[Discussion] TA 200 Fuel Consumption

[allanb2]

I used to cruise at 60+kph, then I changed the drive sprocket from 13t to 14t and now cruise at 70+kph, my mpg hasn't changed at 120mpg or 42.3km on a litre. If I drove at 90kph, the engine would feel strained and so would I strained within the first pot hole I hit.

[skytng]

ok i took photos of my mileage in between 2 pumps, basically i traveled 224.1km on 5.223L of SPC 95, which makes the FC 42.9km/L.

I weigh 70+, didnt pillion in between the pumps, cruise at 90km/h

[baka88]

about 35km/ litre for me in general

[bobokw]

i ran dry after 400km with main and reserve

[ahguang]

i got only 30km/L FA. I check through this thread. It's below average FA. What can I do to improve this situation ?

[matthias76]

i got only 30km/L FA. I check through this thread. It's below average FA. What can I do to improve this situation ?

 

anything else installed on your bike, e.g. windshield, side panniers, top box?

 

Unladen weight plays an important part in the FC. Heavy riders, with pillions and all above mentioned will mean your FC number will be lower than what is mentioned here. The other thing that affects FC will be mainly mechanical reasons, e.g. rich fuel settings, chain and sprocket conditions, tires condition. dirty carb, dirty filter etc. A low FC coupled with other tell tale signs, i.e. excessive smoke from exhaust is an indication of something leaking inside the engine (gaskets failure etc). The way you ride or the conditions of traffic you are exposed to daily is another major factor. If your journeys are the long and cruising type (without stopping and waiting at traffic lights), your FC number will also lean on the higher side. If you are always revving like a F1 rider at a traffic light and always the one to burn tyre when the light turns green, you FC will most likely go down.

 

When it comes to numbers, no one can say for sure what is the standard. 30km/l is high or low? what about 29km/l? or 28km/l? how do you know for sure that was the actual FC? Most of us here don't record the trips to the details of what/who we carry or how the traffic conditions were to the dot. So it may just be a case of "agga-ration" at the end of the day.

 

I ride a 9 year old Phantom with stock parts. Before i installed a windshield, my FC was around 32ish/l. When I installed the windshield, my top speed dropped by 15km/h (from around 135 to 120) and FC dropped to about 27ish. I reckoned it was the additional drag caused by the windshield. However, i did some adjustments on the positioning of the windshield and it went back to about 32ish/l but top speed remained around 120km/h. Still I am satisfied. You can't have the cake and eat it, I guess.

[ahguang]

Thanks matthias76 for the detailed explanation.

 

1. Bike has no windshield, side panniers. Only 42L top box

 

2. I weight only 60kg, no pillions at all (P-plate, so didnt want to risk others life )

 

3. Rich fuel setting - how to check this ?

My chain, sprocket and tires are pretty new. Air filter just changed.

Have not done any carb cleaning (this is 10 years old bike which i bough 2nd hand - I believe the previous owner didnt good care of it.)

 

4. Didn't notice any excessive smoke.

 

5. I would say [60% express-way(smooth traffice) : 40% urban(with traffic lights)] ratio for condition of traffic.

Normally travelling ard 80 - 90 on expressway. Seldom rev at traffic light.

 

On top of my FC, I also find that my bike hardly has any power to rev frm 90 to 100km/h. When I am cruising at 85km/h at 2nd lane, I will pick up speed till 90km/h to standby to overtake on 1st lane - When I want to go to 1st lane to overtake, my bike take very long to rev to 100km/h - the whole engine vibrate and i feel very high RPM, but no power...

[matthias76]

Sounds bad. Phantom isn't a beast to begin with, but for it to attain 100 to 120 shouldn't be much of a problem, especially when you have described your bike to be relatively light.

 

There could be some mechanical issues here, i.e. changed sprocket sizes, carb settings. My previous phantom had a leak at the exhaust header which also contributed to lack of power, and eventually, there was a leak at the engine housing (which was traced to excessive wear/ tear inside the block).

 

Don't want to scare you, but although many here would testify to Phantom being a hardy machine, once its worn to a certain point, it like going downhill all the way, which was the reason why I scraped the old one I had. Maybe you can send it to a workshop you trust to first check whether the sprockets were changed to a different teeth count (lower teeth count 37 - 39 gives better pickup, but lower top speed), if I am correct, the original sprocket teeth is 41.

 

Check your spark plug after a ride (engine cooled first to prevent cooking your hands). If its black and sooty (black powdery surface on the tip) then the fuel air mixture is on the rich side (i.e. fuel too high, air too low). The black powder is a result of unburnt fuel from a rich fuel air mixture.

 

I can't say for sure whether your bike was the same category of my old phantom whose fate is destined for the scrapyard. Let me just share the painful story here.

 

I bought it off a online posting. Just passed my 2b and damn anxious to get a bike. Aesthetics was 6.5/10 and had tank covers, sissy bar on which i didn't thought as camouflages to flaws, until things began to break down one by one after i took over.

