Non PSB approved helmets

[Raptor]

IMHO.. for sake of myself and my loved ones...it is my duty to protect myself with the best safety gear.. regardless of whether it is legal or not or whether the authorities like it or not.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Raptor

[trucker]

just asking, DOT approved helmets recognised in singapore..??

[ulysses_sc]

just asking, DOT approved helmets recognised in singapore..??

 

No. Not DOT, not SNELL, not ECE. Only Ah Gong's elite PSB sticker counts.

[fatboypin]

I think (and hope) that there will be a change in the regulations re non-PSB approved helmets.

[DeusExMachina]

Fat chance. As long as PSB makes $, nothing else matters.

Personally, fucck PSB. I'll go with DOT/SNELL anytime.

[Jehuty]

DOT and SNELL safer la, I've seen the cheapest PSB approved helmets, they are cheap **** as in bad build quality, not saying which brand but still PSB approved. Most DOT/SNELL approved ones are higher end brands. Besides, the authorities here exist for wayang and ripping money off you, its not their fault that the higher ups are fcuked up.

 

They should be spending more time stopping dangerous drivers, riders and fixing the bad state of our roads are now than samaning people for illegal mods, mods don't kill, they are just noisy, if don't like noisy then ban getais. See the double standards?

[SgtClaymore]

If it ain't Dot then it's not for me!!!

[fatboypin]

Just occurred to me. How Long should it be before we replace our helmets even though still in good condition? The material supposedly degrades over time and subject to wear and tear and weather.

[velocity325]

Frankly speeding, after getting my non-psb approved helmet, i found out something..

 

D-ring=PSB=More Expensive[Due to the test, tax, Blahh , blahh]

Click & Go=Dot,Snell and others..

 

Price Difference,

168/218..extra 50..Carbeg Konda Full Face Flip Up..

 

not talking about those watermelon design helmet or cartoon printed cause that won't protect you..it cant even withstand a waistline drop..

[fatboypin]

where did u get the caberg? 168 is a good price for a flip up.

 

Frankly speeding, after getting my non-psb approved helmet, i found out something..

 

D-ring=PSB=More Expensive[Due to the test, tax, Blahh , blahh]

Click & Go=Dot,Snell and others..

 

Price Difference,

168/218..extra 50..Carbeg Konda Full Face Flip Up..

 

not talking about those watermelon design helmet or cartoon printed cause that won't protect you..it cant even withstand a waistline drop..

[Max Revson]

Just outta curiosity, does anyone know what the PSB test procedure for helmets is?

[velocity325]

where did u get the caberg? 168 is a good price for a flip up.

 

ahh boii, woodlands 1a..google it..kinda famous..provide free D..but go down better, can see others..plus to confirm size..

[velocity325]

Just outta curiosity, does anyone know what the PSB test procedure for helmets is?

 

info also from helmet boy website..

 

http://www.helmetboys.com/pages/Singapore-Motorcycle-Helmet-Safety-Standard-PSB-Test.html

[Max Revson]

Thanks mate for the heads-up.

 

[h=2]What does PSB safety tests consist of?[/h] TUV SUD PSB measure a motorcycle helmet’s ability to absorb or dissipate impact forces from reaching the rider's head.

 

Elements of a motorcycle helmet that are tested:

 

 

• protective padding material : expanded polystyrene (EPS) foam liner which resembles styrofoam
  
• motorcycle shell structural integrity
  
• motorcycle helmet visor
  
• the effectiveness of the retention system that keeps the helmet on the head
  

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't state specifics. I'm beginning to wonder whether there is any test methodology developed by PSB itself or does it simply look at the tests done under DOT, ECE, SNELL, etc regulations and sign-off on them as being approved for Singapore?

[velocity325]

i believe they crashed the helmet..

[rhema83]

The Traffic Police has replied my email on allowing non-PSB-approved helmets. The short answer is NO. However, one interesting snippet is that they are going to review the SS9, which stipulates the tests that helmets must pass to obtain the PSB label. I hope the industry groups will lobby for adopting international standards and also for reducing the number of helmets required for destructive testing.

 

Dear Mr XXXXX,

 

Thank you for your email.

