Product : Engine Oil Discussion

[Isopropyl]

i am not too convince the raise in temperature is due to HDEO. i got a feeling it more about the viscosity rather then the type of oil been use. put it another way. since the temperature is directly taken from the oil, it might be the thinner oil is able to "whisk" heat away from the moving parts better therefore higher in temperature?

 

as terence have mention, i have never see much convincing evidence that synthetic cool better then dino when all things been equal. often, the cooler temperature is due to friction modifier and viscosity.

[Isopropyl]

terence, what is your most popular motorcycle oil?

 

btw you do know that amsoil AMO and ARO used to be Amsoil motorcycle oil before MCF and MCV? AMO and ARO is another example of multi-purpose oil that is suitable for diesel, gasoline and motorcycle. they could simply put different label on the bottle and you will have HDEO, PCMO and motorcycle oil from the same forumla. i wont be surprise if that is a common practice. same formula, different label and therefore price.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Isopropyl

[trex101]

Don't have a particularly brand that outsell others by a large margin but popular ones are Motul 300v 10w40 4T, RP 10w40 CI-4, some RL 10w40 4T and Schaeffer 5w40 but now Schaeffer 5w50 are moving.

 

I don't know that AMO and ARO are in fact MCF and MCV. Their prices differences is so big that if it's true, it will be very unethical for Amsoil to reap their customers off like that. Don't you think so?

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

i am not too convince the raise in temperature is due to HDEO. i got a feeling it more about the viscosity rather then the type of oil been use. put it another way. since the temperature is directly taken from the oil, it might be the thinner oil is able to "whisk" heat away from the moving parts better therefore higher in temperature?

 

as terence have mention, i have never see much convincing evidence that synthetic cool better then dino when all things been equal. often, the cooler temperature is due to friction modifier and viscosity.

 

Yeah, if @naim and I can make HDEO work then the 'general public' should see that it won't make the engine blow up magically. For me I changed throttle control, carb setting and riding style to exploit the HDEO 'loophole', and have fun chasing GSRs and CB400s around Sengkang last night with the torque bonus.

 

@trex101 - yep I would put HDEO as an option for increasing low-mid range pull (slap a big 'experimental' sticker on the bike cos locally few people dare try HDEO) and 4T for general purpose riding and stock machines. While personally I enjoy HDEO as it suits my riding style, there's always the big problem of 'liability' when making unconventional recommendations. Cos you know the rider you're selling to ain't going to follow any sort of scientific testing routine, just pour in and pehh and expect magic. Might come back with a burnt engine if he/she doesn't know what to expect.

 

The fact that replacing 4T with HDEO will cause an immediate rise in oil temp and the fact should not be denied - a decent street performance 4T is still my recommendation for any rider old or new. Though some of the desirable brands are costly (Motul!) hence the interest in experimentation. There's interest in alternatives such as Pennzoil Titanium, AMSoil, and RP due to this.

 

For more practical experimentation I would suggest hopping over to a Malaysian bike forum or two - they have a few dozen riders up there successfully using Rimula R3X on everything from DR400SMs to kupchais. I'm not sure any of them have noticed and posted the oil temperature changing though..... but none of the bikes suffered any ill effects somehow.

[Isopropyl]

Don't have a particularly brand that outsell others by a large margin but popular ones are Motul 300v 10w40 4T, RP 10w40 CI-4, some RL 10w40 4T and Schaeffer 5w40 but now Schaeffer 5w50 are moving.

 

I don't know that AMO and ARO are in fact MCF and MCV. Their prices differences is so big that if it's true, it will be very unethical for Amsoil to reap their customers off like that. Don't you think so?

 

wat i mean is before MCF and MCV, AMO and ARO is amsoil MC oil. they designed an improved oil and hence MCF and MCV:thumb: so the older version end up as a "general all rounded" oil. according to a amsoil dealer, MCV/MCF have a higher amount of ester added and less VII therefore more shear stable as reflected in their HTHS rating. also minor change in Anti-wear/Friction modifier and better corrosion inhibitor. there might be other changes that we are not aware of.