 

1. Speedo failed after a while. Speedo cable was worn.

2. Removed the tank cover for cleaning - realised there was a deep dent and heavy scratch and rusting on the tank.

3. There was a square cut on the right engine cover, previous owner did some form of modification to include battery enhancement and EO breather. (This was a main cause of the major failure - EO breathing means EO evaporating faster than usual, and previous owner does not religiously maintain bike)

4. Additional risers on rear exhaust (owner was tall and heavy). The result was additional strain on the roller guide which will wear off faster than usual, if a less heavy rider. The setback is also the bike leaning more on its side stand to the point of almost falling over. I didn't know until after i went to Planet Motors to weld a "high heel" onto my side stand to correct the leaning problem. EVentually, I removed the risers on the rear exhaust. It also led to the problem of adding stress to the rear wheel bearings. My rear wheel rim bearing housing became "oval" and entire rim had to be replaced.

5. Heavy duty chain for drive sprockets - may here would say otherwise, but I have my engine block innards as testament. Starting off as a noob, a "snakeoil" mechanic told me using heavy duty chain would mean less wear and tear on the chain and i would save money on the long run. Not when I saw the innards where i overhaul my engine. The heavy duty chain meant the wear would end up inside the engine parts instead where I spent as much money on repairing the inner part almost to the extent of the price which i paid for the bike itself. Nowadays, I rather use original Honda chain and sprockets. Change is more frequent, but i have the peace of mind. I don't want to overhaul my engine ever again because of a "wonderful, lasting" chain.

6. Front/ Rear brake callipers failed after few months. Cos brakes pads were always used until botak. The heat caused by metal against metal degrades the rubber components inside the calliper. It also wears the brake disc until grooves were formed, which further results in excessive brake pad consumption. Vicious cycle of brake pads wearing out even faster with each change.

7. Ignition key switch worn - my bundle of keys flew off without me knowing. Led to the problem of keyless ignition. Always forget to switch off power and battery flat. Led to the problem of starter motor wear, and battery degradation.

 

The shock you are about to hear - the bike was about 5 years old when i bought it. All these problems happened within 2 years after i took over, one after the other. I can only attribute it to the previous owner, who love modding his bike but not taking care of it. I spent a lot rectifying the bike until the point i realised its pointless. So i scrape it and bought another one. This time round, I am much more informed than last time. This bike which i bought was 9 years old, but it certainly beat the previous one I bought. Not perfect, but certainly in a condition which i will enjoy it better.

 

My advise to you now is to send your ride for a full checkup with a workshop you trust. Get it right once and for all before one failure leads to another.

Edited December 28, 2013 by matthias76

[naim]

A bike can be damn durable and reliable but it does not mean its maintenance free. Many of the problems described are either wear n tear or lack of maintenance. Fix the issues and replace all wear n tear items if u want piece of mind.

[ber]

matthias did you adjust the windshield to be a little sloping inwards to be more aero dynamic? My fuel consumption is about 30.

 

It is great that you did not give up on these bikes when you first encounted these problems. These are great bikes and I wish honda didnt discountinued it.

[ahguang]

matthias76 - What should be the colour of spark plug under normal conditions ?

 

"black and sooty - (black powdery surface on the tip) then the fuel air mixture is on the rich side (i.e. fuel too high, air too low)"

[matthias76]

matthias did you adjust the windshield to be a little sloping inwards to be more aero dynamic? My fuel consumption is about 30.

 

It is great that you did not give up on these bikes when you first encounted these problems. These are great bikes and I wish honda didnt discountinued it.

 

Yupe. I adjusted the angle to slope more, added extra rubber washers at joints, and added rubber cushions to where the metal brackets comes in contact with bike (near the front stanchions). Took a bit of trial and error each time to find the best sloping angle. No point having a shield but slope it until your face is totally exposed, right?

 

A bike can be damn durable and reliable but it does not mean its maintenance free. Many of the problems described are either wear n tear or lack of maintenance. Fix the issues and replace all wear n tear items if u want piece of mind.

 

Hi naim, I totally agree with you on this point. No bike is the world is "abuse-proof". Else the bike would cost the world or the manufacturer would bankrupt long ago. I am like many others before me who is too anxious to get a bike without proper research. If I had joined the PK forum before I bought the first phantom, I probably would have avoided buying it in the first place. Thinking on the bright side though, it gave me a lot of experience for the money I paid - which again could be free if I join PK forums earlier.

 

matthias76 - What should be the colour of spark plug under normal conditions ?

