Are Harleys Really Worth It?

[wait4me]

You buy Harleys for the lifestyle, not the bike itself, the bike itself is a machinery that makes little real world sense, hell its slower than most class2, some 2As and even 2Bs...they don't make particularly good long distance tourer...most of them can't corner...most of them can't go offroad yet I think they make awesome bikes...IMO V-twins weren't meant to be on sportbikes, you'd have to cheat with displacement for them to be competitive, like how 4 strokes cheat with 2 strokes with twice the displacement

harley slower then 2b bike ??

sure a not ??

 

lets say north south highway ?

[fx]

the look.. priceless! kekeke...

 

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7029/6723569605_ff11b3c22b_b.jpg

[Jehuty]

harley slower then 2b bike ??

sure a not ??

 

lets say north south highway ?

 

Let's say a 1990 harley 883 versus a 2 stroke 150cc jackpot , the newer ones of course will leave them in the dust.

 

Anyway, I've seen Msian Indian bikes, haven't seen them here though. Not made in India leh, the defunct brand Indian.

[fx]

alamak.. go check & out the legendary 750 xr way before the 90's

anyway who buy & ride hd for speed? speed isnt everything u know..

 

[Jehuty]

alamak.. go check & out the legendary 750 xr way before the 90's

anyway who buy & ride hd for speed? speed isnt everything u know..

 

 

That's what I meant la, I think they are lek chill bikes, not for an adrenaline junkie, then again, how many that ride sportbikes really are insane adrenaline junkies to begin with, some really just buy to show off. Go so fast also no point.

[Jehuty]

alamak.. go check & out the legendary 750 xr way before the 90's

anyway who buy & ride hd for speed? speed isnt everything u know..

 

 

Ditto post

[DeusExMachina]

the look.. priceless! kekeke...

 

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7029/6723569605_ff11b3c22b_b.jpg

 

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb37/freezercharlie/svrider/donblattertvillage.jpg

[DeusExMachina]

IMO V-twins weren't meant to be on sportbikes, you'd have to cheat with displacement for them to be competitive, like how 4 strokes cheat with 2 strokes with twice the displacement

 

 

 

We hear that V-twins have less HP for the same displacement as 4 cyls. And because of that, Superbike regs allow V2s to have a 200cc advantage in their class.

 

We also hear that V-twins are more torquey than IL4’s of the same displacement. So ppl tend to believe it. They say, Harleys are torquey. Don’t play play.

 

So I collected some HP n TQ figures from similar displacement bikes of 4 cyl and V2 configs. All in the 1200cc class.

 

Kawasaki ZX12R (1199cc IL4)

Power 161.2 hp (120.2 kW) (rear wheel)

Torque 91.2 ft•lb (123.7 N•m) (rear wheel)

 

Ducati 1198 (1198cc V2)

117.75 kW (157.91 hp) @ 9,600 rpm (rear wheel)

90.14 ft•lbf (122.21 N•m) @ 8,300 rpm (rear wheel)

 

Harley Sportster 1200 (1200cc V2)

66 hp @ ?? rpm

79 lb/ft @ 4000 rpm

 

Harley V-Rod (1250cc V2)

123 bhp at ?? rpm

84.0 ft•lbf (113.9 N•m) @ 7,000 rpm

 

Ducati Diavel (1198 V2)

162 hp (121 kW) @ 9,500 rpm

94 lb•ft (127 N•m) @ 8,000 rpm

 

 

First thing you notice is that for 1200cc, the torque figures are remarkably similar (except for the Sportster, but we'll get to that piece of crap later, hahahah) The IL4s may get their TQ higher in the rev range than the V2s, but then they also have a wider range to play with. Plus they rev up and down faster than a V2. So we can simply factor out the RPM and look at the values.

 

Notice also that “torquey” Harleys suddenly don’t appear to be so torquey anymore? Yes, they do get their torque very early on, but surely that’s not enough to make such a big hoo-ha over? They rev up very slow. While the IL4s zip up the rev range like lightning. Looking at the figures, a H-D of the same displacement as a sportbike actually has less TQ and HP.

 

The Sportster is actually pretty asthmatic. In fact, it's downright pathetic for 1200cc. The V-Rod is better; the torque is there, but it's still lacking in HP. So maybe it’s just the gearing that’s giving the illusion that a H-D is torquey. Even the more powerful V-Rod loses out to the Ducati Diavel in terms of HP figures. The TQ figure is pretty close though. Look at scramblers and motards. They feel torquey because they’re geared very short.

 

So how about Superbike regulations which gives V2s a 200cc advantage over IL4s? After all, the 1199cc ZX12R has the same HP and torque as the 1198cc Ducati 1198. So we bring along a V4 literbike for comparison.