 

remember our good friend Shell Rotella T? CJ/SM and JASO-MA rated. i guess most major HDEO will be able to get JASO-MA rated as well if they intend to. one shouldn't be surprise if that apply for many other oil too.

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

remember our good friend Shell Rotella T? CJ/SM and JASO-MA rated. i guess most major HDEO will be able to get JASO-MA rated as well if they intend to. one shouldn't be surprise if that apply for many other oil too.

 

There are quite a lot of heavy machinery out there that use wet clutches, so the JASO MA rating is relevant for their application.

 

For others who are curious (or still think 'wtf u will overhaul engine tmw'), check out SlackRiders Malaysia forum for a whole bunch of supermotards, sportsbikes and 'supersports' kupchais using Rimula R3X, or google search for Rotella discussion threads in American motorcycle club forums. Over there no one is paying $28-36 for Motul 300V, they prefer to find cheaper alternatives for their bikes and none of them ever report the problems seen in preceding pages. They probably know how to tune their engines to counter the oil temp increase, or adapt to the interestingly different powerband provided by HDEO.

 

A lot swear by Rotella, prescribing it as a top choice motorcycle oil, and some even use Rotella for their whole fleet of vehicles, from ATVs to motorcycles, cars, trucks and 18-wheelers.

 

More recently it was also discovered that coastal ferries operating in Singapore coastal waters use Rimula R3X as well, to which I'm surprised since it's not a marine-diesel rated oil. Works perfectly fine.

[trex101]

2 day ago i want talking to my supplier, he haven't heard before about HDEO uses for bike but he did mention that early generation HDEO used to have foaming problem with some commercial engine and what they did is to recommend adding anti-foaming agent to solve the problem. Symptom sound similar, high oil temperature, viscosity shearing and increase oxidation.

 

If you want to try HDEO, try different brand and monitor the oil temp and sound level. Some HDEO might not have the right amount of anti-foam agent as other HDEO.

[Isopropyl]

2 day ago i want talking to my supplier, he haven't heard before about HDEO uses for bike but he did mention that early generation HDEO used to have foaming problem with some commercial engine and what they did is to recommend adding anti-foaming agent to solve the problem. Symptom sound similar, high oil temperature, viscosity shearing and increase oxidation.

 

If you want to try HDEO, try different brand and monitor the oil temp and sound level. Some HDEO might not have the right amount of anti-foam agent as other HDEO.

 

most major brands should be fine. to get the API rating whether for commercial or service, the oil have to pass ATSM D-892 foaming tendency test.

 

most people have the impression that HDEO is only mean for low to mid RPM diesel engine while forgetting the same oil is used for turbo-charger or high pressue pump operating at high-rpm in some diesel engine.

[Isopropyl]

There are quite a lot of heavy machinery out there that use wet clutches, so the JASO MA rating is relevant for their application.

 

For others who are curious (or still think 'wtf u will overhaul engine tmw'), check out SlackRiders Malaysia forum for a whole bunch of supermotards, sportsbikes and 'supersports' kupchais using Rimula R3X, or google search for Rotella discussion threads in American motorcycle club forums. Over there no one is paying $28-36 for Motul 300V, they prefer to find cheaper alternatives for their bikes and none of them ever report the problems seen in preceding pages. They probably know how to tune their engines to counter the oil temp increase, or adapt to the interestingly different powerband provided by HDEO.

 

A lot swear by Rotella, prescribing it as a top choice motorcycle oil, and some even use Rotella for their whole fleet of vehicles, from ATVs to motorcycles, cars, trucks and 18-wheelers.

 

More recently it was also discovered that coastal ferries operating in Singapore coastal waters use Rimula R3X as well, to which I'm surprised since it's not a marine-diesel rated oil. Works perfectly fine.

 

yes sir!!! totally on the spot.

