Bike suddenly died on the expressway!

[crazydj]

Hi guys!

 

I want to ask you guys what could be wrong with my bike so that i can do the necessary repairs.

 

The thing was that on my way back home on the expressway, my bike's engine suddenly died. Sudden. So i stopped at the side to solve the problem.

 

Everything was fine except that there were no spark coming out from the ignition coil wire. I removed the spark plug cap, exposed the bare ignition coil wire and placed it close to the spark plug. No spark when electric or kickstart. There normally will be a spark present.

 

So the thing is, what could be the main problem that caused this? A spoilt ignition coil? Or could there be other factors as well.

 

The bike never gave me any problems. So far, i've been riding, its been normal. Then suddenly this happened. I don't really want to call for a tow because Planet is 1.2km and my house is only 3km from the carpark where i left my bike.

 

I would appreciate your input guys!

 

Deep down i actually feel kinda excited because this is my first breakdown in 3 years! Its surprising how calm i was in that situation. But i also feel excited because if i get this thing to run, i can tell my kids next time that last time "Daddy bike broke down, i leave at carpark, go all the way to supplier and fix it myself". Haha. More things to talk about.

[MiddleAgedBiker]

Check the easy stuff first. How's the battery voltage like? All the fuses ok?

 

I'm not sure how you exposed the ignition coil wire, but that isn't how we normally check for spark. Fit the plug back into the coil wire, ground the plug electrode on a good ground (cylinder head covers are usually good, but I normally use a multimeter to check continuity with ground on the battery to verify a good ground first), then crank the engine over with the run switch and ignition on. You can clearly then see whether or not a spark jumps across the spark plug electrodes.

 

You didn't mention what bike you're riding, is it single or multi-cylinder? If multi-cylinder, do you have no spark only on one cylinder or all cylinders? If one cylinder I'd start by tracing the condition of the plug wires perhaps by doing a voltage drop test. If no spark on all cylinders, I'd check the inputs coming into the ignition control module are all correct.

 

Usual inputs to the ICM are neutral switch, sidestand switch, A/C pickup coil, engine run switch and so on. If all the inputs are ok, I'd suspect that the ICM is spolit. I'd try to borrow one from a similar bike to test first before ordering a new one.

[MiddleAgedBiker]

If you have a manual, you should also check which coil pack is controlling spark to which cylinders. Say for example of one coil controls cylinders #1 and #4 and the other coil controls #2 and #3, and you're getting no spark on #1 and #4 but getting spark on #2 and #3, it would give you a clue that one of the packs probably has a problem.

 

If you have no manual you can visually see which wires are coming from which coil packs.

[crazydj]

I'm riding a YBR 125. Single cyclinder.

 

To cut my long story short, i bought a new ignition coil and plug cap. Still no spark. In the end, gave up, because its either have to change CDI or open up the engine already and i cannot do this at some public carpark haha.

 

Turns out that the CDI spoil. Coil was changed as well just in case. Bike runs fine now. CDI spoil the bike instantly will die? What is an ICM?

[xXxRatedxXx]

I'm riding a YBR 125. Single cyclinder.

 

To cut my long story short, i bought a new ignition coil and plug cap. Still no spark. In the end, gave up, because its either have to change CDI or open up the engine already and i cannot do this at some public carpark haha.

 

Turns out that the CDI spoil. Coil was changed as well just in case. Bike runs fine now. CDI spoil the bike instantly will die? What is an ICM?

 

same thing happened to me... i endure for one year before changing the CDI

[MiddleAgedBiker]

I'm riding a YBR 125. Single cyclinder.

 

To cut my long story short, i bought a new ignition coil and plug cap. Still no spark. In the end, gave up, because its either have to change CDI or open up the engine already and i cannot do this at some public carpark haha.

 

Turns out that the CDI spoil. Coil was changed as well just in case. Bike runs fine now. CDI spoil the bike instantly will die? What is an ICM?

 

ICM = Ignition Control Module. It's the computer brain that takes various inputs from sensors all over the bike, and then determines whether or not to fire a spark, and when to fire that spark. E.g. if the wire carrying the neutral switch signal says the bike is not in neutral, and the clutch switch says the clutch is not engaged, the ICM will not fire. Same with the Engine Run Switch.

