Harley Riders gather

[Terrible One]

actually i dun really understand why u keep saying i dont get what you are saying.

 

what i;m telling u is the term u are using is not correct and there are some minor errors in your understanding of the rake and trail of a bike which is why i corrected u...

 

from what info i have gathered form my research, angled forks are called raked forks... forks which are distanced further away from the neck is termed having an offset difference ... jus like how usually custom triple trees would have descriptions like something like "a raked triple tree with a 5 degree rake angle and 2inch offset" 5 degree refers to how much more degrees it will add to your neck angle and the 2 inch offset refers to how far your forks will protrude from the neck when viewed from the top of the clamp. so your understandig of "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase" is incorrect or incomplete

 

most raked trees alter only the fork rake angle and leave the fork offset stock.. of cos there are variations such that both the offset and rake angle gets altered. raking a tree also has 2 variations where one construction is to rake the stem area or milling the holes of the fork clamps at an angle so that the forks get clamped slightly slanted forward.

 

its ok. i'll wait for your pics.. btw.. if u are comparing springer forks with telescopic forks then thats the wrong way to go also... el toro was using a springer fork and the massive offset u were talking about came from the rockers i was using... there was no rake involved in the construction of that springer simply bcos i used back the original triple trees.

if u did your research...then you will know that though slightly different, its a different set of calculations and mechanics we are talking about between a springer fork and a conventional telescopic fork

 

 

Ok first point to clear is "offset is the distance from the steering axle to the fork" is wrong.. Take a Honda wave, if u were to measure the offset from the center of the frame head tube and center of the fork den the measurement will be wrong. Cos The axle doesn't sits in the middle of the fork. In the case of raked trees, the fork is slanted, which part of the for to measure? So it the center of the head tube to the front wheel axle.

 

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/Riotbike/Offset.jpg

 

As for raked trees, You mentioned "forks do get pushed forwards more when compared to normal trees." Wouldn't that increase the offset like I said?

 

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/Riotbike/Rakedtrees.jpg

 

gotta mentioned that for all examples,the fork length are corrected so that the bike remains level.

 

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/Riotbike/Comparison.jpg

 

if you're gonna use a regular 3-trees with more offset, you can get the same trail minus the slanted fork look. Fork A using raked trees and fork B with increased offset. Tho they have the same trail,shock absorption characteristics for both setup will be different,but that's not what we're talking about here.

 

 

 

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/Riotbike/1.jpg

As for the mentioned about your Springer fork, I'm just using it as an example for the about. Don't have to mention the rocker or the mechanism of the springer fork,we're just talking about the axle position. Wouldn't the offset be comparable with one fitted with raked trees? The bike geometry varies differently when compressed for Springer and Telescopic forks,but that's another topic. I'm just talking about offset so only the axle position at rest matters for now.

 

So if I can quote myself "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase"

 

All those pictures above have the same headtube rake angle. The important part is that you gonna adjust the fork length so that the frame remains level. Wether how slanted the fork looks or how long the rockers are on a Springer fork, it's the axle position that matters. It's all just simple trigonometry,not rocket science

[X-ilED]

Ok first point to clear is "offset is the distance from the steering axle to the fork" is wrong.. Take a Honda wave, if u were to measure the offset from the center of the frame head tube and center of the fork den the measurement will be wrong. Cos The axle doesn't sits in the middle of the fork. In the case of raked trees, the fork is slanted, which part of the for to measure? So it the center of the head tube to the front wheel axle.

 

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/Riotbike/Offset.jpg

 

As for raked trees, You mentioned "forks do get pushed forwards more when compared to normal trees." Wouldn't that increase the offset like I said?

 

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/Riotbike/Rakedtrees.jpg

 

gotta mentioned that for all examples,the fork length are corrected so that the bike remains level.

 

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/Riotbike/Comparison.jpg

 

if you're gonna use a regular 3-trees with more offset, you can get the same trail minus the slanted fork look. Fork A using raked trees and fork B with increased offset. Tho they have the same trail,shock absorption characteristics for both setup will be different,but that's not what we're talking about here.

 

 

 

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/Riotbike/1.jpg

As for the mentioned about your Springer fork, I'm just using it as an example for the about. Don't have to mention the rocker or the mechanism of the springer fork,we're just talking about the axle position. Wouldn't the offset be comparable with one fitted with raked trees? The bike geometry varies differently when compressed for Springer and Telescopic forks,but that's another topic. I'm just talking about offset so only the axle position at rest matters for now.