 

if commerical companies trusted their multi-million dollars equipments on these lorry oil, i sure we can have a peaceful night sleep.

[trex101]

most major brands should be fine. to get the API rating whether for commercial or service, the oil have to pass ATSM D-892 foaming tendency test.

 

most people have the impression that HDEO is only mean for low to mid RPM diesel engine while forgetting the same oil is used for turbo-charger or high pressue pump operating at high-rpm in some diesel engine.

 

Yes, was told the foaming issue are from a major brand of HDEO even though it's only a few year back. That is something we have to take note of. Best is to monitor the oil temp or side glass, see if there's any bubbles in the oil, not all HDEO are made equal i believed.

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

most major brands should be fine. to get the API rating whether for commercial or service, the oil have to pass ATSM D-892 foaming tendency test.

 

most people have the impression that HDEO is only mean for low to mid RPM diesel engine while forgetting the same oil is used for turbo-charger or high pressue pump operating at high-rpm in some diesel engine.

 

Am aware of oil being used to cool turbochargers and other equipment as you say, some turbos run at up to 150,000rpm (thats 150 thousand revs) and the oil must survive, protect turbo parts and dissipate heat away from the turbine without breaking down.

 

So when some riders in Thailand were talking to me about using Mobil 1 Turbodiesel in their Phantoms and other cruisers, I was instantly curious. Phantom is not exactly easy on the oil, it runs very high revs when people cruise at up to 130kph on the highway between cities.

 

Initially last year we thought there is no market for such oils because in Singapore bike shops are so easy to find. But later on, with the help of other SBF riders I worked out the cost of 5L of Rimula from JB to be almost nothing compared to conventional motorcycle oils.

 

Believe me, once riders start taking minute notes regarding riding and maintenance costs, RM 70 for 5L of Rimula is well worth the trip.

 

 

@trex101 - any off the shelf aftermarket oil additives with good anti foam properties? I want to see if it helps with oil temps.

[ludacris10]

Pandora where in JB do you get RIMULA?

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

Hi, you want to try Rimula on your S4? May not be recommended as CB400s appear to be quite picky about their oil. Difficult to experiment too as if Rimula really needs carb adjustment for best performance, then the quad-carb setup is not exactly easy to DIY.

[trex101]

No, not off the shelf type, was told it comes in 20 gallon pail type for commercial usage. Try different HDEO, some might work better than others.

[ludacris10]

Hi' date=' you want to try Rimula on your S4? May not be recommended as CB400s appear to be quite picky about their oil. Difficult to experiment too as if Rimula really needs carb adjustment for best performance, then the quad-carb setup is not exactly easy to DIY.[/quote']

 

But if there's no friction modifiers and the weightage is able to protect the engine then there wont be much problems would there?

[nbk3]

Pandora where in JB do you get RIMULA?

 

I did abit of hunting myself, you can get it from major Shell Select petrol kiosks along major roads.

 

the Rimula they sell there are in 5L bottles rm71.50, (as compared to SG where its 4L, costing near sgd45)

[carbine]

Am aware of oil being used to cool turbochargers and other equipment as you say, some turbos run at up to 150,000rpm (thats 150 thousand revs) and the oil must survive, protect turbo parts and dissipate heat away from the turbine without breaking down.

 

So when some riders in Thailand were talking to me about using Mobil 1 Turbodiesel in their Phantoms and other cruisers, I was instantly curious. Phantom is not exactly easy on the oil, it runs very high revs when people cruise at up to 130kph on the highway between cities.

 

Initially last year we thought there is no market for such oils because in Singapore bike shops are so easy to find. But later on, with the help of other SBF riders I worked out the cost of 5L of Rimula from JB to be almost nothing compared to conventional motorcycle oils.

 

Believe me, once riders start taking minute notes regarding riding and maintenance costs, RM 70 for 5L of Rimula is well worth the trip.

 

 

@trex101 - any off the shelf aftermarket oil additives with good anti foam properties? I want to see if it helps with oil temps.