 

Most importantly there is an A/C pickup coil (some bikes like BMWs use Hall Sensors) located somewhere near your crankcase, and this tells the ICM the position of your crankshaft/camshaft. When the engine is at the right position (piston near TDC), the ICM sends a voltage to the right coil pack on multi-cylinder engines, the coil pack steps up the voltage, sends the high voltage current through the plug wires, and the current travels to the spark plugs and jumps the gap creating your spark.

 

The CDI is probably the term the mechanics use for the ignition control module. It's probably referring to the same thing.

 

Swapping parts to try to fix problems might be ok for smaller bikes, but when you get to a bigger bike, these parts are going to be very very expensive. E.g. an ICM (or CDI) might cost upwards of $500, and if you buy a new one and it turns out the problem was with the A/C pickup coil for example, or a broken wire coming from the A/C pickup coil (happened to me recently), or a short on the Engine Run switch wire, that would be a very expensive "fix". It might be better to find a mechanic who will diagnose the source of the problem and confirm it first before changing a part.

 

Glad you managed to solve the problem!

[kaiq]

Just courious, is it only newer bikes got ICM but all electric-start bike got CDI?

[MR BIKER]

Just FYI; leaving a bike a the expressway without being attended , seaw seaw, TP come get summon. call for tow and wait at the bike.

[ProFatSir]

Just FYI; leaving a bike a the expressway without being attended , seaw seaw, TP come get summon. call for tow and wait at the bike.

 

before the TP reach its already tow away to the nearest public carpark by the emas...hahaha

[crazydj]

ICM = Ignition Control Module. It's the computer brain that takes various inputs from sensors all over the bike, and then determines whether or not to fire a spark, and when to fire that spark. E.g. if the wire carrying the neutral switch signal says the bike is not in neutral, and the clutch switch says the clutch is not engaged, the ICM will not fire. Same with the Engine Run Switch.

 

Most importantly there is an A/C pickup coil (some bikes like BMWs use Hall Sensors) located somewhere near your crankcase, and this tells the ICM the position of your crankshaft/camshaft. When the engine is at the right position (piston near TDC), the ICM sends a voltage to the right coil pack on multi-cylinder engines, the coil pack steps up the voltage, sends the high voltage current through the plug wires, and the current travels to the spark plugs and jumps the gap creating your spark.

 

The CDI is probably the term the mechanics use for the ignition control module. It's probably referring to the same thing.

 

Swapping parts to try to fix problems might be ok for smaller bikes, but when you get to a bigger bike, these parts are going to be very very expensive. E.g. an ICM (or CDI) might cost upwards of $500, and if you buy a new one and it turns out the problem was with the A/C pickup coil for example, or a broken wire coming from the A/C pickup coil (happened to me recently), or a short on the Engine Run switch wire, that would be a very expensive "fix". It might be better to find a mechanic who will diagnose the source of the problem and confirm it first before changing a part.

 

Glad you managed to solve the problem!

 

I see. I get this. So i think that the ICM is the general term to describe the CDI, IDI, etc. Because i was looking in my bike's parts and service manual, they referred it to it as the CDI.

[ezzyoiler]

i have this dying cdi problem too...

the very famous p........motors unable to solve/identified this problem..keep on changing parts.....over 6 months

i went through a terrible time...the cdi is not 100% dead...it works and then when you are on the road it stalls..

then 10 min to half hr of cooling..tinkering..jump starting the bike can be started again..

this unreliable bike....really makes me very frustrated..bike towed to workshop more than 10 times..

finally the last breakdown..decided to send to another workshop...

diagnose within a week..that a dying cdi was the problem...and eversince that day..everything ok..

never visit the p.... motors again..really dissapointed..

 

you are lucky in that sense that the problem was identified and sorted out almost immediately..and you dont have to go through the agony of riding a bike that when you ride out..not sure it can come back..or when you want to ride it..it cannot be started..

[crazydj]

you are lucky in that sense that the problem was identified and sorted out almost immediately..and you dont have to go through the agony of riding a bike that when you ride out..not sure it can come back..or when you want to ride it..it cannot be started..