 

Aprilia RSV4 (999cc V4)

177.55 hp (132 kW) @ 12,500 rpm

85 lb•ft (115.2 N•m) @ 10,000 rpm[1]

 

At first glance, the RSV4 does appear to have more power than the 1198, but less torque. Understandable as it has 200cc less. But let’s bring in the Panigale.

 

Ducati 1199 Panigale (1199 V2)

195hp (143kw) @ 10,750rpm

98.1lb-ft (132Nm) @ 9,000rpm

 

Suddenly, it all seems so damned unfair that V2 superbikes shd even get a 200cc advantage. They have more TQ than the 4cyl literbikes, and now they also have more HP. Superbike needs to relook at the regs again, or we should wait for the next gen IL4s to exceed 220HP.

 

So now, all you H-D supporters were saying, No Way, H-D has more torque. Of course la. You’re all talking about the big boys like the Road King put up against the Ducati 1198s and the Diavels. But those are 1.2L bikes leh. Your Road King is a 1.7L monster. Let’s put it up against another 1.7L monster.

 

 

Harley Road King Screamin’ Eagle (1690cc V2) - http://www.stanshd.com/dyno.html (number 8)

105 hp @ ?? rpm

103 lb/ft @ ?? (low) rpm

 

Yamaha VMAX (1679cc V4)

174.3 hp (130.0 kW) @ 9,000 rpm

113 ft•lbf (153 N•m) @ 6,600 rpm

 

 

Now you see. The TQ figures are also about the same. Small diff. But the HP figures …. A lot of diff. But this is not conclusive that V2s have a power deficit. We know that for the same displacement, you’ll get roughly the same amount of torque, regardless of engine config. V2, V2, IL4, whatever… But we’ve also seen that you can get a V2 to have the same amount of power as an IL4… or even more power.

 

The only exceptions are H-D engines. They are way below par in power. And the TQ is just like that…. Normal. Where’s the super torquey H-D engine we heard about? It’s probably all about the gearing.

 

If you want speed, get a Duc or any Jap literbike. If you want all out torque and drag power, get a VMAX. If you wanna cruise around, you can get any tourer like the Concourse 14, STX13 or the new 1600cc BMW. That mother will have a ton of torque to go with it.

 

So where does that leave H-Ds?

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/profiles/icons/small/000/033/365/troll%20face.png

[Mr.Han]

So where does that leave H-Ds?

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/profiles/icons/small/000/033/365/troll%20face.png

 

for riders who look cool in leathers ?

[Jehuty]

Guess H-D never really bothered with tech, instead rather sticking to their main selling point. Heck, why even bother with EFI if you intend to be old school.

 

Now if only they could bring back 2 strokes or made rotary engine bikes into production ones, as far as power is concerned, those two make much more than any IL4 or V2 of the same capacity.

[b3nn]

That's such an ironic name for a bike of that class/type, really.

Should have called it Slothster, or something similar.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/profiles/icons/small/000/033/365/troll%20face.png

 

i lol-ed so hard. ok maybe we should keep this on topic, stop the bashing of the 45deg twin...

[ezzyoiler]

if you have the money...harley best..

if no dough..or not enough...then harley is a different storey...

 

yes harley is just marketters at work....ha ha if they get away with the patent on the exhaust note ..haha it will be a different bikers world...

[kmax]

if you have the money...harley best..

if no dough..or not enough...then harley is a different storey...

 

huh.. how come $$ and harley related ? most continental class 2 bikes are in same price range above 30k.. why harley need more $$..

 

yes harley is just marketters at work....ha ha if they get away with the patent on the exhaust note ..haha it will be a different bikers world...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_trademark

and to patent Vtwin sound ? it's lame attempt. all other vtwins produce same sound..

 

unlike multistrada.. with proper R&D for exhaust note.

 

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/04/its-official-ducati-is-the-sound-of-music/

[ezzyoiler]

huh.. how come $$ and harley related ? most continental class 2 bikes are in same price range above 30k.. why harley need more $$..

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_trademark

and to patent Vtwin sound ? it's lame attempt. all other vtwins produce same sound..

 

unlike multistrada.. with proper R&D for exhaust note.

 

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/04/its-official-ducati-is-the-sound-of-music/

 

you can buy state of art equipment ..anything provided you got money..

 

so to each his own....

no money or not enough money...the type of bike you buy will limit your choices,,

 

unless money got plenty...then every state of art equipment is the best...and worth it.

 

if money no issues...then everyone will ride harley..its the best money can buy... imho...yeah and a few other bikes too.

Edited January 27, 2012 by ezzyoiler

[DeusExMachina]

huh.. how come $$ and harley related ? most continental class 2 bikes are in same price range above 30k.. why harley need more $$..

 

 

They're not related of course. There's nothing state-of-the-art about a lower power agricultural V-twin.