 

the main concern is clutch slipage

[carbine]

Am aware of oil being used to cool turbochargers and other equipment as you say, some turbos run at up to 150,000rpm (thats 150 thousand revs) and the oil must survive, protect turbo parts and dissipate heat away from the turbine without breaking down.

 

So when some riders in Thailand were talking to me about using Mobil 1 Turbodiesel in their Phantoms and other cruisers, I was instantly curious. Phantom is not exactly easy on the oil, it runs very high revs when people cruise at up to 130kph on the highway between cities.

 

Initially last year we thought there is no market for such oils because in Singapore bike shops are so easy to find. But later on, with the help of other SBF riders I worked out the cost of 5L of Rimula from JB to be almost nothing compared to conventional motorcycle oils.

 

Believe me, once riders start taking minute notes regarding riding and maintenance costs, RM 70 for 5L of Rimula is well worth the trip.

 

 

@trex101 - any off the shelf aftermarket oil additives with good anti foam properties? I want to see if it helps with oil temps.

 

the main concern is clutch slipage

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

@[c]arbine - Rimula has no clutch slippage, infact low rpm clutch engagement is much better. This may be a bad thing for high revving bikes as increased clutch friction means higher temperature.

 

@ludacris10 - that's why I'm recommending you leave the HDEO experiments to more simple single cylinder 2B bikes first. If something goes really wrong my overhaul is only $400, yours will be much more expensive!

 

You might also be interested to know some S4 riders tried 50-weight oil that a lot of Phantom riders seem to like (Chex 9000 10W50) and reported immediate loss of acceleration. OWS brand, don't even try. Cause a lot of problems. If your current oil works, stick with it My bike may like HDEO, but I can't say the same for your bike.

 

Unless someone has a older S4 (spec 1?) going to scrap in the next couple of years, knows how to monitor engine temperature and don't mind using it as a HDEO testbed.

[trex101]

Check out ASTM D892 testing requirement: http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/global/foamtend/default.htm

 

Different Diesel spec have different D892 foaming limit, E4-E7 Sequence 10ml, 50ml, 10ml for Sequence I, II, III while E9 10ml, 20ml, 10ml. Those diesel oil with older spec will have higher amount of foam limit set, so look for E9-08 and above if you are want to use it on bike engine.

Edited November 23, 2011 by trex101

[trex101]

double post. deleted.

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

Check out ASTM D892 testing requirement: http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/global/foamtend/default.htm

 

Different Diesel spec have different D892 foaming limit, E4-E7 Sequence 10ml, 50ml, 10ml for Sequence I, II, III while E9 10ml, 20ml, 10ml. Those diesel oil with older spec will have higher amount of foam limit set, so look for E9-08 and above if you are want to use it on bike engine.

 

Awesome! Thanks for your contributions and expertise so far

[trex101]

No worries, I'm learning about bike spec and characteristic too due to our increasing biker customers base. Have to understand how different lubricant works to better serve my customers if they have any enquiry or problem with their machine

[Isopropyl]

normally after an oil change the oil tend to "disappear" for a while. often cause me to over-filled when i depend on the dip-stick. it will "reappear" after a day. so now i just measure about 700ml where the manual state 800ml and top again if needed the next day. i always wonder where did "they" hide for the day:cheeky:

 

anyway, rounded the screw thread of the swing arm for adjusting the chain tension:cry: so no choice but to use another nut to "push" the first screw in and tighten the wheel axle's nut for a quick fix. wanted to get it repair but raining is not helping.

[Pandoras Kitten 3]

No worries, I'm learning about bike spec and characteristic too due to our increasing biker customers base. Have to understand how different lubricant works to better serve my customers if they have any enquiry or problem with their machine

 

Just don't mix HDEO and normal motorcycle oils. Funny things will occur

 

One question - do you deal with the better, fully synthetic Rimula R6 LM? My group had contacted various local distributors but there's a problem trying it for bike use.... it comes in 50 gallon drums!

 

How to get a smaller quantity?