 

Haha bro. You think? Because the truth is, i have already changed almost EVERYTHING on my bike. Since last year, same mech. I go buy the parts and get him to fix. Some cosmetic fix myself. Changed rectifier, change magnetic coil, changed ignition coil, changer starter motor, changed carburettor. So left is to change the CDI but the bike spoil before i wanted haha.

 

That's why ah, i prefer to stay with the mech i am comfortable with. Its because he knows what i have changed over the years and he knows is better because he's worked on it.

 

So now my bike, everything that is important and 'electrical', is new. So if anything spoil, its most likely the engine bottom part of the engine already.

[Hawkster]

Just courious, is it only newer bikes got ICM but all electric-start bike got CDI?

 

All bikes will need an ignition control module of some sort. Think of it as the brain that tells your spark plugs when to fire.

 

It's not related to whether the bike is electric or kick start. Those are just different ways to turn your engine over when starting your bike. The kick start uses your leg power, the electric start uses battery power to turn the starter motor.

 

In the old days, this brain was mechanical in nature, and I think it used transistors and mechanical points to fire the plugs. These are very unreliable because when the points wear out, your bike will be stuck on the side of the road. Nowadays in S'pore I think hard to find a vintage bike with mechanical points.

 

Since the 70s to 80s I think all bikes shift to use electronic ignition modules already (commonly called CDI I guess).

[yinghai]

This thread is so funny.. Theres no such thing as icm on a ybr.. Icm, cdi, tci, idi, aci, or whatever "i", is totally a different thing.. Cdi is cdi.. No such icm exist on ybr.. Ybr no inline 4, no map, no injector, no o2, no funny sensor for icm to control.. Ybr is just a simple single cylinder bike...

[crazydj]

Ybr is just a simple single cylinder bike...

 

And it only has a CDI. Haha...

[MiddleAgedBiker]

This thread is so funny.. Theres no such thing as icm on a ybr.. Icm, cdi, tci, idi, aci, or whatever "i", is totally a different thing.. Cdi is cdi.. No such icm exist on ybr.. Ybr no inline 4, no map, no injector, no o2, no funny sensor for icm to control.. Ybr is just a simple single cylinder bike...

 

An ignition control module is just a generic name used for devices that control when the spark fires. It's like saying cars, trucks, bicycles, motorcycles are all vehicles. A vehicle is a generic term. Similarly an ICM is just a generic term.

 

It doesn't matter whether your engine is an inline 4 or single cylinder engine. It must have a controller to control when the spark fires. That's just basic 4 stroke engine operation principles.

 

And by the way, if your bike has an injector or an o2 sensor, then you have a fuel injected bike. In that case the ECM itself does the ignition control and you will not have a separate ignition control module.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

From wikipedia:

 

Capacitor discharge ignition (CDI) or thyristor ignition is a type of automotive electronic ignition system which is widely used in outboard motors, motorcycles, lawn mowers, chainsaws, small engines, turbine-powered aircraft, and some cars.

[BLACK COMET]

All bikes will need an ignition control module of some sort. Think of it as the brain that tells your spark plugs when to fire.

 

It's not related to whether the bike is electric or kick start. Those are just different ways to turn your engine over when starting your bike. The kick start uses your leg power, the electric start uses battery power to turn the starter motor.

 

In the old days, this brain was mechanical in nature, and I think it used transistors and mechanical points to fire the plugs. These are very unreliable because when the points wear out, your bike will be stuck on the side of the road. Nowadays in S'pore I think hard to find a vintage bike with mechanical points.

 

Since the 70s to 80s I think all bikes shift to use electronic ignition modules already (commonly called CDI I guess).

 

Actually bikes that used contact points for ingnition timing is still around. RXK is a perfect example. Also. All vintage vespa is still using that. Only the later vespa PX is using CDI

[yinghai]

An ignition control module is just a generic name used for devices that control when the spark fires. It's like saying cars, trucks, bicycles, motorcycles are all vehicles. A vehicle is a generic term. Similarly an ICM is just a generic term.

 

It doesn't matter whether your engine is an inline 4 or single cylinder engine. It must have a controller to control when the spark fires. That's just basic 4 stroke engine operation principles.