 

The fact is that you're not paying for state-of-the-art when you get a Harley. You're just paying for a lot of badge... or brand.

 

 

Nothing else.

[ulysses_sc]

So where does that leave H-Ds?

 

For people who understand.

 

As Harley riders always say, if it needs explaining, you wouldn't understand.

 

:angel:

 

I don't understand...

[DeusExMachina]

For people who understand.

 

As Harley riders always say, if it needs explaining, you wouldn't understand.

 

:angel:

 

I don't understand...

 

LOL. That line is a cop out for "I can't explain why I paid top dollar for 1950s tractor technology"

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/profiles/icons/small/000/033/365/troll%20face.png

[ezzyoiler]

thats where the marketters hype ...is a classic success story based on perceived greatness.

 

i think it is wonderful for those who aprreciates the shakes...to their you know where.

[kmax]

you can buy state of art equipment ..anything provided you got money..

 

so to each his own....

no money or not enough money...the type of bike you buy will limit your choices,,

 

unless money got plenty...then every state of art equipment is the best...and worth it.

 

if money no issues...then everyone will ride harley..its the best money can buy... imho...yeah and a few other bikes too.

 

as mentioned above... what is state-of-art technology on Harley Davidson ?

 

Electronic Suspension ?

Traction Control ?

Ride by wire throttle ?

Slipper clutch ?

 

or did you even check what modern cruiser can do ?

 

http://www.ducati.com/bikes/diavel/diavel/index.do

 

http://www.starmotorcycles.com/star/products/modelhome/23/home.aspx

[kinwei]

[Jehuty]

as mentioned above... what is state-of-art technology on Harley Davidson ?

 

Electronic Suspension ?

Traction Control ?

Ride by wire throttle ?

Slipper clutch ?

 

or did you even check what modern cruiser can do ?

 

http://www.ducati.com/bikes/diavel/diavel/index.do

 

http://www.starmotorcycles.com/star/products/modelhome/23/home.aspx

 

Why do you need sport bike tech on a cruiser? A cruiser is supposed to cruise. Period. Sport bikes are supposed to go fast, if you're complaining a sport bike isn't comfortable, you shouldn't be riding one.

[DeusExMachina]

thats where the marketters hype ...is a classic success story based on perceived greatness.

 

i think it is wonderful for those who aprreciates the shakes...to their you know where.

 

 

Yep agreed.

 

They have a great marketing division. To be able to sell not only the bike as "great", but also to put together the lifestyle package that so many ppl fell for and bought into.

 

But then again, it's also because many bored white collar ppl want to play weekend warrior, buying their way into the 1%-er leather clad bad biker boy image.... LOL.... a change from their humdrum desk job.

 

Oh well. Some ppl need fantasies, right?

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/profiles/icons/small/000/033/365/troll%20face.png

[DeusExMachina]

Why do you need sport bike tech on a cruiser? A cruiser is supposed to cruise. Period. Sport bikes are supposed to go fast, if you're complaining a sport bike isn't comfortable, you shouldn't be riding one.

 

He said state-of-the-art tech. Not sportbike tech.

 

Better suspension is always good. Helps with ride comfort. It's not just for taking corners.

Traction control, again, always good. Helps you in the wet. Better since large CC engines have more torque, and cruisers generally fit higher mileage but lower grip tyres.

Ride by wire throttle? Why not? Refined throttle control. Might help with fuel economy and save on tyre wear. Also for rider/pillion comfort.

Slipper clutch? Maybe not necessary on a cruiser. But slipper clutch have been known to save you from tyre hop if you should drop gears suddenly or close the throttle abruptly.

 

Tech is always good. Don't be a backwards traditionalist.

[Jehuty]

He said state-of-the-art tech. Not sportbike tech.

 

Better suspension is always good. Helps with ride comfort. It's not just for taking corners.

Traction control, again, always good. Helps you in the wet. Better since large CC engines have more torque, and cruisers generally fit higher mileage but lower grip tyres.

Ride by wire throttle? Why not? Refined throttle control. Might help with fuel economy and save on tyre wear. Also for rider/pillion comfort.

Slipper clutch? Maybe not necessary on a cruiser. But slipper clutch have been known to save you from tyre hop if you should drop gears suddenly or close the throttle abruptly.

 

Tech is always good. Don't be a backwards traditionalist.

 

Well they did design those systems for sportbikes initially for well, going faster. Since you put it that way then yeah, I agree. Harleys still don't use them though, probably could do with traction control because their torque peaks earlier at lower revs as said before.

 

Seen a Harley rider throw himself into the tarmac from the get go because he put in too much gas somewhere near Plaza Sing if I'm not wrong.

[fx]

is it true hd use better raw material?

the metal & chromes seem to last forever? hehe..