 

So if I can quote myself "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase"

 

All those pictures above have the same headtube rake angle. The important part is that you gonna adjust the fork length so that the frame remains level. Wether how slanted the fork looks or how long the rockers are on a Springer fork, it's the axle position that matters. It's all just simple trigonometry,not rocket science

 

 

First off, lets clear up a few things. terms and jargons are used for a reason and the topic here was the use of "raked triple trees". why is your statement that "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase" is not entirely correct. let me share with you why. btw the honda wave example is prolly the few variations in a bike fork. as far as i know most harleys have their wheel axles centered in a fork and most raked trees are made for harleys or cruisers in general.. so unless this feature is found on MOST bikes.. then yes.. i'll admit that offset distance is not from the steering stem to the fork. and did you ever wonder if this could be the manufacturers attempt to correct an incorrect trail? from an efficiency point of view, forks with centered axles are by far easier to calculate that those with and axle offset... agree?

 

 

once again, topic was on the triple tree and how will it affect the bike. you did not specify what offset u were talking about. in the context of a triple tree, THIS is the offset distance - refer to the attachment. the distance between the centre of the steering stem and the centre of the fork viewed from the top view. this offset distance also affects the trail of a bike. and the analogy can be compared to springer fork rockers. alterations to this dimension will cause the fork to move forwards or backwards which affects the trail.

 

so your sentence of "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase".. is it this offset u are talking about? i know u meant the wheel.. but does it sound confusing to u now that u know this dimension is refered to as the fork "offset" in a triple tree? which is why i said initially that it might be misleading to others. if u ask ppl with experience in building raked trees.. their response would most likely be mine.. "how can a raked tree alter the offset distance unless it was purposely machined in this way?"

 

when describing raked forks.. most ppl dun bring in "wheel offset" as a definate form or measurement simply bcos its a relative figure. u will usually see ppl stating the rake angle and the trail. Because.....it is possible for me to maintain the same wheelbase with a raked triple right? As u said fork length can be altered. so if the same wheelbase is maintained.. where is the offset of the wheel may i ask? springers are different bcos thats the term u use to describe the rockers. again bro. its the specifics

 

Raking a fork is still used to describe forks which is having their angles altered cos an angle change is an angle change wether u wanna use the term or not.

 

raked trees DO alter the angle of the fork. u have to agree on this right? so lets go back to your statement "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase" is only partially correct bcos :

 

"raked trees do not alter the NECK rake angle.. but it alters the FORK rake angle relative to the neck rake angle. The rake angle of the bike changes in this sense. Offset of the wheel is relative to the fork length while it generally increases, its not always so. Offset in the trees are not changed unless otherwise machined"

 

its really interesting to know someone else is reading up. your concept of rake and trail calculations is correct and i belive alot groan when presented with geometry. but the more u get into something the more these terms should matter to you cos you are no longer a layman. surgeons want scapels from their assistants.. you dont hear them asking for a small thin knife with a small blade tip and sharp sharp wan.. lol. havent got the chance to meet u up for kopi yet. we got alot of conversation topics to talk about.

Edited August 24, 2009 by X-ilED

[Terrible One]

First off, lets clear up a few things. terms and jargons are used for a reason and the topic here was the use of "raked triple trees". why is your statement that "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase" is not entirely correct. let me share with you why. btw the honda wave example is prolly the few variations in a bike fork. as far as i know most harleys have their wheel axles centered in a fork and most raked trees are made for harleys or cruisers in general.. so unless this feature is found on MOST bikes.. then yes.. i'll admit that offset distance is not from the steering stem to the fork. and did you ever wonder if this could be the manufacturers attempt to correct an incorrect trail? from an efficiency point of view, forks with centered axles are by far easier to calculate that those with and axle offset... agree?

 

 

I belive forks like the Honda Wave are ment to provide the triple trees with more clearence for the bodywork or watever. Cos some motorcross bikes have their front axle behide the fork center so that they can give the triple trees more offset therefore increasing the steering angle that's much needed in morotcross. But watever it is,only the designer/engineer knows.

 

once again, topic was on the triple tree and how will it affect the bike. you did not specify what offset u were talking about. in the context of a triple tree, THIS is the offset distance - refer to the attachment. the distance between the centre of the steering stem and the centre of the fork viewed from the top view. this offset distance also affects the trail of a bike. and the analogy can be compared to springer fork rockers. alterations to this dimension will cause the fork to move forwards or backwards which affects the trail.

 

 

As above, the offset is measured from the center of the steering stem to front axle. So if u wan "X" offset, u gotta take the fork you are using into consideration. For this case alteration of fork lenght will only change the trail,not offset.