 

And by the way, if your bike has an injector or an o2 sensor, then you have a fuel injected bike. In that case the ECM itself does the ignition control and you will not have a separate ignition control module.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

From wikipedia:

 

Capacitor discharge ignition (CDI) or thyristor ignition is a type of automotive electronic ignition system which is widely used in outboard motors, motorcycles, lawn mowers, chainsaws, small engines, turbine-powered aircraft, and some cars.

 

Bro, i think you better check what you type.. I also think you read too much online.. I work in workshop for many many years also nobody ask me for icm ecm.. Ecu have lah..

[crazydj]

Bro, i think you better check what you type.. I also think you read too much online.. I work in workshop for many many years also nobody ask me for icm ecm.. Ecu have lah..

 

Cool! So what do you think about YBR? Is it a good bike to keep? Or buy new, then few years sell, buy new again, then sell a few years etc. Or never buy second hand or what?

 

Because my bike, never spoil on road before. Never. Then when it died on expressway, i told myself, i cannot ride this bike if i got exam on that day. If the bike breakdown halfway how? Thoughts? Thanks!

[Unagi]

i have this dying cdi problem too...

the very famous p........motors unable to solve/identified this problem..keep on changing parts.....over 6 months

i went through a terrible time...the cdi is not 100% dead...it works and then when you are on the road it stalls..

then 10 min to half hr of cooling..tinkering..jump starting the bike can be started again..

this unreliable bike....really makes me very frustrated..bike towed to workshop more than 10 times..

finally the last breakdown..decided to send to another workshop...

diagnose within a week..that a dying cdi was the problem...and eversince that day..everything ok..

never visit the p.... motors again..really dissapointed..

 

you are lucky in that sense that the problem was identified and sorted out almost immediately..and you dont have to go through the agony of riding a bike that when you ride out..not sure it can come back..or when you want to ride it..it cannot be started..

 

Same thing happened to me, very frustrating. Never know when the bike is going to die on you. There was once I was planning on making a right turn at a cross junction, red light, lane 1. Just as the green light came on, engine died!

 

Had to wave to the cars behind me to overtake then slowly push my bike to the left side when it was safer. Spent half hour trying to start the bike. This was the first day I collected my bike.

 

Next day, died on the road again. Pushed about 500m to a well-known bike shop at serangoon, could not diagnose the issue. First say battery problem lah, then say engine kill switch lah. What a disgrace of a mech (He had that uncertain look on his face and was just guessing the problem without really doing anything). Never went back to that shop again.

 

Turns out that the CDI spoil. Coil was changed as well just in case. Bike runs fine now. CDI spoil the bike instantly will die? What is an ICM?

 

Depends on luck Bro... electronic stuff is hard to say. Many cases I know of, CDI failing it will still work intermittently. Maybe you weren't so lucky.

 

Edit: I meant to say, it will die because perhaps no spark or what, but you might be able to start again later on and off. But unless you can repair a failing CDI, most of the time replacing it is the best alternative.

 

Haha bro. You think? Because the truth is, i have already changed almost EVERYTHING on my bike. Since last year, same mech. I go buy the parts and get him to fix. Some cosmetic fix myself. Changed rectifier, change magnetic coil, changed ignition coil, changer starter motor, changed carburettor. So left is to change the CDI but the bike spoil before i wanted haha.

 

You buy parts ask the mech help you change, they never make noise???

 

In the old days, this brain was mechanical in nature, and I think it used transistors and mechanical points to fire the plugs. These are very unreliable because when the points wear out, your bike will be stuck on the side of the road. Nowadays in S'pore I think hard to find a vintage bike with mechanical points.

 

Since the 70s to 80s I think all bikes shift to use electronic ignition modules already (commonly called CDI I guess).

 

Reminds me of the past where we had to open the distributor cap and 'sand' the contacts! Haha..

Edited September 18, 2011 by Unagi
clarify a point

[MiddleAgedBiker]

Bro, i think you better check what you type.. I also think you read too much online.. I work in workshop for many many years also nobody ask me for icm ecm.. Ecu have lah..

 

Well I worked for an MNC writing software that controls the ECM, and it was my job to know engines. The company is #1 in sales in automotive ECMs and produces the ECMs for Harley Davidson bikes, but what do I know. I read too much from the internet.