 

2 There is currently no unified international safety-standard governing body. Various countries, including Singapore, adopt their own safety standards in line with safety standards that suit the operating environment which differs from country to country. For example, US adopts their DOT (FMVSS) standard, Europe adopts their UN ECE R22 standard, while Malaysia uses their MS 1:1996 standards and Thailand follows the Thailand Industrial Standards (TISI) for motorcycle helmets. Traffic Police have no control over the accreditation process of helmet factories overseas, all imported helmets are required to undergo batch testing by TUV SUD PSB to ensure that they comply with the requirements of the SS:9 standard. This ensures that the helmets brought into Singapore provide adequate protection to its users and safety of riders in Singapore are not compromised.

 

3 Nonetheless, I am pleased to inform you that Traffic Police, with the relevant stakeholders, are currently conducting a review on the SS:9. Public consultation for the proposed changes will likely be out later this year.

 

Best regards.

 

Chan Lai Har (Ms)

Asst.Service Quality Officer

Traffic Police Department | Singapore Police Force

E-mail: spf feedback [email protected]

Edited February 8, 2013 by rhema83

[bruce71]

The Traffic Police has replied my email on allowing non-PSB-approved helmets. The short answer is NO. However, one interesting snippet is that they are going to review the SS9, which stipulates the tests that helmets must pass to obtain the PSB label. I hope the industry groups will lobby for adopting international standards and also for reducing the number of helmets required for destructive testing.

 

i dunno if i will be flamed or not but i take a different stand. i think the present system works fine ( i have no links or benefit monetary from this, i no sell helmets or work in PSB )

 

i think we no need so fussy. i believed most authorities won't fine you cause your expensive Arai or other expensive branded helmets got no PSB. so most guys are free to wear them if they want to. i think they just assumed that such high end expensive brands should be able to meet safety standards. at least i hope so after paying so much for them.

 

 

i think we riders got to give more credit to PSB. i believed their intention is not to penalise riders who can afford the higher end helmets but to ensure that cheaper helmets meet minimum standards, with the intention to protect riders like me who buy them.

 

i read up on them & i think the sg PSB tests are just as good as ( ie. actually same same ) international standards. sometimes just because it is foreign, doesn't mean they are superior or we are inferior.

 

i know that with the present system, high priced helmets may not be sent for testing, but on the other hand this does not prevent buyers from buying them cause they choose to trust these established brands. again, nothing wrong with that, & the authorities just relax a bit cause they also no stupid.

 

but as a buyer of less established brands, i take comfort in the fact these cheaper brands with PSB do have passed international safety standards. in fact, i loved the fact that they are BATCH TESTED.

 

nothing could be more vigourous than that.

 

in fact, iirc DOT has no testing one, SNELL not sure if they are batch tested. maybe in usa ( which i doubt so but i give them the benefit of the doubt ) but what about the ones sold here?

 

in case i kanna misunderstood again, i of course not saying PSB is better than them, i am saying just let live for now. you want to buy not batch tested expensive ones cause you believed they are safer or better, u are free to do so. on the other hand, guys like me prefer that our helmets are batch tested to meet minimum standards. i get the assurance from the present system, what is wrong?

 

on what hand, some like to complain that PSB do not meet international standards ( i am not sure about that ) ie. we need to have higher standards like those higher priced brands.

 

yet on the other hand, they want less vigourous ( ie. less ones used for batch testing ) tests so that dealers will want to sent the expensive ones for testing cause their losses will be reduced.

 

no offence, but that sounds contradictory to me. Peace.

Edited February 11, 2013 by bruce71

[mechwira]

in fact, irrc DOT has no testing one, SNELL not sure if they are batched tested. maybe in usa but what about the ones sold here?

 

in case i kanna misunderstood again, i of course not saying PSB is better than them, i am saying just let live for now. you want to buy not batch tested expensive ones cause you believed they are safer or better, u are free to do so. on the other hand, guys like me prefer that our helmets are batch tested to meet minimum standards. i get the assurance from the present system, what is wrong?

 

SNELL makes the helmet manufacturer pay them the cost of randomly buying the helmets off random shelves in the country, and these helmets are then tested by SNELL. the process is repeated for re-certification. and they don't test country by country, as long as its the exact same model.

 

DOT is the stupid one. the manufacturer themselves submit documents to prove they tested their own helmets to meet the DOT requirements. the DOT authorities only check this paperwork in order, and gives the DOT sticker.

 

for the record, i not against PSB either. my old father riding his phantom would never pay more than a hundred bucks for a helmet, and forget about full face. if it weren't for PSB sticker, goodness knows wat stupid helmet he'd buy. luckily he makes sure the helmet he buys has PSB. although he does it to avoid fine rather than safety, at least i know the helmet he wears has some safety testing.

 

but i'm asking for a compromise. if a distributor properly submits documentation proving a batch of helmets is SNELL or ECE certified, it should automatically get PSB. everybody's happy.

[bruce71]

The Traffic Police has replied my email on allowing non-PSB-approved helmets. The short answer is NO. However, one interesting snippet is that they are going to review the SS9, which stipulates the tests that helmets must pass to obtain the PSB label. I hope the industry groups will lobby for adopting international standards and also for reducing the number of helmets required for destructive testing.

 

SNELL makes the helmet manufacturer pay them the cost of randomly buying the helmets off random shelves in the country, and these helmets are then tested by SNELL. the process is repeated for re-certification. and they don't test country by country, as long as its the exact same model.

 

DOT is the stupid one. the manufacturer themselves submit documents to prove they tested their own helmets to meet the DOT requirements. the DOT authorities only check this paperwork in order, and gives the DOT sticker.

 

for the record, i not against PSB either. my old father riding his phantom would never pay more than a hundred bucks for a helmet, and forget about full face. if it weren't for PSB sticker, goodness knows wat stupid helmet he'd buy. luckily he makes sure the helmet he buys has PSB. although he does it to avoid fine rather than safety, at least i know the helmet he wears has some safety testing.

 

but i'm asking for a compromise. if a distributor properly submits documentation proving a batch of helmets is SNELL or ECE certified, it should automatically get PSB. everybody's happy.

 

+1! support!

 

but i was referring to an above post which sounds contradictory. ( ie. reducing the numbers & yet ask for 'better' standards at the same time )

 

why i think PSB is under-rated is nobody can point out as a fact that their tests are not 'up to international standards'. anybody who wants to convince me that better give evidence to back it up.

 

however, i do know that PSB only pass by batch, not by model or brand. ie. the same brand or model that passed PSB now may not pass later with a different batch imported later. i dunno about others, but short pf INCREASING the numbers used for every batch sent for testing ( ie. more costly & probably impractical ), i dunno how it can get any tighter than that. right?

[CSV]

what about SHARP ratings?

 

i use that as a rough gauge as well.

 

The hjc i wanted was a 2 star only, so i went for the Shark which was a 4 star. the test also seems quite vigorous.

[bruce71]

SNELL makes the helmet manufacturer pay them the cost of randomly buying the helmets off random shelves in the country, and these helmets are then tested by SNELL. the process is repeated for re-certification. and they don't test country by country, as long as its the exact same model.

 

DOT is the stupid one. the manufacturer themselves submit documents to prove they tested their own helmets to meet the DOT requirements. the DOT authorities only check this paperwork in order, and gives the DOT sticker.

 

...

 

but i'm asking for a compromise. if a distributor properly submits documentation proving a batch of helmets is SNELL or ECE certified, it should automatically get PSB. everybody's happy.

 

another "what do you think?" reply...

 

DOT? see above...ie. what do you think? DOT good meh??? so many think ang mo tua ki?

 

SNELL? see above...ie. take a few from the shelves & test. better but only a few from same model. no batch testing. again..."what do you think?"

 

SHARP?...quoted "rating system that rates the helmets found for sale in the UK."...i dunno anything more than that but i suspect they use a very similar system to the SNELL, take a few off the shelves & test.

 

ECE?...this one is like better, why? cause European Commission that requires mandatory batch testing of helmets in the factories before They are released to the public. +1! support.

but got catch. no, it's 2 catch.

 

1) i think they only test those made in europe. i don't think they will fly to China/ Japan to test every single batch, too impractical right?

 

2) even when in the europe factory, got no problem, but after shipping to sg, anyone can say 100% no damage in the shipping process? not likely but no guareentee?

 

actually imho ECE not bad, SHARP got rating system some more...good on paper but more relevant if you buy from Europe/UK.

 

US so big. i doubt SNELL go every single city in US to buy helmets off the shelves. maybe only buy a few from a few major cities. no care about those buy from smaller cities/towns, let alone those that Japan export into a red dot, SG.

 

3) PSB is take a percentage ( more shipped in, more tested ) of every consignment to test. pass , give sticker. next consignment say if your china factory cut corner or maybe helmets damaged in the shipping process, SG importer dunno or try to play punk, also no use. new consignment , test again. if fail, this whole consignment fail. distributor LLST, lose money.

BUT consumer's interest is protected.

 

i dunno about you, i pay so little for PSB helmets but this is what they do for me. i jin kam xia. no play play.

 

"what do you think?"

 

sometimes, not always ang mo tua ki. Peace.

Edited February 13, 2013 by bruce71

[bruce71]

today 1st day, lim peh jin eng so here comes

"what do you think?" part 2:-

 

SNELL is foundation, used it's own cashflow to buy helmets & use own cashflow to test them & hope manufacturers compensate them later. if the tests show fail, where can they seek compensation?

 

even if pass, if they stupidly buy 1000 helmets to test ( & cost them even more $ to test ), what happens when manufacturers refuse to reimburse them for the expenses? if i am Arai, you now tell me have to pay you so much just because you suka suka buy so many. my problem, is it? No SNELL, no have lah, lim peh no care cause US no law say must have SNELL then can sell or riders must use SNELL, lim peh continue to sell, SNELL LLST!

 

so SNELL no stupid, buy a few test, pass & very sure that Manufacturers are willing to pay them to get the certification, it is good for their business so should be ok! everybody wins!

 

 

back in sg, Lim Peh decide to import some from China, put a brand 'Lim Jin Kiang' ( me very smart ) & let PSB test. PSB tell me, you have to pay me for testing first, lim peh LLST pay cause if no pay, lim peh cannot sell as SG riders must have PSB, so lim peh pay.

 

Pass already, PSB sticker got! hurray, lim peh sell make money & import second consignment from China. but knn this China factory play me out & give me no QC one, come to sg, PSB take money from me & still fail the consignment. really jiat liat liao! no choice, lim peh export or sell lelong cause no PSB, use at your own risk!

 

next time, Lim Peh no more take from that factory but go to another China Factory, import under the brand 'Lim Jin Keng' ( me very cunning ) , PSB test pass, every subsequent consignment pass, means this factory can trust not like the previous factory.

 

Lim Peh so happy, make money liao, no mind pay PSB to test since i am sure can pass & make money. happy ever after!

 

 

Edit: now Tan Jin Neow ( tan very fussy ) working in PSB reply why PSB no certify foreign certification for PSB. answer very simple.

 

If PSB standard no good, pple can kpkb complain to gahmen & force us to use 'better' standards. please complain, i just leepork back to my superior to ask for more $$$ from gahmen to improve our testing methods. no worry , just charge Lim Jin Keng more money for testing lah! they no happy also LLST, they sure pay one, just increase their PSB helmet price, these businessmen very 'keng' one, can survive.

 

If PSB staff negligent, chut probel liao, pple complain, we can catch him, sack even charge & jail the joker.

 

now if SNELL or other foreign body standard no good, can sg kpkb complain & force them to change, no? if skali they got staff negligent or kelong , chut problem liao, can we charge then or claim them, cannot right? but people will say not SNELL's fault but can claim from us PSB becos got PSB sticker ma! jiat lat, my cushy job no have liao kanna sacked. me no stupid one, me cover my ass first, me test me responsible, me no test , me no responsible, ji tao no sticker, life easier for me, me can sleep better at night, less stress, more energy to make babies, right?

Edited February 13, 2013 by bruce71
typos

[mechwira]

i think when arguing PSB vs SNELL/DOT/ECE etc, there are two main issues: 1)test standards and 2)implementation.

 

you can find details of test standards and testing methods of SNELL/DOT/ECE/SHARP all over the net, from highly technical documents for engineers to layman explanations for general reading. in particular the debate of DOT vs SNELL test standard i find interesting, because DOT standard requires a helmet to be soft whereas SNELL standard requires a helmet to be hard, and 'experts' are still arguing which type gives better protection.

 

generally the DOT/SNELL/ECE and the jap standard (cant remember name) are the most widely accepted globally in terms of standard. thats why even MotoGP requires either of these standards for the helmets worn by their racers.

 

can also read about British ACU standard, where the basic test is a simple impact point test on the sides, top and rear of helmet. so wat happens? cheap manufacturers produce cheap helmets of poor safety standard, and simply re-inforce the sides, top and rear where the impact point test will be. end result: poor quality helmets which technically passed the test but are actually very low quality in terms of safety. this was a real issue.

 

so what kind of standard is PSB? i have no idea because i cannot find any article or document which explains PSB standards and/or methods, whether technical or layman. and if nobody knows the standard or method, how to critique and compare with DOT/SNELL/ECE?

 

but remember, a few years a ago there was a case of a rider who died after his/her helmet split in two. it was found later that the helmet was indeed PSB approved. is it PSB conduct 'simple' tests like British ACU, resulting in cheap helmets technically passing the test but actually poor safety quality? no surprises, PSB did not respond to the article asking why the PSB-approved helmet split in two. so how to critique?

 

but i stand by my earlier opinion: PSB needs to exist to force riders to wear, and shops to sell, helmets of a minimum safety standard. without PSB, anything goes and thats even worse.

 

but implementation-wise, of course PSB wins. destructive batch testing on helmets sold on a little red dot of an island, of cos they are able to do very tight control. SNELL tries to be a global standard, and yes they seem to have a good random 'batch test' (random off the shelves), but globally wat percentage they test compared to PSB? and DOT like i revealed earlier even worse: very good standard, but then manufacturer test their own helmet and inform DOT that the helmets pass? you not going to wtf at that?

 

and one more minus for ECE/DOT/SNELL: they do not issue tamper=proof stickers like PSB. i see before 'replica' Arai made in taiwan which are identical to genuine arai, right down to the SNELL logo behind. how come? because all SNELL does is after they certify 'pass', they list the helmet model on their website and then tell the manufacturer they can display the SNELL logo. the manufacturer is the one who put the snell sticker.

 

dats why i think it is unreasonable to expect that just because a helmet has snell logo, it should automatically be taken as legal. PSB should allow dealers to submit documents showing they have the genuine helmet with snell certification, and thereafter issue the psb sticker without further testing.

Edited February 14, 2013 by mechwira

[bruce71]

i think when arguing PSB vs SNELL/DOT/ECE etc,...

 

you can find details of test standards and testing methods of SNELL/DOT/ECE/SHARP all over the net, from highly technical documents for engineers to layman explanations for general reading. in particular the debate of DOT vs SNELL test standard i find interesting, because DOT standard requires a helmet to be soft whereas SNELL standard requires a helmet to be hard, and 'experts' are still arguing which type gives better protection.

 

generally the DOT/SNELL/ECE and the jap standard (cant remember name) are the most widely accepted globally in terms of standard. thats why even MotoGP requires either of these standards for the helmets worn by their racers.

 

can also read about British ACU standard, where the basic test is a simple impact point test on the sides, top and rear of helmet. so wat happens? cheap manufacturers produce cheap helmets of poor safety standard, and simply re-inforce the sides, top and rear where the impact point test will be. end result: poor quality helmets which technically passed the test but are actually very low quality in terms of safety. this was a real issue.

 

so what kind of standard is PSB? i have no idea because i cannot find any article or document which explains PSB standards and/or methods, whether technical or layman. and if nobody knows the standard or method, how to critique and compare with DOT/SNELL/ECE?

 

but remember, a few years a ago there was a case of a rider who died after his/her helmet split in two. it was found later that the helmet was indeed PSB approved. is it PSB conduct 'simple' tests like British ACU, resulting in cheap helmets technically passing the test but actually poor safety quality? no surprises, PSB did not respond to the article asking why the PSB-approved helmet split in two. so how to critique?

 

 

bro mechwira , i highly respect your technical knowledge & am not picking up a fight. but ah beng like me find your post very long & makes me too lazy to reply. however, i pick up my lazybones & put myself to the grind to reply...

 

a) i am not saying PSB has better standards than those ang mo testing.

 

b) i am very surprised that after reading so much ( much more than i did btw, i am not your match ) that you may have overlooked some local mag, that carries an article on PSB. even though it is not highly detailed or technical, i only got a layman general idea of how they test. i won't repeat what is said there, it costs only $3 but it was from an old issue but you people are so net savvy, sure be able to find the source online, no need like my uncle method of paying $3 to read.

 

c) my tongue in cheek fairy tale is to show why asking PSB to accept foreign certification will not happen in the real world. as a sg, we should know how the civil service works by now. put yourself in their shoes, why would they risk their careers to take on responsibility for what they didn't test? i wouldn't blindly trust, i dunno about you.

 

d) i read somewhere someone qualified ( sorry forgot source so u have to trust me on that ) that even the higher end helmets will not protect above 40kph. i got a shock & thought he was exaggerating until i saw clips of what happens to cars with full metal body crash at 60 & 80. not a nice sight. even if we replace the bodies with foolproof metal, we still need airbags to cushion the force of the impact. eg. try slaming yourself onto a steel wall at high speed.

 

e) personally survive an impact to my head with a $25 helmet in an accident years ago. maybe my speed was not fast enough fortunately. personally believed if the speed of the impact was fast enough, even a 1k priced helmet will not save me.

 

f) the above point is in a mild rebuttal ( no offence ) as to why the helmet cracked. at high enough speeds, any helmet would crack. i believed there were cases ( local or overseas ) whereby higher priced helmets were cracked when the accident circumstances were bad enough. using just 1 example is not very ...nevermind. there are also egs of cheap helmets not cracking & higher priced helmets cracking. i assume nobody will dispute that, no?

 

g) even the highly established manufacturers & testing bodies do not dare guarentee that their helmets will not crack regardless of circumstances. i believed i read somewhere last time that even they themselves admit so.

 

h) even if they could come up with an invincible helmet, i doubt there is foolproof. look at Simoncelli death in sepang. ie. his helmet came off even when the corner was really tight & relatively slow. he was hit by edwards & rossi who were already slowing down, just not in time. in the real world, if he was hit by a 5 ton truck or bus? even if helmet no crack, it will also come off. result is the same. results are everything.

 

i) my point is that it is easy to demand more & more safety...some say you do not put a price on safety...i reply if you really mean that, you also mean you do not put a limit on safety...where does the line ends?

 

j) your initial part of the post where you mention even the expert bodies could not agree on which is safer is very insightful. what do you think about why they could have such differing views. it spis a bit like nobody can say they have cracked the mystery yet...

 

will continue after my toilet break...very siong long time no so serious lah, very stress leh!

 

ok i am back...

 

k) knowing how SG Inc. works, i highly doubt that PSB so clever go & design their own test standards & make their own machines to test. If anything, they most probably would have done the lazy way like me, buy foreign established machines, copy foreign established testing methods & use foreign established standards, code of practice, sop whatever even to word for word.

 

just ask superiors for the money, copy wholesale, no need to be creative or innovative. no trouble. anything wrong, PSB just say we follow 'international standards', u buay song is it? see, my ass is saved. no happy, complain to SNELL/ECE cause i only copy them only. hehehe!

 

sometimes, life can be really simple or complicated, perhaps they are not as hard working as you, probably just as lazy as i am, do everything by the book & just pass the buck. but never ever so kum gong go & kay kiang be responsible for SNELL or whatever...

 

me no lawyer, no school debater, lazy liao, i will continue to read this thread but forgive if i no reply. i am too lazy , me more intereted in beoing chiobus...

Edited February 14, 2013 by bruce71
engrish

[mechwira]

i never read that mag article talking about PSB tests, so if anybody has a link to it, pls share. i know i tried looking for details about PSB tests last time and could not find any. i really want to know how psb tests helmets, because i want to compare to DOT and SNELL standards, which i generally know how it is conducted.

 

i say again, i have nothing against PSB. i am not even criticizing PSB's standards, because like i said i dont even know wat their standards are. and my opinion remains that PSB should continue wat it is doing, for the simple reason that it ensures riders wear helmets of a minimum safety standard.

 

at the same time, i am also pro-SNELL and pro-ECE and i want to see these standards incorporated and accepted by PSB. if you are anti international standards, thats fine by me, i have no probs with anyone holding different opinion from me.