 

so your sentence of "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase".. is it this offset u are talking about? i know u meant the wheel.. but does it sound confusing to u now that u know this dimension is refered to as the fork "offset" in a triple tree? which is why i said initially that it might be misleading to others. if u ask ppl with experience in building raked trees.. their response would most likely be mine.. "how can a raked tree alter the offset distance unless it was purposely machined in this way?"

 

Ok so it's my poor engrish.. It should be "Raked trees will not actually increase the steering rake,but the offset will increase".. I'll answer "how can a raked tree alter the offset distance unless it was purposely machined in this way?" below

when describing raked forks.. most ppl dun bring in "wheel offset" as a definate form or measurement simply bcos its a relative figure. u will usually see ppl stating the rake angle and the trail. Because.....it is possible for me to maintain the same wheelbase with a raked triple right? As u said fork length can be altered. so if the same wheelbase is maintained.. where is the offset of the wheel may i ask? springers are different bcos thats the term u use to describe the rockers. again bro. its the specifics

 

Most ppl dun bring really care about how much offset it has cos ppl who do it are mainly in for the looks only. What I wanna bring across is that diff offset will affect you bike's handling in a big way. It is posible for you to achive the same wheelbase,but to get the same wheelbase your ride height might be different already (which might be a good this for he person who wanna lower the front end). On raked trees, you trail,wheelbase and offset will increase with the length of the fork. yes you can machine a set of raked trees and match it with the correct fork length to achive the exact same ride height and wheel offset as stock. But again I haven't come across aftermarket ones that does that. Standard forks you extend how much the offset will still be unchanged.

 

Raking a fork is still used to describe forks which is having their angles altered cos an angle change is an angle change wether u wanna use the term or not.

 

raked trees DO alter the angle of the fork. u have to agree on this right? so lets go back to your statement "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase" is only partially correct bcos :

 

"raked trees do not alter the NECK rake angle.. but it alters the FORK rake angle relative to the neck rake angle. The rake angle of the bike changes in this sense. Offset of the wheel is relative to the fork length while it generally increases, its not always so. Offset in the trees are not changed unless otherwise machined"

 

 

Still,the rake angle of the bike changes in no sense. The fork just becomes more slanted. It just create the illusion. The changes again is the increase of the offset. If u can understand that the offset of the wheel is relative of the fork length den "Offset in the trees are not changed unless otherwise machined" makes no sense. Becos the offset of the top and bottom of raked trees are diff in the the first place. The actual offset is determined by what you already said.

its really interesting to know someone else is reading up. your concept of rake and trail calculations is correct and i belive alot groan when presented with geometry. but the more u get into something the more these terms should matter to you cos you are no longer a layman. surgeons want scapels from their assistants.. you dont hear them asking for a small thin knife with a small blade tip and sharp sharp wan.. lol. havent got the chance to meet u up for kopi yet. we got alot of conversation topics to talk about.

 

 

No time for kopi yet nowadays leh. Haven't got much time to work on my own bike also. Cut my finger in an industrail accident 2 weeks ago,just finished fabricating parts of my rear signal/tail lights mount during lunch break.. See tommoro can eat snake and get someone to weld it on or not. Need to finish my half done rear fender also.

[X-ilED]

First off, lets clear up a few things. terms and jargons are used for a reason and the topic here was the use of "raked triple trees". why is your statement that "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase" is not entirely correct. let me share with you why. btw the honda wave example is prolly the few variations in a bike fork. as far as i know most harleys have their wheel axles centered in a fork and most raked trees are made for harleys or cruisers in general.. so unless this feature is found on MOST bikes.. then yes.. i'll admit that offset distance is not from the steering stem to the fork. and did you ever wonder if this could be the manufacturers attempt to correct an incorrect trail? from an efficiency point of view, forks with centered axles are by far easier to calculate that those with and axle offset... agree?

 

 

I belive forks like the Honda Wave are ment to provide the triple trees with more clearence for the bodywork or watever. Cos some motorcross bikes have their front axle behide the fork center so that they can give the triple trees more offset therefore increasing the steering angle that's much needed in morotcross. But watever it is,only the designer/engineer knows.

 

once again, topic was on the triple tree and how will it affect the bike. you did not specify what offset u were talking about. in the context of a triple tree, THIS is the offset distance - refer to the attachment. the distance between the centre of the steering stem and the centre of the fork viewed from the top view. this offset distance also affects the trail of a bike. and the analogy can be compared to springer fork rockers. alterations to this dimension will cause the fork to move forwards or backwards which affects the trail.

 

 

As above, the offset is measured from the center of the steering stem to front axle. So if u wan "X" offset, u gotta take the fork you are using into consideration. For this case alteration of fork lenght will only change the trail,not offset.

 

so your sentence of "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase".. is it this offset u are talking about? i know u meant the wheel.. but does it sound confusing to u now that u know this dimension is refered to as the fork "offset" in a triple tree? which is why i said initially that it might be misleading to others. if u ask ppl with experience in building raked trees.. their response would most likely be mine.. "how can a raked tree alter the offset distance unless it was purposely machined in this way?"

 

Ok so it's my poor engrish.. It should be "Raked trees will not actually increase the steering rake,but the offset will increase".. I'll answer "how can a raked tree alter the offset distance unless it was purposely machined in this way?" below

when describing raked forks.. most ppl dun bring in "wheel offset" as a definate form or measurement simply bcos its a relative figure. u will usually see ppl stating the rake angle and the trail. Because.....it is possible for me to maintain the same wheelbase with a raked triple right? As u said fork length can be altered. so if the same wheelbase is maintained.. where is the offset of the wheel may i ask? springers are different bcos thats the term u use to describe the rockers. again bro. its the specifics

 

Most ppl dun bring really care about how much offset it has cos ppl who do it are mainly in for the looks only. What I wanna bring across is that diff offset will affect you bike's handling in a big way. It is posible for you to achive the same wheelbase,but to get the same wheelbase your ride height might be different already (which might be a good this for he person who wanna lower the front end). On raked trees, you trail,wheelbase and offset will increase with the length of the fork. yes you can machine a set of raked trees and match it with the correct fork length to achive the exact same ride height and wheel offset as stock. But again I haven't come across aftermarket ones that does that. Standard forks you extend how much the offset will still be unchanged.

 

Raking a fork is still used to describe forks which is having their angles altered cos an angle change is an angle change wether u wanna use the term or not.

 

raked trees DO alter the angle of the fork. u have to agree on this right? so lets go back to your statement "Raked trees will not actually increase the rake,but the offset will increase" is only partially correct bcos :

 

"raked trees do not alter the NECK rake angle.. but it alters the FORK rake angle relative to the neck rake angle. The rake angle of the bike changes in this sense. Offset of the wheel is relative to the fork length while it generally increases, its not always so. Offset in the trees are not changed unless otherwise machined"

 

 

Still,the rake angle of the bike changes in no sense. The fork just becomes more slanted. It just create the illusion. The changes again is the increase of the offset. If u can understand that the offset of the wheel is relative of the fork length den "Offset in the trees are not changed unless otherwise machined" makes no sense. Becos the offset of the top and bottom of raked trees are diff in the the first place. The actual offset is determined by what you already said.

 

its really interesting to know someone else is reading up. your concept of rake and trail calculations is correct and i belive alot groan when presented with geometry. but the more u get into something the more these terms should matter to you cos you are no longer a layman. surgeons want scapels from their assistants.. you dont hear them asking for a small thin knife with a small blade tip and sharp sharp wan.. lol. havent got the chance to meet u up for kopi yet. we got alot of conversation topics to talk about.

 

 

No time for kopi yet nowadays leh. Haven't got much time to work on my own bike also. Cut my finger in an industrail accident 2 weeks ago,just finished fabricating parts of my rear signal/tail lights mount during lunch break.. See tommoro can eat snake and get someone to weld it on or not. Need to finish my half done rear fender also.

 

 

 

are u sure u actually understood what i wrote? haha i was infact commenting on your use of terms and jargons.. i know the working mechanics of rake and trail so u dun have to re write so many same things.

 

actually.. i really think its no point giong any further... let the readers go decide who makes more sense. haha raked trees are called raked trees for a reason.. and they primarily change the rake angle of the FORK... the change in the "offset" of the wheel is caused by the change in the rake angle of the fork which was in turn affected by the raked trees. i nv said the rake angle of the neck (or bike rake angle if thats the term that u understand by) changed. wat i said was that the FORK rake angle changed. if even after that u wanna argue that rake angle,no matter which portion, doesnt change then its ok, by all means believe in what u belive in haha.

 

hope you recover fast. i wanna see your fender too!

[kmax]

anyone wanna go for kopi.. or ride around somewhere...

[yohji]

anyone wanna go for kopi.. or ride around somewhere...

 

 

Can wait longer abit? My bike haven't arrive leh heehee. I'll feel out of place if I ride my Triumph to meet you guys

 

But if REALLY want to meet, we all can go RailMall Ah Mei Cafe. Parking is free and easy for bikes.

