteristics vary more than PAO's do. Nevertheless, if chosen carefully, diesters generally provide better pour points than PAO's (about -60 to -80 degrees F) and are a little more oxidatively stable when properly additized.

 

Diesters also have very good inherent solvency characteristics which means that not only do they burn cleanly, they also clean out deposits left behind by other lubricants - even without the aid of detergency additives.

 

As with PAO's, diesters can affect seals. However, they generally cause seal swell as opposed to seal shrinkage. Chemically resistant seals are recommended if using synthetic base oils manufactured with diesters.

 

3. Polyolesters

 

Similar to diesters, but slightly more complex. Greater range of pour points and viscosity indexes than diesters, but some polyolester basestocks will outperform diesters with pour points as low as -90 degrees F and viscosity indexes as high as 160 (without VI additive improvers). The same seal swell characteristics exist with polyolesters as with diesters.

 

Other synthetic basestocks exist but are not nearly as widely used as those above - especially in automotive type applications. Most synthetics on the market will use a single PAO basestock combined with an adequate additive package to provide a medium quality synthetic lubricant. However, PAO basestocks are not all the same. Their final lubricating characteristics depend on the chemical reactions used to create them.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Pandora's Kitten :3

[Isopropyl]

thks pandora for the link! interesting read. i just skim through for a few mins. lots of useful information.

 

one thing i notice is the author seem to be very pro-synthetic. no doubt synthetic is better then dino any day but saying dino will shorten 2/3 of the engine's life is just plain wrong. there are example of engines lasting beyond 200,000miles running nothing but dino oil like Castrol GTX, HDEO etc. there are also countless UOA proving that dino-oil can give wear protection as well as synthetic in normal circustances at the sametime giving decent OCI.

 

the author give the analogy of using a hammer and a rock to drive a nail. he does make some valid points if the item to be nailed is solid hard wood the last much longer. if it is just soft compressed wood i doubt it make much different. it depend largely on the engine condition as well as usage.

 

the same old debate goes round and round. there is no best oil. just choose something which match the engine/riding style/wallet and change it regularly.

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

Indeed

 

It all depends on the machine and the usage of which. But suffice to say a rider who knows what he wants from the machine should be able to pick a right oil package for his intended purpose of that machine. The best oil is one that suits my budget, delivers sufficient real world performance and satisfies my vanity, after all

[revhappy]

where to download this "bible"? i thought we have to pay for it.

 

just ride to malaysia yesterday. a 5L bottle of Mobil Delvac MX cost just RM73. it cheaper then 1L of Motul:) further more it is CI-4 rated while Rimula R3X is CH-4. both is Allison C4 approve which mean it is suitable for wet clutch.

 

the only problem is how to i transport 5L of engine oil back to singapore on a bike. haha...

 

But isnt Mobil Delvac MX a mineral oil? 73RM ~=29$ so about 6$ per litre. You can get Mobil 20W50 motorcycle Mineral oil at LAB for 6$

[Isopropyl]

But isnt Mobil Delvac MX a mineral oil? 73RM ~=29$ so about 6$ per litre. You can get Mobil 20W50 motorcycle Mineral oil at LAB for 6$

 

yes it is a mineral oil.

 

it HDEO my friend. it properties is very suitable for motorcycle use. it original purpose is for engines that run from dawn to dusk with OCI that can be from 10-20k kms, it is formula to be extremely shear stable with load of additives to keep your engine in good condition.

 

you can read the ebook posted by pandora and note the comment on motorcycle oil. they are often engine oil with outdated spec selling at premium price after putting on motorcycle specific oil.

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

Oil experts needed in the following thread :3 Can also debate in RL.

 

http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums/showthread.php/296266-Friday-Night-Bikers?p=6993791&viewfull=1#post6993791

 

Oops I realised I 'borrowed' some quotes from Iso above, when posting there. One ramly burger as royalty :3

[revhappy]

yes it is a mineral oil.

 

it HDEO my friend. it properties is very suitable for motorcycle use. it original purpose is for engines that run from dawn to dusk with OCI that can be from 10-20k kms, it is formula to be extremely shear stable with load of additives to keep your engine in good condition.

 

you can read the ebook posted by pandora and note the comment on motorcycle oil. they are often engine oil with outdated spec selling at premium price after putting on motorcycle specific oil.

 

Hmm.. interesting. I found another link where guys are using diesel engine oil for bikes.

http://www.main.slackriders.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=57503.html

 

Let us know of your results. Might be tempted for my next change

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

Yep it's not just one group of bikers using it. I have read about it literally around the world :3

 

They have been doing that a long time before Shell certified a certain type of diesel oil for bike use and marketed it as such.

[kinwei]

Interesting fact regarding the diesel engine oil on bikes. So much that I want to try it on my busa for the next oil change. But if diesel oil can do better and cheaper than premium oil, then why not? But do diesel oil contains friction modifier? Thats my only concern for clutch slip.

 

Any specific diesel oil recommendation? where to get? price? I prefer full synthetic version as mineral will built up slug.

Edited March 16, 2011 by kinwei

[Isopropyl]

Interesting fact regarding the diesel engine oil on bikes. So much that I want to try it on my busa for the next oil change. But if diesel oil can do better and cheaper than premium oil, then why not? But do diesel oil contains friction modifier? Thats my only concern for clutch slip.

 

Any specific diesel oil recommendation? where to get? price? I prefer full synthetic version as mineral will built up slug.

 

hi. gald to know someone else is interested.

 

some HDEO do contain friction modifier. like those with API CJ-4 rated. they contain certain amount of moly. one example is caltex Delo 400 which contain about 200ppm of moly. still, alot of riders use it with success so i assume it should be safe to use. certain soluble moly is not bad for wet clutch. for example even motul 300v contain moly and the legendary Redline motorcycle oil contain more then 500ppm yet it is still safe for wet clutch.

 

if you are like me who like to err on the safe side, one simple way is look for HDEO that have Allison C4 rated. it mean the oil is rated for transmission use. for example like Shell Rimula RX3 or Mobil Delvac MX. but generally, HDEO should be safe for wet clutches.

 

in singpore, you can get in most shell or esso station. for 1L, it cost $11+ or $40-50+ for 5L for the above 2 oils. if you want to save, JB will be much cheaper. RM14.90/RM18.00 for 1L and RM68/RM73 for 5L respectively for Rimula RX3 and Delvac MX.

 

don't worry about slug my friend. keeping the engine clean is one of the wonder of HDEO. it contain high level of detergent which will keep diesel engine clean will keep your engine in bling bling conditon too:)

 

in malaysia, our fellow riders have already been using HDEO for ages. their SBF version which is call MBC have tons of discussion on HDEO for bikes. if you understand malay or don't mind using google translation which is doing a pissful job, you can do your research. Example from another forums.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Isopropyl

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

Meow :3

 

Might want to look up if there are busa enthusiasts (internationally) doing or have done experiments using diesel/turbodiesel engine oils on busas first. This is to detect if this make of bike has issues with the different type of oil when producing class 2 levels of horsepower.

 

For our case of vastly smaller cc engines featured in previous discussions in this thread the chance of things going wrong is tiny - the engines don't even stress the oil.

 

It's of course a good idea to experiment with diesel oils - due to possible cost savings and having the chance to learn more about engine oil chemistry. But it's also wise to do some 'due diligence' checks first.

 

For instance I know for classic and chopper-type bikes the higher levels of certain additives like phosphorous are great for additional protection, because newer-spec bike oils have less of these additives due to emissions legislations.

 

Theoretically, something that supports a 150,000rpm turbocharger in a powerful pickup truck should be able to survive in a Hayabusa engine. But I think better check out the web first, once again, to see if busa owners have done this before. It's one matter to run a cheap Perodua on palm oil (my Phantom is as valueless as a used Perodua so I don't care if experiments go wrong) but it's another matter altogether to do the same on a Ferrari. I'd personally, keep the Busa on Motul 300V until someone else tries Rimula 3X on it. Logic being, I can afford the Busa, so it deserves to run with the best fluids

 

Better way to experiment is to try Rimula first, it being a motorcycle-rated diesel formulation (from what I heard), then from Rimula switch to something like a synthetic turbodiesel oil. Properly scientific testing will take months or even years because we don't have local access to oil testing labs and to do scientific analysis on engine wear.

 

There is no rush to switch busa to diesel oil. Let us with small bikes test out first

[kinwei]

Meow :3

 

Might want to look up if there are busa enthusiasts (internationally) doing or have done experiments using diesel/turbodiesel engine oils on busas first. This is to detect if this make of bike has issues with the different type of oil when producing class 2 levels of horsepower.

 

For our case of vastly smaller cc engines featured in previous discussions in this thread the chance of things going wrong is tiny - the engines don't even stress the oil.

 

It's of course a good idea to experiment with diesel oils - due to possible cost savings and having the chance to learn more about engine oil chemistry. But it's also wise to do some 'due diligence' checks first.

 

For instance I know for classic and chopper-type bikes the higher levels of certain additives like phosphorous are great for additional protection, because newer-spec bike oils have less of these additives due to emissions legislations.

 

Theoretically, something that supports a 150,000rpm turbocharger in a powerful pickup truck should be able to survive in a Hayabusa engine. But I think better check out the web first, once again, to see if busa owners have done this before. It's one matter to run a cheap Perodua on palm oil (my Phantom is as valueless as a used Perodua so I don't care if experiments go wrong) but it's another matter altogether to do the same on a Ferrari. I'd personally, keep the Busa on Motul 300V until someone else tries Rimula 3X on it. Logic being, I can afford the Busa, so it deserves to run with the best fluids

 

Better way to experiment is to try Rimula first, it being a motorcycle-rated diesel formulation (from what I heard), then from Rimula switch to something like a synthetic turbodiesel oil. Properly scientific testing will take months or even years because we don't have local access to oil testing labs and to do scientific analysis on engine wear.

 

There is no rush to switch busa to diesel oil. Let us with small bikes test out first

 

I did a survey at Hayabusa.org forum. It seems that some busa riders had already been using diesel oil for quite some time but it is mainly Shell Rotella T (link) which I think is marketed for USA market. It 15W40 version is Jaso ma rated. If I can find this in SG, provided it is of a competitive pricing, I do not mind trying.

 

But I guess I will try Mobil Delvac first, since it meet API SL/SJ.. at least something which is recommended by the bike manual. As long it is does not contain friction modifier nor is energy conserving, I'm game to try.

 

Actually doesn't mean I can afford a busa means I should anyhow spend my hard earn money. You don't see me pump 98 or V power as 95 is sufficient for my bike. I buy engine oil in carton to save on the cost and I have never ever spent more than $20 for 1L of engine oil. I don't even change my oil at 5k km as I think it a waste. 8k~10k km for me, LOL.

 

Anyway I still got left over Maxima Extra at home. Need to change to it first (soon). It will takes me another 8k to 10k km before I will flush it out, then I will try the HDEO.

[Isopropyl]

hi kinwei. Rotella is only market in USA. in other countries, it is market under Rimula or Shell Helix. locally we can only find Rimula RX3 easily. although it look similar to the link you posted, the rating is different. RX3 is only CH-4 rated. it might be the samething or very close. if you want to find something else, you might need to email shell to direct you to a dealer.

 

If i am not wrong, Rotella T6 might be the samething or close to Helix HX7 Diesel . both is synthetic. as the rating is different, there is no way to tell. only Rotella is JASO MA rated. Helix HX7 Diesel can be found easily in JB. cost is RM29/RM99 for 1L and 4L bottle.

 

it seem many only think people are using HDEO for cost saving while neglecting the fact that it does performance better or comparable to many motorcycle oil.

 

can't wait for my next oil change. so far only 500km on the carlube 4T. another 1500km to go before i ditch it for Delvac MX

Edited March 16, 2011 by Isopropyl

[pikapika]

anyone can advice where to buy chex 900 in amk? and the cost?

currently using idemitsu semi sync but regular one is castrol power1 fully sync