 

Btw, ECU = Electronic Control Unit

ECM = Electronic Control Module

 

It's the same thing. But I guess it's what people ask for in shops that determines the terminology, so what do I know. I'll leave it to the real experts.

[crazydj]

most of the time replacing it is the best alternative.

 

 

When it came to my bike, i realised that replacing the parts are cheaper than repairing or trying to figure out what's wrong with it. Parts are cheap, but don't last long.

 

You buy parts ask the mech help you change, they never make noise???

 

 

This is one business strategy i learnt from my mech. If you provide good service, customers will come back, even though yours may be slightly expensive or need to wait damn long. Most of the time, my bike the parts are very easy to replace. Take less than 10 mins, unless you open engine. Also when i buy the part and get him to change for me, he also wont ask for anything, unless its really really tedious and time consuming. I also feel bad, because i want to pay for service, but in the end, we all just have a friendly chat over ice cold packet drinks haha. Its also damn ma fan if i leave my bike there for my mech to go and fetch the part from the supplier and come back and fix it. He got no time to do this kinda thing so he encourages if i know what part i want to replace, ask me to get it myself and let him fix.

 

Now this is what i call good service!

 

So far new starter motor, rectifier, cdi, ignition coil, magneto, piston and piston rings. Now if anything spoil, it most likely would be the engine or some wiring problem.

[crazydj]

I'll leave it to the real experts.

 

 

I wanna join in the fun!!!

 

Okay, my experience is in computers. 8 years fixing, modding and building desktop PCs and perhaps to a certain extent, laptops. Desktop Water cooling, Overclocking, you name it. Now abit rusty though. Other than that, fix lights, lose wiring in speakers, all the electrical appliances in the house, if spoil, blender, i will take a look at it first, then see what i can replace or repair within my capacity, if not then i will give the clearance to throw. Haha. Last time i also took D&T as well as physics so i have some knowledge of things electrical and electronic.

 

Many times, i have friends around me who look down on me, then jump to the conclusion that i am cheapskate la, asking for trouble la, but what they don't know is my history and how i love to fix things. Anyone can send to someone else to fix. But not everyone can fix it. So ya la. For my motor, i will see what i can do first. If not within my capacity, no tools, no time, no parts, no in depth knowledge, i will let my mech settle for me.

 

I have not reached the point in motorbikes like i have in computer hardware, like you tell me what's wrong, i can list out the possible faults once you tell me the symptoms.

[Unagi]

When it came to my bike, i realised that replacing the parts are cheaper than repairing or trying to figure out what's wrong with it. Parts are cheap, but don't last long.

 

 

 

 

This is one business strategy i learnt from my mech. If you provide good service, customers will come back, even though yours may be slightly expensive or need to wait damn long. Most of the time, my bike the parts are very easy to replace. Take less than 10 mins, unless you open engine. Also when i buy the part and get him to change for me, he also wont ask for anything, unless its really really tedious and time consuming. I also feel bad, because i want to pay for service, but in the end, we all just have a friendly chat over ice cold packet drinks haha. Its also damn ma fan if i leave my bike there for my mech to go and fetch the part from the supplier and come back and fix it. He got no time to do this kinda thing so he encourages if i know what part i want to replace, ask me to get it myself and let him fix.

 

Now this is what i call good service!

 

So far new starter motor, rectifier, cdi, ignition coil, magneto, piston and piston rings. Now if anything spoil, it most likely would be the engine or some wiring problem.

 

Nice... I like your mech, not calculative.

 

Well, I'm trained in automotive so most of the time I prefer to fix my bike myself. Problem is sometimes parts are hard to find, den have to go workshop buy/ask them order for me.

 

Then since I'm there, why not ask them fix it also? Since the price they quote also include labour and they won't give discount if I fix myself. I got tools but no space cos I don't own a landed property or workshop.

 

Usually I will watch and make sure they do everything nicely, if not I just go home and do it the right way myself (instead of correcting them and make things unpleasant).

 

But I always unlucky to encounter those crappy mech who dunno what they are doing then wanna drill/knock/twist/force the part in until it's bent or damage. Those shops I will blacklist. Until now haven't found any respectable shop yet...

[yinghai]

Okaes mr expertise.. Lets hope people do go around asking for icm.. The mech sure headache trying to figure out whats icm..