[ugly]

just a thought. does anyone want to trade their brawler seats to a sidekick i think? I dont pillion so would rather have a solo seat.

 

Pictures of seat are here

 

http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251137&highlight=sportster

[yohji]

just a thought. does anyone want to trade their brawler seats to a sidekick i think? I dont pillion so would rather have a solo seat.

 

Pictures of seat are here

 

http://www.singaporebikes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251137&highlight=sportster

 

 

Hey I am considering getting the Sidekick but my bike has not arrived yet. Are you able to hold on to the seat for like 1-2 months? But sorry I also can't promise that I will buy the seat from you. But I atleast need to see how it will look on my bike first.

[plasticblackspecs]

hahaha. Kmax also dun ride Harley so it's ok. I love Railmall. Pity everyone else is too lazy to go there. Wanna go LC instead?

[maxxmadness]

Can wait longer abit? My bike haven't arrive leh heehee. I'll feel out of place if I ride my Triumph to meet you guys

 

But if REALLY want to meet, we all can go RailMall Ah Mei Cafe. Parking is free and easy for bikes.

 

we dont become friends because we ride the same brand or model of bikes, we became friends because we have the same interest or passion, bikes..

[plasticblackspecs]

but..but...but...I never see u on fridays anymore ley.

[maxxmadness]

but..but...but...I never see u on fridays anymore ley.

 

...chey...busy lah

[plasticblackspecs]

Online now means not busy tonight right? LC foodcourt tonight at 1030pm

[maxxmadness]

Online now means not busy tonight right? LC foodcourt tonight at 1030pm

 

online at this time means working night shift...camping overnight at changi airport...

 

windbreaker...checked!

sleeping bag...checked!

alarm set...checked!

[plasticblackspecs]

Sneak out for supper. Ride really fast out then ride really fast back.

[maxxmadness]

hungry ghost month dont ride too fast but ride safe...

how about coming to budget terminal i treat you to budget meal...

[plasticblackspecs]

Budget nia? Cheyy....

[maxxmadness]

budget terminal only has hanis or mcdonalds...your choice...anyway i am going there for supper

[yohji]

hahaha. Kmax also dun ride Harley so it's ok. I love Railmall. Pity everyone else is too lazy to go there. Wanna go LC instead?

 

How come lazy to go there .. too far uh? Where is LC??

 

 

we dont become friends because we ride the same brand or model of bikes, we became friends because we have the same interest or passion, bikes..

 

That's true. But it's better to come to a HD meetup with a HD mah (if possible) ...

[plasticblackspecs]

Some stay east la. Far east. It's at Tanjong Katong road there

[Don Juan]

I have a Dyna and lowered the front and rear by 1". I went with the Progressive 412 on the rear and progressive lowered front springs on the front. The front is basically a spring and PCV pipe which you cut to length. I could have lived with just doing the back. The cost wasnt too bad, I ordered from Eastern Performance (or can find it on EBAY) and think it was less than S$300 shipped. You do not need to replace the stand, it just sits a little more upright so have to be careful when parking on a hill. Or you can have a shop heat it up and rebend it for a lot less.

 

It looks good, but you suffer in suspension as losing 1 inch of travel, so its a much rougher ride. When I go up the NS highway, the stretch between Pagoh and Malacca can bounce me off my seat if not awares

 

 

I have lowered the back by 1.75 inches and am contemplating about doing an inch at the front. Currently, i have to go slow on humps, if not a graaaakkk..... sound would be heard. Maybe we could meet up some day when they have the forum meet up and i can take a look at how the Dyna looks like when it is low....

[Don Juan]

Some stay east la. Far east. It's at Tanjong Katong road there

 

 

Its at the old TKGS rite? I used to study nearby....

[maxxmadness]

I have lowered the back by 1.75 inches and am contemplating about doing an inch at the front. Currently, i have to go slow on humps, if not a graaaakkk..... sound would be heard. Maybe we could meet up some day when they have the forum meet up and i can take a look at how the Dyna looks like when it is low....

 

i have dropped mine from the stock 13.5inch to 11inch...going msia is out for me cause i dont think i can clear those humps at the both customs.

[maxxmadness]

Its at the old TKGS rite? I used to study nearby....

 

no it the old tanjong katong technical school

[Don Juan]

i have dropped mine from the stock 13.5inch to 11inch...going msia is out for me cause i dont think i can clear those humps at the both customs.

 

 

That's 2.5 inches off.... i'm sure you have problem with the local humps....