 

"black and sooty - (black powdery surface on the tip) then the fuel air mixture is on the rich side (i.e. fuel too high, air too low)"

 

Hi Ahguang, the normal colour should be a light, even shade of brown. However, if its white, and you see some melting (literally metal melting), you fuel air mixture (FAM) may be too lean (i.e. air more than fuel). There are reports of lean FAM being the cause of low power (since there is lesser fuel to drive the engine). Rich FAM may not necessarily yield higher power, since there is only so much fuel that can be used each combustion cycle to drive the cylinders which results in soot (unburnt fuel accumulating). Kopi tiam engineering would say use a even better spark plug (Denso Iridium), coupled with rich FAM to increase power. But I only have this in reply - how fast do you want to ride? Its a phantom, not a PGM IV...

 

Side track a bit, last time when there were a lot of seniors organising DIY or bikewashing sessions, its always enriching to hear from those people how to solve your bike problems firsthand. Its almost like a free mechanic session. I would say most of what I know now about the bike came from those people who graciously shared with us years back. Again, let me express my gratitude by saying thank you.

Edited December 29, 2013 by matthias76

[ber]

I bought a few plugs, and will take it out and take photo. My bike was running great when I got it but because I had to send it for inspection and had to borrow some tools at the motorshop, I asked to change spark plug and tune the carb.

 

It had backfiring when I engine brake. After tuning it could not start in the morning on first try and the backfiring is still there.

 

After that I tuned the carb myself and the backfiring is gone but it is still hard to start on first press in the morning.

 

Got a few spare plugs so that hopefully can find out what is wrong. Have got the air filter but have not got chance to change it.

[matthias76]

Backfiring is usually caused by a less efficient vacuum pump besides a overly rich FAM. Cost of a new one ranges from 65 to 80. The loud bang is the only inconvenience, I rode with loud bangs for nearly 7 years...

 

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[sawfly]

my 2cents:

 

change a new filter and sparkplug first before adjusting the carb. sometimes the filter too dirty will cause over rich condition and will go away after filter is changed. later tune carb already change to brand new filter, yr new tuning will be out of whack - then you have to retune again.

 

if poor starting due to overrich starting mixture you will hear the revs pickup after starting then drop before dying. opening abit of throttle while pressing the start button might help with cold starts if its too rich.

 

also the backfiring will go away if you close the throttle less suddenly if it is an air valve issue. usually ill just do gradual decel if the valve doesnt cut off/operate normally.

 

I bought a few plugs, and will take it out and take photo. My bike was running great when I got it but because I had to send it for inspection and had to borrow some tools at the motorshop, I asked to change spark plug and tune the carb.

 

It had backfiring when I engine brake. After tuning it could not start in the morning on first try and the backfiring is still there.

 

After that I tuned the carb myself and the backfiring is gone but it is still hard to start on first press in the morning.

 

Got a few spare plugs so that hopefully can find out what is wrong. Have got the air filter but have not got chance to change it.

[ber]

 

if poor starting due to overrich starting mixture you will hear the revs pickup after starting then drop before dying.

 

 

 

thanks, I just changed the EO, air filter and spark plug. The 800km plus old plug is black up to some of the thread but it is dry and not oily. It looked darker than the original plug. maybe it is the fuel cleaning additives I added?

 

The cold start problem is as you have discribed. So I should monitor and turn the fuel screw 1 turn clockwise?

 

I didnt know the bike got a fuel pump. I had thought it is gravity fed only.

[naim]

To be honest, spark plug reading is nt accurate at all. The indication is the last AFR mixture right before the engine shuts down. So if read online, u should do wat is called a plug chop, but nt safe to do here due to the lack of closed roads.

 

For the cold start, try turning it out abit more. Whats ur current setting? I rmb mine was ard 2.5 turns out. No problems with cold start and idles beautifully when warmed up.

[ber]

Ya, the spark plug I think I will not monitor for other thing except running to lean.

 

Maybe I should just tighten and out to 2.5. Mine now I do not know what is mine set now.

[naim]

Just tighten in all the way until it stops, then turn out 2.5 turns. Then let the engine warm up and set the idling speed. If ur jettings are stock, ur bike should start easily no matter wat the conditions.

 

If u are worried abt running lean, do wat i did. I increased the main jet size and added washer to the needle to increase fuel. FC will go down slightly but bike becomes much nicer to ride, especially with better pull throughout the rev range.

[matthias76]

Saw an interesting poster at the shop I bought my helmet. Shop owner was kind enough to let me take pictures of it. Its about how sparkplugs look like in different firing conditions.

 

[matthias76]

repeated post, mod please delete. Thanks.

[ber]

Thanks Naim, will do the turn。

 

Is the petrol prices up? on new year day I pumped at esso 95 it was 2.20 before discount? Used to be 2.17.

[calico]

yup 95 is 2.20 now.. i run my phantom at 35km/l.. top up abt once in 4 days.. usually top up around 7 litres

[jtzx]

Ta200 pump 92 will do. Thailand petrol ratings quite bad. So 95 is consider top grade already

 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[matthias76]

I tried 15w60. Turned out FC dropped to 31ish from 33ish/litre. No marked improvement on all other aspects of riding. Will go back to 15w50 after 1500km.

 

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk